Just came back from Bulgaria in January. This time going through Customs in Dallas, the officer entered all my gun info into his computer. My Name, Rifle Make, Mod and serial #.

Sometimes, they just wave you through without even looking at the 4457. Sometimes they do check the numbers, but never have I seen this. Is this new? Or have I just escaped the "Registration/Big Brother/Database entry" in the past few trips?

Hi Wendell,

Cannot answer your question but your circumstances cause me concern. If you have not done, please forward your information to SCI and NRA regarding the computer entries made by the CBP officer. It may be illegal and he may have committed a criminal offense.

Also, call and speak with a CBP supervisor at Dallas, please. Let us know what happens.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hi Wendell,

Cannot answer your question but your circumstances cause me concern. If you have not done, please forward your information to SCI and NRA regarding the computer entries made by the CBP officer. It may be illegal and he may have committed a criminal offense.

I'm with ya!

Came through JFK 2 weeks ago and nothing.

Might be worth someone calling US Customs and asking?

Entering the US in Los Angeles on my way back from Namibia in 2011 they checked the serial number of my rifle and according to the Customs official the serial number was listed as a stolen weapon. It took a few minutes to sort things out as the make and model were different but there may be some sort of list that they check serial numbers against.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaglav:
Entering the US in Los Angeles on my way back from Namibia in 2011 they checked the serial number of my rifle and according to the Customs official the serial number was listed as a stolen weapon. It took a few minutes to sort things out as the make and model were different but there may be some sort of list that they check serial numbers against.

Possibly. However, there is no need to enter your serial number into the system and store the information if it does not come back as "stolen". No crime has been committed, so there is no need to take your personal information.

They are creating a database of gun owners. Obama has not kept it a secret that he wishes to outlaw private firearm ownership.

A database of gun owners is always the first step ... always!

I sent an email to the NRA's legislative division with the details of the incident.

Happened to me in April last year coming back from Africa. I raised holy hell with Customs. They explained to me it was a check for stolen weapons. Okay, why not check that when we get the 4457 the first time?

We all need to start complaining about this. In April I asked why only guns were singled out to be inspected, when the intent of the 4457 was to ensure no foreign goods were imported. I asked why they didn't check my camera, or my computer.

The response from Customs,"Those things don't kill people, do they?"

They entered all my gun information in to the computer in 2008 and 2011 but not in 2013.

Returned from BC a week ago via Vancouver as port of entry into US. Information on 4457 was used as input into the agent's on-line system. Guncase was never opened and rifle checked for verification of information contained on 4457.

The Customs agent in Sweetgrass, MT entered my serial numbers in 1999 (I already had the 4457). That is the only international crossing at which that has happened.

George

The same thing happened to me in 2012 in Atl on my trip back from Bots.

It became a problem for me because the # on a Mauser rifle I had was the same as a # on a 9MM pistol of unknown manufacture that someone else had entered the US with a few weeks prior. The computer alerted that the same # was being used on 2 different guns, by two different people.

Two morons at Customs weren't informed enough to see and understand the problem. One moron did understand it, but didn't have the authority to simply pass me through. A supervisory moron had to be called who finally allowed me to re-enter my own country with my own personal property.

Pretty amazing for a variety of reasons. First, the morons did not have sufficient training to understand what the computer was telling them, and secondly, they had no authority to over ride the system with the application of common sense.

Consider this: what if I buy a safari rifle from an AR mbr who has taken it on a previous safari? The gun is in the govt data base under his name. I get my own 4457 for it and take it out of the country 2 years later. The exact same gun is now listed under 2 different names. Can you imagine what the morons at Customs might do when I attempted to re-enter the US with that gun? I think at the least they might confiscate the gun and require me to provide provenance in order to get it back.

The bottom line is that whether it is the intent of this program to identify stolen guns, it is in reality establishing a data base.

And speaking of collecting data, when I had 4457s completed at the Albuquerque office a few years ago the agent took my originals and walked over to the copy machine to make copies. When I asked what he was doing he said he was making "office copies". I told him I would not allow that and asked for my originals back. He agreed and returned them without comment.

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
The bottom line is that whether it is the intent of this program to identify stolen guns, it is in reality establishing a data base.

You could not be more right. It is apparent that the administration uses crime as an excuse to regulate law abiding citizens. After all, it wouldn't go over very well to tell the truth now, would it?

It is infringement on our rights. It also goes against the gun law that Regan signed into law that made full auto available under a Class 3 license only and outlawed the manufacture of new civilian full auto.

But, then again, Obama doesnt seem to care about Congress, laws and that pesky old dusty Constitution.

