When you think of owning a custom rifle is it more important to you that you have exactly what you want or is it more important to you that you have a custom rifle made by a certain person.

Or, to put it another way, if you could order the exact same gun, with the same components, from many different makers at the exact same price, with the exact same level of after sale service, would it make a difference to you as to which person made the gun.

And, if the exact same thing were made by many different makers, but at varying cost levels, would you choose based on cost or based on the maker. Exact same product!

The entire point of a custom rifle is to order something unique that matches your ideals from a builder who's tastes and talents you admire.

It's not a very unique custom project if everyone is already making them.

I am fortunate to own several custom rifles; four of which I have personally commissioned. The point of commissioning your own rifle is to get exactly what you want. Of the four I personally had built I have used 2 different metal smiths, 3 different stock makers, and a single engraver. I can honestly say no two stocks are exactly the same. Price point is an indicator of experience and talent. It is not the only indicator but it is definitely one of them. Assuming equal talent and skill there will still be subtle stylistic differences that may cause you to prefer one over the other. For instance there is a lot of variation in a round fore end and a swept cheek piece as well as the sculpting at the transition between the wrist and the nose of the comb between different makers. These same stylistic differences are apparent in the metal work as well. So I content no two smiths can build the exact same gun.

I chose my first metal and stock smiths based on looking at several examples of work and then picking based on what looked best to me. In other words our styles matched. Of those one retired and one passed on. I picked my next stock maker purely on reputation and location without looking at their work. This proved less than fully satisfactory. The work itself is very good. But those subtle stylistic differences caused me to go elsewhere for my next projects. I went back to deciding on a maker whose work appealed to me by examining several examples. All is well once again. Even so there are still differences between my preferred makers.

It is also important to talk with them personally. You want to work with someone you get along with. You will have questions along the way. Things may happen. A good relationship is important or at least someone who does not mind answering questions.

Can different makers build a rifle you will find pleasing and enjoy? Yes! Will they be the same? No! Can you enjoy a rifle from each? Yes, if you do your homework beforehand.

So for me... who makes my rifle is far more important than price. A good working relationship can evolve into a friendship.

I understand what a custom rifle is and why a person would want one. That is not the question I am asking, nor am I asking for a definition of what a custom gun is. We can just leave it at something you specifically want that you cannot get from a factory.

Again, if you can get it (exactly what you want) from a number of different makers and the only difference is the price point, do you choose by maker or do you choose by price. Simple question. Two possible answers: maker or price.

It is a moot and absurd question because NO TWO CUSTOM RIFLES ARE THE SAME.
In fact, if you talk with any of the better custom builders you will learn there can be considerable differences in quality between "identical" factory rifles.

But to play along with your game, if I could find an H&H Royal for the price of a Mossberg I would gladly buy it and if a Mossberg was priced the same as an H&H Royal I would still choose the Holland.

458

Your response indicates you did not understand the question. The choice wouldn't be between a Holland and Holland and a Mossberg. It would be between two guns that are exactly the same made by two or more different makers at different price points.

I am not playing a game. I am asking a question.

Lindy: You have way too much time on your hands...

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
458

Your response indicates you did not understand the question. The choice wouldn't be between a Holland and Holland and a Mossberg. It would be between two guns that are exactly the same made by two or more different makers at different price points.

I am not playing a game. I am asking a question.

I'm sorry, but I would have a hard time the way it is posted. I have a very few smiths that I use and pay their price or I won't buy one. I ain't going to use a cheap price guy because he can't produce the same quality work.

While I must agree the likelihood of a big name smith and a local turning out equal quality products at a significant different prices is REMOTE. IF I happened to find 2 exactly EQUAL rifles one by a big name one not I would let priced decide.

I simply don't have an unlimited bank account and I buy a rifle to shoot not as an investment. That said I have seen a big name have an Oops.

Ah, somebody finally understands the question.
Thank you Ramrod.

