Can you have a customs agent sign this at the aiport the day you leave? I dont want to make a 3 hour round trip drive if dont have too.

Possibly, but I wouldn't bet my trip on it.

It wouldn't be the first time "the form guy" wasn't around at my airport......

To some extent it depends on where you're going out of, I find smaller airports with customs stations to be somewhat more accomodating......you might be able to call ahead and schedule an appointment WELL PRIOR to your flight, the filling out and stamping of the forms only takes a few minutes at most. OTOH, stuff happens and as was pointed out above, if the agent gets called away for an urgent lunch date, coffee break, or, gasp, even real customs business, you might wind up with no form and if you don't have one you're going to have a difficult time getting back in the country, plus many countries will accept, rightly or wrongly, a 4457 as a "rifle permit" or whatever they call it and if you don't have some kind of official paper with your gun(s) on them, you might have trouble getting them in to where you're hunting.

All things considered, I'd make the drive ahead of time, but it is your call.

What Gato said.

The Customs office will have certain times of day that they are busy with incoming international flights. It is possible that if you call and are lucky enough to talk with a "user-friendly" agent that he/she will tell you a time to be there that will avoid their busy times and allow you to get your 4457 in a reasonably short period of time. The time of day of your departure may limit your options, however.

Another alternative to making an extra three-hour round trip is perhaps going to the airport the day before for your 4457 and spending the night in the airport city.

I would only count on getting your 4457 the day of your depature if you have talked with the Customs office and received reliable information that it is practical.

Make the drive ahead of time.

I agree with everyone, make the trip ahead of time you do not want to get stuck with no form. The customs agents are notoriously lazy, last two times I went to get some forms they just signed them and did not even check my rifles.

I just made the 3 hour round trip drive on Friday to my nearest customs office, and I don't leave for another month. So I'm of the "better safe than sorry" crowd.

BTW, it was incredibly easy once I found the right person to talk to about it.

We just did a 6 hour round trip last month to Salt Lake to get our new ones. Taking 3 rifles that didn't have them before. Kind of a bummer, but a cost of doing business, and did some shopping while we were there.

I looked up the phone number and hours of operation (9-5 PM) on the Internet, then called to make sure. When I talked to him and told him the hours on the Web, he laughed and said it was wrong, and they actually closed at 4:00. Pays to check.

I always have been a suspenders and belt sorta guy!

Thanks guys,
Sounds par for the course. You can always hope cant you.

David,
Do you go to the airport, or is there somewhere else in ATL. you can go?

I have read that a "Legal Bill of Sale" or at least a receipt for the item is as good as a 4457? Has anyone used this method?

quote:

Originally posted by Thunder Head:
Thanks guys,
Sounds par for the course. You can always hope cant you.

David,
Do you go to the airport, or is there somewhere else in ATL. you can go?

There is an office seperate from the airport at 4341 International Parkway
Suite 600
Atlanta, GA 30354

It is open 7 days a week from 8am to 5pm. Here are the directions they give on their website:

Directions to Port Office
North Atlanta: Go I-75 South, exit #239, Aviation Blvd., left turn, go to International Parkway, right turn. At the 2nd driveway turn right.
South Atlanta Metropolitan Area: Take I-75 North, exit Aviation Blvd. continue straight onto International Parkway. Turn right at the second driveway.

I believe Aviation Blvd. is also known as Charles Grant Pkwy.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys01:
I have read that a "Legal Bill of Sale" or at least a receipt for the item is as good as a 4457? Has anyone used this method?

That will work fine for return to the states. The Form 4457 is proof of ownership to avoid duty and/or taxes.

In some African countries the 4457 is viewed as license or authority to posses a firearm. (For this reason some have stated it is best to have firearms on a separate form for each.) A receipt will not work for this purpose and permission to import a firearm may not be granted without some hassle.

This is free and unsolicited advice for all you wannabees and prospective first timers to Africa concerning documents.

GET THE REQUESTED DOCUMENTS, AND GET THEM AHEAD OF TIME.

Don't ask what else will work. Get the damned documents that are specified and don't try to substitute. Don't wait until the last minute. If you want things to work with minimum hassles just do it right the first time. You are going to Africa, not the corner 7-11. You may be king at the 7-11, but it is a different set of countries and a different ballgame over there.

Coming BACK IN to the US is not as easy as going out, either. Cross your T's and dot your I's, and don't worry about it. Get cute, and the price you have to pay just might be more than you want to spend.

Sharpsguy gives very good advice. There are alomst always ways to get things done in Africa, but you really don't want to go down that road. It is just too easy to do things right the first time, compared to butting your head against the wall later on. Follow the rules - it really is that simple.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Make the drive ahead of time.

Amen.....

3 hours of driving will mean nothing if you get messed up and don't make your flight.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys01:
I have read that a "Legal Bill of Sale" or at least a receipt for the item is as good as a 4457? Has anyone used this method?