If I am not mistaken, I have had this happen to me during the last two re-entries into Atlanta from Africa. One agent was checking the numbers on the guns while the other had my 4457s and was imputing details into the computer. I have also had Customs run my information through their computers here in Las Vegas when obtaining my 4457s. I inquired and they said it was to make sure that the firearms were not stolen. Not sure what information they were imputing into the computer to check.

I have never had a customs agent make a copy of my 4457 when I obtained it. There is no carbon copy, nothing.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Freedom is always lost incrementally. It is rarely taken away all at once. Just the first step, I am sure. Well, only if history has a habit of repeating itself ....

I had to fill out a 4457 for my shotgun to take to Canada last fall for a waterfowl hunt. The customs agent in Denver never even looked at the serial numbers on the gun. He asked me to fill out the 4457 with the appropriate serial numbers and he simply signed the document.

I could have written anything on the paper and he would have never known any different.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
I had to fill out a 4457 for my shotgun to take to Canada last fall for a waterfowl hunt. The customs agent in Denver never even looked at the serial numbers on the gun. He asked me to fill out the 4457 with the appropriate serial numbers and he simply signed the document.

I could have written anything on the paper and he would have never known any different.

This is more common than not after 9/11. Absolutely ridiculous procedure.

The forms purpose is to PROVE you owned this item! If nobody looks at it, how do they know you own it? Another example of the "guns are evil" theory permeating the government.

The ridiculousness of this is that now importing a gun from anywhere could theoretically be done by filling out a 4457 with the importing guns information. That is ... if you have the balls to try to get a 4457 for a gun that you don't have with you. Maybe they ask to see it on that day?

I would never try this, but the point is that it can easily be done since nobody bothers to check the actual gun.

It was almost as if I were interrupting his "break". I added my binos, camera, etc. on the form and he acted like me filling out the form was taking up too much of his precious time.

I never thought about what you outlined, Wendell, but it could have very easily been done with this situation, not that I'd even try it.

Their procedures on 4457s vary from office to office (Port to Port), despite their own SOPs. For years they never asked for the document and today they rarely do. *Side Note: Funny that RSA uses our document in their SAPS process. I really believe it depends on who the agent is on any given day, as to how thorough or not they are. The last time I brought firearms to Customs to add on the 4457, they gave me an original of my document, stamped it and signed it, keeping a photocopy for their records.

quote:

The response from Customs,"Those things don't kill people, do they?"

Why do I get the impression that some anti-nut is behind all this?

In both 2009 and 2011 when I went to the San Antonio office to complete the 4457 on rifles, the agent on duty took my rifles to the back and entered information on his PC.

His response was that he was required to look up on their database on whether or not the firearms were on a stolen list.

Took too long, and he was typing away. I'm positive he was registering the firearms and my information into a database.

Also the last trip through Atlanta customs, the agents entered serial numbers of firearms into a database. Again, the explanation was that it was a requirement to ensure the firearms where not on a stolen list.

Rest assured, BIG brother is creating a database...

quote:

Originally posted by FOsteology:

Rest assured, BIG brother is creating a database...

Without a doubt.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

The response from Customs,"Those things don't kill people, do they?"

Why do I get the impression that some anti-nut is behind all this?

Bingo.

They were doing something with a computer when I came back in 2013 in Atlanta.

In 2011 and 2012 they didn't do this in Minneapolis.

I think its very dependent on which port you use.

As far as I know, the law prevents them from creating a data base of firearms in the US. Given the regulatory status in most other countries, they just have to ask them for any gun information and they can provide it, and thus they are recording foreign firearms permits/"potential arms trafficking" not your gun ownership status.

I also was told by one of the guys at ATL that my 4457 "was too old" and that I needed to get a new one. Somehow, I think my info was not entered into a computer, and it made someone's life a little harder. For some reason I always have them wanting to look at the guns and they do check the SN's; but at least at MSP, it seems its more the guy hunts and wants to look at the toys...

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
As far as I know, the law prevents them from creating a data base of firearms in the US.

You are 100% correct, however, US Customs guy sort of let the cat out of the bag when he took my 4457 and looked in the computer and said. "This gun isn't in our system. I need to enter the information."

Hard to tell me there isn't a gun registration scheme going on here.

Wendell:

This happened to us when we went through Atlanta coming back from Moz in 2012. They were training a new group of people on the process and they let us watch the whole procedure as they entered all the info in the database. I didn't really think much about it at the time but I sure feel different now.
When I get a little time I will relate my latest experience with the Customs people coming through Houston International in Jan. of this year. I promise it will curl you hair. I am sending a copy of the complaint to Washington as well as the Houston office, so I want to make sure it is done as well as I can do it.

Joe

At the first sign of this I ask the agent to take a minute so I can get name and badge number, and ask him/her to call their supervisor. I get their name and ID # and let them know that they will be hearing from my attorney the day after I get home, and that I will be in contact with my congressman/senators to request a formal inquiry.

