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I am not sure what to believe. But it seems the cause of the crashes is what is supposed to be a safety feature??? Taking control out of the pilots hands is never a good idea. Airbus had a similar feature - this coming from an Airbus engineer - but removed it. I personally hate automation to the extent that one cannot over rule it. I just got a brand new BMW X5. It has all sorts of things set on automatic. First thing I did was sit in it, go through the handbook, and turn every damn thing off. Whatever the cause, very sad to see all these people die, and ultimately, Boeing making a great loss. One excuse I see being branded is that the software update which would have cleared this was delayed because of the government shut down!!?? | ||
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Why would a shut down delay anything?. But I agree on the automation part my uncle flew over 35,000 hours and his #1 rule of flying was , “Fly the damn plane”. Hard to do when automation is fighting you. | |||
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Government shutdown has NOTHING to do with it. Just more anti-Trump hysteria from the so called "Free Press". Fake news. Saeed, I agree with you on the automation crap. A little goes a long way and it seems today it is being installed in various products for nothing other than novelty's sake. We have a Porsche Macan. There are some great features, and some I can't stand. I like that when you get in it on a cold day, the heater works immediately (before the engine warms up) due to a heating coil in the system that fades as the engine warms. But I hate the fact that if you turn down the fan on either the driver or passenger side, it also turns down the other side. And this with the environmental system's "sync" control turned off. We had a guy in my Hornet squadron who always did automatic landings when coming aboard the ship. The system allowed for completely hands off landings!! In the Navy, all ship landings are graded and as such, being something everyone gets to watch via the onboard TV (Plat) system, much of a Navy pilot's reputation is built around his landing grades. An "auto land" trap automatically gets the top grades. So this guy had some of the best grades of the entire ship. Top ten grades in fact. And that out of approximately 200 or so pilots on board. One night, he was assigned a jet that was having issues with the auto land system and it was deactivated. Having to manually fly the plane, he suffered through 2 wave offs, and 4 bolters (landing long, past the wires) and had to hit the tanker 3 times before successfully getting aboard. So much for having the best landing grades. I always flew, regardless of the make and model of jet, with a minimum level of automation. Even flying commercial jets, I routinely hand flew the jet from take off to altitude and upon descent, from about 10,000' through landing. The other guys didn't like it because they felt it increased their workload having to monitor the flight more actively for deviations. I always told them, "yeah, that's the point isn't it?". Automation can easily cause one to be complacent. The old airbus joke being what's the difference between a new airbus pilot and an old airbus pilot: The new one says "What is it doing now?". The old one says "Oh, it's doing that again". Problem being that a lot of that airbus automation can't be overridden manually. I have a fair amount of time in the 737-800 but never flew the Max. It's still early in the investigations but it sure seems on the surface that an automation glitch is the culprit. I've long said planes would be cheaper (purchase and operate) if we backed the automation levels off to a point that it actually reduced the pilot's workload without attempting to overtake EVERY function of the human element. | |||
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As Trump said, maybe airplanes are becoming too complicated.  Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Reports are confusing. Some say the system was introduced to stop planes stalling, when the autopilot is off. Some say it can be overridden, others say it cannot. The reports of drastic altitude changes would seem to point to the pilots may be fighting it?? I meet many of our pilots on Emirates flights, and I always tell them they are no longer pilots, but system managers! They agree! | |||
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Man, you would have loved my uncle. Exact same perspective. He flew from 1941 until 2002. Started flying with Pan-am Africa from Accra to Cairo. Saw a LOT of changes over the years but believed pilots still needed to be pilots. | |||
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We see it on all the Boeing products, automatic landing, automatic takeoff, automatic collision control, automatic pitch control. Airline pilots watch the plane operate, they don't drive. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I heard that the engines were installed tilted slightly upwards so the plane could have a more powerful lift and the flaps on the rear were made to somehow compensate. A while ago I saw a video comparing the airbus and the boeing.The boeing was supposed to be designed so that the pilot could fly it.It was supposed to also look like a real cockpit and not weird like the airbus.So much for that. This incident shows that there is a lack of any common sense among the directors of boeing. Too much hashish smoking in the boardroom. | |||