Duane

Not too much time on my hands. Wondering about how people go about purchasing a custom rifle, and more importantly why some makers are so much more successful than others.

Butch
The question was not whether a "cheaper" maker could or could not produce the same quality of work. That was a given in the question. Both makers can and do produce the same quality of work and use the exact same materials. The only difference is the price point.

Again, that is the given question.

Ain't gonna happen.

Some makers have higher price points because their work is consistently of a higher quality. They get more because they have earned it. Yes, if all else is indeed equal than by the one that costs less. But from my experience all is not equal. And because of that you buy the one that is “nicer or better” in your eyes regardless of price. Is there a point where cost far exceeds the benefits of “better”? Yes, but that is subjective based on view point and what an individual is able or willing to spend.

I would theorize that quality shops will charge what the market bears.

In many custom product fields, the maker can determine price by the backlog of work he/she faces. If they have a backlog of work, they need to raise prices. If they lack work...they need to lower prices and/or do more advertising.

That's the pure economics answer...which has some holes.

In my personal view, rifles have a certain style when they come from specific makers. After a while, you can look at a rifle and see subtle features and take a good guess at who made what.

If those style features are what you want, then that's your rifle...if not, find a different smith.

Some folks focus hard on accuracy...and they may have specific features they desire in terms of bedding, barrels, reamers, and so on...some want traditional techniques and would scoff at bedding or similar.

It's just a matter of what you want and are willing to pay for.

Once again, my question is simple.

1. You want to buy a custom gun.
2. There are a number of makers who make exactly what you want and they all make it the exact same way using the exact same materials.
3. They do not charge the same price. For purposes of this question it does not matter why they do not charge the same price.
4. Do you buy based on the maker or do you buy based on the price.

Next you'll be asking for the names of the cheapest makers. I hate a rich man that pleads poor.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
Once again, my question is simple.

1. You want to buy a custom gun.
2. There are a number of makers who make exactly what you want and they all make it the exact same way using the exact same materials.
3. They do not charge the same price. For purposes of this question it does not matter why they do not charge the same price.
4. Do you buy based on the maker or do you buy based on the price.

Ok, Let's look at it in a real world example.

Rigby historically used Mauser barreled actions in one of their product lines. They received barreled actions from Germany, stocked them, added a few minor things, and solid it as a Rigby.

They do this today in the product line known as the Big Game rifles.

Mauser also sells the exact same barreled actions, built on the same production lines with the exact same parts by the same technicians.

Your difference is a machine made stock from the UK or a machine made stock from Germany. A few minor features can be added by Rigby...color cased parts, some engraving, etc. Mauser also offers this in their previous catalogs...not sure if they still do.

Which do you want, the price for the Rigby labled version is higher...

If you want the Rigby name, customer service, and to have your name in their customer book...you pay the extra money.

If you just want the rifle...you would likely buy the Mauser brand rifle.

Both are are mechanically the same (minor minor differences).

Figure out what matters to you...and buy what makes you happy.

Personally, I want a Rigby...but I see the value in the Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
I understand what a custom rifle is and why a person would want one. That is not the question I am asking, nor am I asking for a definition of what a custom gun is. We can just leave it at something you specifically want that you cannot get from a factory.

Again, if you can get it (exactly what you want) from a number of different makers and the only difference is the price point, do you choose by maker or do you choose by price. Simple question. Two possible answers: maker or price.

Simple answer... MAKER. However, if you think several or even two makers can make exactly the same thing, you are missing something.

Guys, please don't feed the trolls

I get it, it's like which twin sister do you decide to marry.

after being screwed over with shoddy work or charged for work not done i choose a particular smith.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

I get it, it's like which twin sister do you decide to marry.

It os a simple question with a specific set of criteria and two answers: "price" or "maker".

Is Price the brunette, or the redhead?

quote:

Is Price the brunette, or the redhead?

I am aware that Jack O'Connor opined about the differences in rifles being akin to the differences between a brunette and a redhead, but I do not recall the entire story.