I'm not sure either is "as good as" a 4457, but either will typically get you back into the states with your property (eventually). As far as Customs is concerned, the 4457 has only one purpose, which is to provide evidence that you did not purchase an item abroad and thus owe duty on it (plus in the case of a firearm, that you are not attempting to import it without going through proper channels). A receipt that appears authentic enough to convince the Customs agent will work, but it is up to the Customs agent to judge whether the receipt is genuine. "Genuineness" is where the rub occurs.

For instance, I found a very nice rifle for sale on another forum that is in South Africa. Theoretically, I could agree to buy the rifle, get the seller to send me the SN of the rifle, then get a bogus sales receipt with that SN on it from some jake-leg dealer (or from my neighbor, for that matter, or could manufacture one from "Abercrombie & Fitch" with my computer's graphics program). Then on my return from hunting in South Africa, I could bring the gun with me and present the receipt as proof of prior ownership. You can see how a Customs agent might view a simple receipt or bill of sale with some suspicion. That's why the 4457, which is free and relatively easy to get (assuming you're not two hours from the nearest Customs office ) is viewed so much more favorably by Customs officials.

The other, and perhaps a more important factor, is that foreign officials view the 4457 as some kind of "gun permit", even though it is clearly not. Traveling with guns but without a 4457 listing them potentially exposes you to problems, ranging from delay to possible confiscation. I would be very nervous going hunting without a 4457.

Like I said in an earlier post, if you can get what you feel is dependable assurance that the Customs office can issue your 4457(s) in ample time the day of your flight, then that's fine. Otherwise, bite the bullet and make the drive. Besides, your wife will appreciate the trip to the city and a chance to punish you for your hunting trip by shopping and eating at an expensive restaurant.

Good advice above, but I would add that you should make mulitple copies of EVERYTHING, passport included, and have them in your carry on. As mentioned, some places view the 4457 as a "permit" and want a copy, and a copy is infinitely better than nothing if you happen to lose the originals or have a bag lost.

Three other hunters on my flight to Dulles last year were trying some fast talking to the customs agent explaining that they had to give their 4457s to the police in SA. I don't know how they ended up.

Bob

Here's a bit of info to add to the 4457 discussion. Not to hijack the thread, just to provide some food for thought.

The last time I obtained a 4457 was at the Albuquerque Airport Customs office. After I completed the form the officer signed it and then turned and walked to the copy machine. I asked him what he was doing and he replied that he was making an "office copy." Politely, I responded that he was not entitled to do so. The 4457 was my personal property. He said it was his office policy. I repeated my position and after a moments hesitation he gave the form back to me with a smile.

Don't let them do this.

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Here's a bit of info to add to the 4457 discussion. Not to hijack the thread, just to provide some food for thought.

The last time I obtained a 4457 was at the Albuquerque Airport Customs office. After I completed the form the officer signed it and then turned and walked to the copy machine. I asked him what he was doing and he replied that he was making an "office copy." Politely, I responded that he was not entitled to do so. The 4457 was my personal property. He said it was his office policy. I repeated my position and after a moments hesitation he gave the form back to me with a smile.

Don't let them do this.

Good advice. I crossed borders for decades. Customs can really bust your chops. Many customs employees abuse their authority by making implied threats, moving as slowly as possible when clearing you, and they are the only US Agency who has the right to conduct a search without probable cause. They can strip search you if they simply don't like your looks. You will have little recourse.

Get the 4457. It's good for as long as you own the item listed. It's required if you ever transit Amsterdam.

It's also a good idea to get one on any expensive foreign-made items you're taking offshore, such as a Leica or Zeiss binocular or a Nikon or Leica camera or a Rolex, for examples. I have. That way, some inspector with a bug up his ass can't charge you duty on that Rolex you bought ten years ago at your local jeweler.

I have a new rifle I need to get a form 4457 for. In the past I went to the customs office, got a form, filled it out and got it stamped. Yesterday I found the form on the CBP website. You can fill it out online and then print it. My qusetion is, can you take this form you printed out to the customs office to be stamped and signed or do you need to use one of the forms picked up at their office?

Take the printed one off the internet, take 3 or 4 copies of it and politely ask them to stamp all of them. [you will be leaving one in RSA if you stay or transit there, might want one in the gun case and another with your passport.

Call ahead, tell them you have the printed forms, if you are going to an airport they may want you to pull up out front and call again so they can come to the vehicle, check the serial numbers, and stamp them there, rather than drag the firearms inside. Ask them their proceedure!

Les

TWL and everyone else: The Customs Officers are NOT TO MAKE A COPY OF YOUR 4457. On the back of the form it reads: "The Customs Service does not maintain copies of the completed forms." If they ask to, or state that they are going to do so, HAVE THEM READ THE BACK OF THEIR OWN FORM.

Well, for trip #1 I went to Butte(2hrs+ one way) to the US Customs office there. Then a few years later they closed that office as far as getting a 4457 and I got to drive to Great Falls (3hrs+ one way). No big, if you don't like to drive for hours for no apparent reason, don't move to Montana...