I'd just suggest that this administration will hang them personally out to dry if a civil or constitutional based lawsuit is filed.

They generally get a bit concerned when you mention that their personal ass might be in jeopardy.

I've not been out of the country with firearms since April of 2012, but came back thru Atlanta with none of this BS.

I have been thru the Atlanta airport many times with firearms, last time was in August 2013, and they have never entered anything into a computer. Just checked serial numbers on form to the guns.

Back in 2007 when I came in thru Dulles they did not look at form or guns just waved me thru.

So you lend your firearm to your buddy for said hunt, what then Watson???

quote:

Originally posted by James Scott:
So you lend your firearm to your buddy for said hunt, what then Watson???

Good question. To be prepared, you get a 4457 for the gun. When you come back in and it doesn't match their "database" you just say you bought it from said friend.

Saying you borrowed it is a chance for some bored US Customs agent to try to do his job a little too well that day.

In July of 2013 the customs agent in Tampa entered my gun info into his computer when I took it in for them to stamp my 4457.

You know who else started a database of gun owners?


Hitler.

Our CBP officer in Iowa is a hunter and a shooter. When I go to him to get a new 4457 I allow at least an hour so we can discuss the trip and the last one I has on. He suggest that you never hand anyone your original 4457. I always take several color copies. Had a funny situation in Tanzania, an officer what'd a bribe to get our 4457 forms back from him. When we told him to keep them you should have seen his face. I now have a red stamp that says "CERTIFIED" that I stamp some of my copies with. It has worked wonders in Namibia, SA, and Germany. I have never had my info entered in a computer to my knowledge......Tom

And what do the Feds do with the information from the NICS?

I think it is more likely than not the information is not removed after 24 hours and that it has been, and will continue to be used as the basis for a firearms registry. It is simply too valuable to the feds to give up.

After all, until Snowden leaked the NSA information, how many of us thought the government monitoring was as extensive as it has turned out to be?

From the FBI's website:

Privacy and Security of NICS Information

The privacy and security of the information in the NICS is of great importance. In October 1998, the Attorney General published regulations on the privacy and security of NICS information, including the proper and official use of this information. These regulations are available on the NICS website. Data stored in the NICS is documented federal data and access to that information is restricted to agencies authorized by the FBI. Extensive measures are taken to ensure the security and integrity of the system information and agency use. The NICS is not to be used to establish a federal firearm registry; information about an inquiry resulting in an allowed transfer is destroyed in accordance with NICS regulations. Current destruction of NICS records became effective when a final rule was published by the Department of Justice in The Federal Register, outlining the following changes. Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. If a potential purchaser is delayed or denied a firearm and successfully appeals the decision, the NICS Section cannot retain a record of the overturned appeal. If the record is not able to be updated, the purchaser continues to be denied or delayed, and if that individual appeals the decision, the documentation must be resubmitted on every subsequent purchase. For this reason, the Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) has been established. This process permits applicants to request that the NICS maintain information about themselves in the VAF to prevent future denials or extended delays of a firearm transfer. (See VAF Section below.)

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
And what do the Feds do with the information from the NICS?

Anyone who thinks they just let that data go is seriously drunk on the cool-aid.

Agreed.

The percentage of us who use a Form 4457 is very small compared to the percentage that fill out the Form 4473 when we buy a firearm.

I also seem to recall the feds have been caught before with NICS data in violation of the 'rules'.

I've never had them look at or even ask for my 4457 when I re-enter the US. I have lots of things on it that I might not even have with me.

I carry three COPIES,not originals for 1) guns and scopes, 2) optics, 3) cameras. The 4457 has been reviewed and serial numbers checked by Customs on guns and scopes in Atlanta on all six trips i have made to Namibia. They have not done
similar checks on other 4457 forms or items.

Being of a curious nature and actually knowing something about computers I have one question. Exactly HOW do you know the Customs Agent is capturing the information just from his entering it in the system. Do you have access to the code of the entry program? Did he tell you he was building a permanent file of your data? Exactly how do you know it is kept? I know that every stroke you type on this forum is kept by the owner because of the search capability. What does HE use it for - I have absolutely no idea.Just because something is entered by Customs doesn't mean it is KEPT by Customs does it? I'm sure spying is rampant and violation of privacy does not exist any more but tell me EXACTLY how to prevent it from happening. Exactly HOW does the Govt check to see if an item is stolen unless the stolen item is listed somewhere to check against and to do that I would imagine you would have the enter the serial number of the item being checked. Unless you have some magic way of doing this what is wrong with the Customs practice. Last time I got 4457's at Customs in Tucson the Agent checked every items serial number against a stolen goods list and this included Binos and Cameras. I believe everyone is really paranoid over the Snowden files and the NSA. With SOME good reason of course.