Its irrelevant here anyway because the criteria states there is no difference.

Back in the day - 50s & 60s, General Motors made automobiles on about three frames. The large frame was the standard Cadillac or the biggest Oldsmobile. All of the equipment was standard on the Cadillac but was extra (optional) on the Oldsmobile. Coming off of the assembly line the two could have the identical equipment (with the exception of specific motors). There was virtually no difference in performance or comfort, however one had the name Cadillac while the other was merely an Oldsmobile and for that there was $$$ difference. But then there was the aspect of re-sale and depreciation, so the buyers of Cadillacs were not complete spendthrifts. Same applies to custom rifles.

quote:

Same applies to custom rifles.

But not to my specific question.

Taste for Caviar on a beer budget. That's ok!

I am a teacher and regardless of what you hear I don't have the disposable income to buy a Simillion or one of those David Miller classics.

However, I can buy a Brno22f or a 22h or a Sedgley Sporter and recognize quality. There are a lot of semi-production rifles that shoot well and are done well.

However, the answer you are looking for is that there are gunsmiths that make a high quality rifle for the working man. There are fewer and fewer of them out there but they are there.

Right now there is a very nice Dressler Dakota on First Stop. I am not selling it but if I had the coin that I believe an attorney would have that gun would be very high on the list.

Sincerely,
Thomas

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

Is Price the brunette, or the redhead?

I am aware that Jack O'Connor opined about the differences in rifles being akin to the differences between a brunette and a redhead, but I do not recall the entire story.

Its irrelevant here anyway because the criteria states there is no difference.

If there is no difference then the choice is purely up to the individual and they need not justify it to anyone.

I am not asking for justification, and each individual can make up their own mind if they wish to answer or not. Its clear you do not, which is fine.

Lindy, let me try.

When you commission the rifle that you want done exactly to your tastes, it does not yet exist. You cannot compare it with any other maker, cheaper or no. At the beginning you hope that for the money quoted you will get the rifle you desire.

The maker with the good name, has more chance of achieving your wishes and making a rifle you will be pleased with, than the possibly lessor known builder who is charging you less.

So if you have the money, and really want it done right, you choose the famous maker, because then you have less worry that you will send a lot of money and end up with a custom rifle that doesn't meet your desires.

Do you see?

Then of course, part of having a custom rifle sometimes is also to own something by that maker. People will pay more for the cachet of a name. This is human nature. I too would like to own something by Rigby. But the famous maker is famous because of his quality, and so this is why he gets rifle commissions and why he should get yours.

If you cannot afford to buy from the well known maker and must settle for the lessor known cheaper builder, then you have the risk that you wont get what you want, and you also lose a certain cachet in the name too - because the name brand is a warrant of quality. Otherwise it wouldnt be famous. Right?

CH

I am not looking for advice or instruction on how to purchase a custom rifle. I am just looking for an answer to a simple question.
But thank you for your participation.

You have misunderstood my answer. I am not giving you either advice or instruction. I am helping you towards the understanding that your question is not relevant.

It may not be relevant to you, but it is to me. Again, thank you for your participation.

Ceteris parabis

Price.

Is it more important to have exactly what I want or to have it built by a certain person? Implied in the question is that two guns are being made that both end up being exactly the same with the exception that they were made by different gunsmiths. So the first part of the question is that both guns qualify as being made exactly as you want, the only difference being the maker. One of the elements of resale is the demand for a certain gunsmiths work. A well-known gunsmith will already have a premium built into his product and you'll pay for it, but there is little risk. An unknown gunsmith will not have the premium built into the price, but if his work is first rate you may be getting a bargain that will appreciate along with the gunsmith's fame.
To answer the question, it is important that the rifle matches my specifications regardless of who made it, but I also value the personal investment of the gunsmith. For example, I have a rifle that CP Donnelly made for me. He started with an FN commercial 98 action, made the barrel and fitted a stock to it. CP passed away from cancer about nine years ago. I had been a friend of his since the early 80's. Now whenever I use the rifle there is not only the joy of having a product that is "just right", there's the joy of remembering CP and holding a monument to him.