Both times the nice folks in Namibia seemed to think the 4457 was my "license". The first time back the US Customs folks looked at everything three times and checked everything with extreme attention to every little detail. The second time the US Customs guy I ran into had grown up in Great Falls and went to MSU. Other than a causal glance at the 4457 they just waived me through without even checking the rifles or opening my bags. For trip number 3 I will hope for situation #2 but plan for #1...

I was just over to our Customs folks at McCarran International on Friday and got four more rifles 4457'd. I was informed over the telephone before I left that they are not open on Saturdays or Sundays for getting the 4457's, but only during the regular week from 8-4, which makes it somewhat problematic for those who work regular hours and must take time off from work. The gentleman that helped me this time was an older gentleman and was very pleasant; however I don't think he knew alot about firearms. During the conversation we discussed the TSA and their stupid assed antics and he definitely did not have any love for the TSA!!

No way I would take the chance. It is a 3 hour round trip for me also. Make a day out of it and take your wife or girl friend out to dinner.

As others have said, get the 4457 well in advance of your departure. Without one your entry back into the US could be a problem. If you did have to pay duty on some items, that would be a hassle, but not devastating. On the other hand if you can't get your firearm into your chosen Country you are hunting, real trip breaker. Get the forms, follow the rules, relax and have a good trip.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

The other, and perhaps a more important factor, is that foreign officials view the 4457 as some kind of "gun permit", even though it is clearly not.

I had this happen to me in Frankfurt. They asked for my documents showing I was "permitted" to have firearms. I showed the gentleman my 4457 and he was happy.

Yes, it's worth the time and gas to get get it in advance. You'd be much luckier than me if you managed to get it on the same day you were scheduled to leave!

Get a 4457 for each rifle and other expensive item you're taking with you. In my case, I have a form for each rifle/scope combo and another with my cameras, bino, rangefinder, etc. On the recommendation of my local Customs office I put everything with a serial number on a 4457. On my first trip I had everything on one form and it was pointed out that I may not take the same stuff next time. So on my second trip, I gathered up all the stuff I "might" take overseas someday and got a 4457 for all of it. Now I can just grab a rifle and its 4457 and head off without having to worry about what else is or is not on the form.

The customs people are a large group of idiots. They are civilian wannabes in uniform. Wouldn't make a pimple on a real cop's ass. So be ready to deal with a postal worker with a badge.
They are really bad. Not as bad as TSA, mind you. But bad.

Trophyman

quote:

Originally posted by Trophyman:
The customs people are a large group of idiots. They are civilian wannabes in uniform. Wouldn't make a pimple on a real cop's ass. So be ready to deal with a postal worker with a badge.
They are really bad. Not as bad as TSA, mind you. But bad.

Trophyman

That's generally the case. The one great exception is Minneapolis. I've cleared in there several times form Canada, encountering a great attitude.

The absolute worst is Miami. Detroit really sucks, too.

quote:

Originally posted by DesertRam:
Yes, it's worth the time and gas to get get it in advance. You'd be much luckier than me if you managed to get it on the same day you were scheduled to leave!

Get a 4457 for each rifle and other expensive item you're taking with you. In my case, I have a form for each rifle/scope combo and another with my cameras, bino, rangefinder, etc. On the recommendation of my local Customs office I put everything with a serial number on a 4457. On my first trip I had everything on one form and it was pointed out that I may not take the same stuff next time. So on my second trip, I gathered up all the stuff I "might" take overseas someday and got a 4457 for all of it. Now I can just grab a rifle and its 4457 and head off without having to worry about what else is or is not on the form.

My idea was this: I filled out (9) 4457's. Each one just one item different than the others. So if I decide not take the video camera on a trip, I grab the 4457 w/o it. Kinda pissed off the idiot behind the counter. But I set aside the day for this and told him so. After he did about 3, he quit and just stamped them all. I went to Kinko's and got all 9 laminated and keep them in my "Going to Africa" file.

Funny to watch a federal employee have to interact with a citizen that knows the law better than he does. He missed his break and it almost got into his beloved lunch hour. OH my God !!!!!!!! Can't let that happen, now can we? Timing is everything. Hit their office about 9:45AM and move slow. Drives them nuts. Stamp,stamp, stamp...... Funny shit right there.

Trophyman

i've filled out out so damn many that i finally just grab the envelope full and throw it in the case with my passport. Kinda funny to go through customs and start flipping out 4457's explaining that here's this thing on this one, here's this on another etc etc. the agents finally just tell me to get going

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i've filled out out so damn many that i finally just grab the envelope full and throw it in the case with my passport. Kinda funny to go through customs and start flipping out 4457's explaining that here's this thing on this one, here's this on another etc etc. the agents finally just tell me to get going

Yeah, me too.

Ditto.

Made the trip to the customs office saturday.

Get on I-85 20 min down the road sit in stop and go traffic for ever. Finaly find the place i am there a total of 5 min.
Get back on the road traffic backed up all the way from down town. Get through traffic and back up to speed about get hit by some dumbass.

4 hrs. road time 5 min. paper work,

God I hate Atlanta