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The big Airfrance crash a few years ago was pilot interface with equipment error. For some reason no one knows the pilots did not believe the anti-stall features and crashed the thing. Going to Bulgaria in October and this does have me worried. | |||
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Seems a lot like a runaway trim scenario in the simulator. Something you used to get at every flight review.( have not been flying much lately) The MCAS apparently may supersede all other control systems when engaged- So,if pitch control is flaky- Find the breaker and knock it out. May be a bit of an over simplification- but most likely it works- Appears there are not a lot of needle, ball and airspeed guys left out there (yes , I know, ---I'm old) | |||
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Anyone see this article? Two complaints from US pilots about nose down situations while in flight? There's a ton of possibilities that could have caused those problems but good grief, first crash, complaints, and a supposed fix, put it all together and Boeing should have grounded the planes after the first crash until the fix could be implemented. Then the second, and they still don't? Corporate greed at its finest. Possible complaints from US pilots? | |||
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They grounded the concord in 2000 for much less of a dangerous situation. | |||
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https://www.theatlantic.com/no...d-the-pilots/584941/ DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I think we are in a different world now my friend. Everything is connected with money now. And politicians are being paid. I cannot remember the title, but I remember reading a book written in the UK in 70's by someone who worked in the aviation industry. He basically said safety is immaterial, if will cost money. An example was mentioned of the seats falling all forward, in a concertina sort of way, because the mounting was weak, in an accident. To meet safety requirements, they strengthened the hooks on the seats by 50%. Leaving the rails the seats mount on untouched!! And the rail was the weak point! In the report, it looked very good, but in practice, it made no difference. Why do you think seats have become smaller and smaller in planes?? | |||
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I believe there was more to the Concorde than that Air France crash after takeoff. It may have been an economic decision with the tech crash and the high cost of operation and fewer passengers. However, I do wonder if any ended up in private hands after BA/AF quit flying them commercially. It was such a wild looking bird. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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On the Ethiopian crash from the pictures there was little to no fire. A crash on takeoff is usually a fireball. M | |||
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Here you go Marcus. A list of where all the Concord aircraft ended up. There were only 20 built with 14 entering service. One lost in the Air France crash, another scrapped for parts. The others are mostly in museums. https://www.daftlogic.com/info...-concorde-planes.htm | |||
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I noticed the same thing, my guess is the short flight, they kept fuel/weight down. Any commercial guys care to comment? | |||
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A witness was quoted as saying the plane went down trailing flames. I gather we take that with a grain of salt ? Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Todd, thanks for that link. Have you heard that Robert Bass brothers is spearheading the development of a supersonic business jet? https://www.dallasnews.com/bus...ersonic-business-jet I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Precisely! Nothing is what it used to be anymore. Everything is a computer. Everything depends on software. And we all know how reliable that is. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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scuttlebutt appears to indicate - Boeing pushed sales as : No need for advanced training over previous (recent) 737 models. as in no new/different sim time required, no type rating change | |||
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Profit over safety?? Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Good time to buy? | |||
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Give it another few weeks for the shit to really hit the fan when the black box data is fully released. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Anyone remember Michael Creighton's(sp?) novel Airframe? | |||
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Yep. I think that was his best book! | |||
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Several report say radar indications show the planes were oscillating! This would indicate the pilots and the auto system were having a fight with each other???? Was there no OFF switch?? The more Inread about this the more confusing this becomes. I remember saying how little I liked the automation Boeing introduced on the 767. I flew the simulator of that one. Great to have helpful automation for cruising etc. But I think allowing a computer to overrule a person is a re pie for disaster. | |||
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Yesterday I watched an interview with a Boeing Trainer. He said even if a Sensor went out The Safety System could be turned off by a switch. He also said the Co-Pilot only had 200 hours? | |||