having a rifle made exactly how you want is important, but knowing who made it can also be of great value.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Is it more important to have exactly what I want or to have it built by a certain person? Implied in the question is that two guns are being made that both end up being exactly the same with the exception that they were made by different gunsmiths. So the first part of the question is that both guns qualify as being made exactly as you want, the only difference being the maker. One of the elements of resale is the demand for a certain gunsmiths work. A well-known gunsmith will already have a premium built into his product and you'll pay for it, but there is little risk. An unknown gunsmith will not have the premium built into the price, but if his work is first rate you may be getting a bargain that will appreciate along with the gunsmith's fame.
To answer the question, it is important that the rifle matches my specifications regardless of who made it, but I also value the personal investment of the gunsmith. For example, I have a rifle that CP Donnelly made for me. He started with an FN commercial 98 action, made the barrel and fitted a stock to it. CP passed away from cancer about nine years ago. I had been a friend of his since the early 80's. Now whenever I use the rifle there is not only the joy of having a product that is "just right", there's the joy of remembering CP and holding a monument to him.

having a rifle made exactly how you want is important, but knowing who made it can also be of great value.

Best answer yet...

What's clear to me is that the members here don't like entertaining hypothetical questions!

Pick your price point and go from there. There is no such thing as having multiple people producing the exact "same". The rest is just mental masturbation.

"What's clear to me is that the members here don't like entertaining hypothetical questions!"

I have very specific reasons for asking the question. And I believed that most people who didn't understand the question just wouldn't answer it. And I was correct.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
When you think of owning a custom rifle is it more important to you that you have exactly what you want or is it more important to you that you have a custom rifle made by a certain person.

OK, I will bite... While I generally scoff at those who pay a premium price for a designer label, I do acknowledge that sometimes the name behind the product makes a difference. Given the conditions stated, (while acknowledging that it is a purely hypothetical situation) I offer the following completely worthless personal opinion:

quote:

Or, to put it another way, if you could order the exact same gun, with the same components, from many different makers at the exact same price, with the exact same level of after sale service, would it make a difference to you as to which person made the gun.

Yes. I would weigh my decision based on two criteria:
1. Higher potential resale value from a better known maker if I intended to one day resell it.
2. Personal relationship to builder. If I had actually met them, (vs a mail-order build) and if I liked them, and they were easy to get along with.

quote:

And, if the exact same thing were made by many different makers, but at varying cost levels, would you choose based on cost or based on the maker. Exact same product!

This is a tougher one. The answer is Yes to the Maker, but... the amount of the delta factors into the decision.
Would the higher sticker price command a higher resale value that would offset enough to make it worth doine? Probably. But, might the cheaper one from Billy the whiz kid (who makes damn fine rifles but doesn't have his reputation established yet) be a surprise in the long run? In other words, might you be buying a Honus Wagner rookie card?!

If I'm not worried about the "investment" and just want a shooter that you never plan to sell then the custom becomes a commodity and ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL (we are dealing with the hypothetical here!) then price rules the day.

If you disagree or don't like that last statement think of it this way: You are asked to participate in a blind test of two second hand custom rifles. You examine them and the craftsmanship on each is identical. Same grade of wood, same 24LPI checkering pattern, same level or polish and blue. Both feed and function flawlessly, and at the range both produce consistently sub-MOA groups with a variety of ammo. They have all fit and features that are EXACTLY what you are looking for. The seller either doesn't know who built them, or refuses to tell you. (and you will never get to know!) However, the asking price for one rifle is $3000, and the other is $15,000.

You are looking for a nice shooter, not an investment. Which one do you choose, and why?

And yeah, this is just mental masturbation...

I love the idea of owning fine custom guns, but I couldn't pick either because I don't have money. If I had to go into debt it would obviously have to be the lower priced gun for $3000.