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looks like other thoughts are similar to mine- attack like a runaway trim IF you know about how the MCAS works https://www.aopa.org/news-and-...boeing-737-max-fleet An airline pilot with 737 MAX-8 flying experience who wished to remain anonymous explained to AOPA that the new augmentation system affected the stabilizer trim but noted several ways to defeat it. “It doesn’t move any primary controls,” and MCAS doesn’t function when the autopilot is active. “When the autopilot is on, it isn’t even a player,” the pilot added. Switching off the electric trim overrides the system and cut-off switches are located on the center pedestal “near the red fire cutoffs between the pilot and first officer and both of them” can access the switches. The pilot also noted MCAS doesn’t work if flaps are extended in the aircraft’s normal takeoff configuration. A system malfunction “should appear to a pilot the same way a runaway trim wheel appears,” the pilot continued. “The result is that we have a runaway trim checklist—and a procedure” to work around it. You turn off the electric trim and go to a manual reversion. It’s something we train for. It is true that Boeing didn’t tell anyone about it [MCAS]—so that is problematic.” He noted that the control yokes on models with the new technology have a lighter feel than on previous 737 models and can be touchy at high angles of attack. “The idea of the new system is, if it trims a little down, you’ll pull the same [force] as in the old airplanes.” In previous versions of the 737, “When you pull five pounds of force on the yoke, you get five degrees of pitch change, and when you pull 10 pounds, you get 10 degrees” of pitch change. However, “On the MAX, it only takes about a 10-pound pull to get 15 degrees of pitch” because the aircraft responds quicker to input. “The trim system dials in about 2.5 degrees of nose-down trim in a little less than 10 seconds,” he added. “On the ground it feels different on the nose and the sight picture is a little different” from previous 737 models. “It’s [enough to be] noticeable,” the pilot said. | |||
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it appears neither Lion Air nor Ethiopian purchased the " optional" Angle of Attack display system nor the accompanying "Disagreement" warning light system for the AOA. These systems and some others are apparently deemed "optional" by the FAA , as well as other governments aviation regulating agency and airline internal requirements being individually determined. Having spent a fair amount of time flying using AOA -- I would have wanted the AOA display and because there are two AOA vanes- I would have liked to have the "disagree" warning light. | |||
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Being a former Navy guy, I also have a lot of time flying AOA. It's a great method. I prefer it to airspeed. In fact, in the landing configuration, AOA should be primary with airspeed being a cross check. And yes, the disagreement warning lights for the two AOA vanes would be a good idea as well. | |||
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Well, it seems the FAA delegated certification elements to Boeing???? How the hell can they do that?? | |||
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This one of the reasons we experienced pilots say to hold off on forming opinions based on media reports and wait to get the actual mishap report. I have yet to see a media report on aircraft related stories in which they got all the details correct. Take for example how the media puts on a full court press anytime a plane reports a landing gear malfunction. Choppers circle the field, cameras trained on the ailing plane, just waiting and hoping to get the fireball on TV FIRST!!! Yet, have you ever seen a single one of these episodes terminate with anything other than a rather uneventful landing roll out or skid? Reason being, for all the media hype, a landing gear malfunction is a relatively minor event. It might result in a bit of damage to the plane, but from a safety standpoint, it poses little problem. All that is a long way around saying it's more likely the Co-Pilot only had 200 hours in type, or in the 737 Max 8. Now, that might not be the case and it's possible he really only had 200 hours, but I doubt it considering the basic requirements to hold a Complex Aircraft, Commercial, Multi Engine, IFR rating, which he/she would have to have to be flying this type of jet in a commercial environment. I suspect the "200" hours report will be modified in time. | |||
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I'm not sure Saeed. The FAA designates pilots working for airlines to conduct check rides and "certify" pilots within their own airline as qualified to fly. I was an FAA Designee for my airline back in the day. I suspect the aircraft certification process operates under a similar "Designee" program. That's pure speculation on my part however as I have no experience in that department. If it is a similar program, I'd say there is a significant difference between an airline's pilots checking the proficiency of their fellow pilots and a company certifying their own aircraft for airworthiness. Without more info, that's just my opinion though. | |||
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I saw one report saying the DOJ is investigating?? | |||
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