The action is about to go to the engraver to have something engraved on the top of the front ring. I am feeling a little conflicted as to what I should do. I am ALMOST certain that I will go with what original Rigby's say. Even though Rigby's standard "Rigby 416 Big Game" is more of a caliber designation than a makers mark, it kinda feels wrong somehow. What do you guys think? If you have other suggestion, feel free to give it up.

Question:
Poll: What should I put on the front ring of my Selby 416 Rigby repro?

Choices:
Rigby, 416, Big Game (Just like the original)
416 Rigby Big Game
416 Rigby
Skitini (I read in a magazine article that Selby's native trackers could not pronounce 416 Rigby correctly and said "Skitini" instead.
Die, You Big Bastard!

 

Something like this reeks of class. From what I know there is nothing illegal about doing it as the Rigby marking on the barrel are what marks them as a Rigby.
In order to be polite, and answer those who might be somehow offended, you could call or write the owner of Rigby in the US and ask his permission. I know it's been done before.

I'd go with Rigby, Big Game. IMO, the chambering/caliber should be on the barrel only.

Go with the original markings. You'll never regret it.

I'd go with:

“416 RIGBY”

Or,

“416 RIBGY
FOR
BIG GAME”

Some examples:

Good God, are those yours too??

Despite tradition, the Rigby just has too much bold coarse lettered information on the receiver ring to be tasteful.
I prefer this style, ie; stippled receiver, calibre on barrel[but without the gold]

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Good God, are those yours too??

Why, yes. They are part of my collection...

of photographs.

I wish they were mine but alas, only in my dreams.

First, did you already post some progress pics? how'd I miss them?!

I like simple, and like the marking on the barrel for caliber, I like gold too. stippling rocks. I like crests and other action markings on the ring. BUT, if you are wanting it to look like Selby's I suppose doing it identical would be the way to go.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
First, did you already post some progress pics? how'd I miss them?!
Red

No progress pics yet. The oversize barrel blank was just finished up by Dan Pedersen. My maker is now going to machine the site bases in integral with the barrel, and turn the rest of the barrel as close to original as he can just going by the pics and the little info I have gleaned from Layne Simpson's ten year old article in Rifle magazine. I think that many of you will be disapointed by the fact that Duane Wiebe's 4mxj bottom metal is going to make the gun look a little bulkier than Selby's rifle. The 4mxj is a little deeper and narrower than that on the Selby Rifle, but it is the best option that I could come up with at this time.
Matt

If it were mine, I would tend to follow Trax or ForrestB's thoughts on the markings but as you noted it is a reproduction and much depends on how far you wish to vary from the original.

Who is making the rifle for you?

Best of luck with your rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
Who is making the rifle for you?

My gunmaker does not wish for me to make his association with this project widely known. He has health problems and only works when his health allows. I almost had to twist his arm to get him to do this project. What I can tell you is that he is a former member of the ACGG, and is a Mauser guy through and through. He has converted a standard mauser to 416 Rigby once before, but does not want to make it a regular gig.

I looks like I am going with my original notion, which is to go with what the Selby rifle has engraved on its front ring: Rigby -- 416 -- Big Game. I have some photo's of another original rigby built on a standard 98 action that has the exact same inscription. Thanks for your input fella's. By the way, "Die, You Big Bastard!" was just a gag. I'm sure most you knew that. I hope.

WE knew you were kidding and are really planning on having it engraved on the butt.

I'd go with engraving just like Phil posted. Those rifles make me want to cry - I want one!

quote:

By the way, "Die, You Big Bastard!" was just a gag.

I was thinking an inscription something along the lines of "Do not drill scope mount holes on front receiver" would have been dual purpose, but figured it would be too many words. I opted then for the original, being it had less words.

Can we see some progress photos please!

I voted for it even though I figured you might be kidding. I want to have my safety engraved different, instead of "fire/safe" I want it to say "click/bang". but I may come to my senses before having to decide for sure.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

That one would be my choice. Tradition demands it!!!

As an aside, I love that Rigby felt the need to inform their customers that the .416 bore was for big game.

As opposed to what? Pesky varmints?

quote:

As an aside, I love that Rigby felt the need to inform their customers that the .416 bore was for big game.

As opposed to what? Pesky varmints? Big Grin

Ya know, seems like ground squirrels are the next most popular target of the big bore crowd next to cape buffalo. Rigby may have been onto something though. Imagine how dull life would have been if all gun manufactures did like Rigby. "Winchester's 270 Bore For Elk."

My Mahillon, which is contemporary with the original Rigbys, has engraved on the receiver ring:
MAHILLON
BRUXELLES
416
MAGNUM

Wouldn't be bad to put "Rigby's 416 Magnum" on it.

Was your Mahillion made on a standard action? I've recently been told that some were. They were made in Belgium, correct?

I think if you drive a 1973 Volkswagon Beatle with an imitation Rolls Royce front end on it and wear a $3 Chinese watch that they poorly try to make look like a real Rolex then you should put some of that Rigby bullshit on the front ring.

If you do not drive a fake Rollls Royce and wear a fake Rolex, then I think you should not make a fake Rigby. Having stuff engraved on the front ring is not necessary to have a rifle that is in keeping with the Rigbys such as the one carried by Selby.

You asked for opinions, so there you go, you can add my opinion to your list. If youe life is a fake and a lie, then make the rifle as such. If you appreciate the history and traditions, and yes, the romantic lore of the days gone by, then honor the past by making a nice rifle in keeping with those traditions. But do not go to the lengths that it becomes something that man would consider out right fraud.

BTW-If you engrave some Rigby bullshit on the front ring then you can run into trouble entering other countries and re-entering the US with the rifle. You have to list the maker's name on the Customs forms going and coming back. Having Rigby bullshit on the front ring effectively tells a customs agent in any country that it is a real Rigby rifle. I do not know how much international hunting experience you have and how many continents you have hunted on, but there is a very real chance that at a very minimum you will have to pay a far larger bribe to get the rifle through a country's Customs . And upon return to the US you could be hit with taxes like you just bought a real Rigby and were now importing it into the US. Worse things have happened over far less fraudulent things with rifles and Cutsoms Departmetns.

I think you should put the caliber on the barrel without making it look like an ersatz Rigby. For example, my Rigby Farquharson barrel is marked, "SPECIAL .450 BORE BIG GAME RIFLE" and "FOR SPECIAL CORDITE CARTRIDGES BULLET 480GRS". You could say something like, ".416 BORE BIG GAME RIFLE" "FOR RIGBY'S NITRO EXPRESS CARTRIDGES BULLET 410GRS". Then you could stipple the front ring.

Alternatively, on the front ring, ".416 BORE BIG GAME RIFLE" and on the barrel, "FOR RIGBY'S NITRO EXPRESS CARTRIDGES BULLET 410GRS".

The plan all along is to have the barrel indicate that it is not a true Rigby. The inscription on the front ring is only a caliber designation, not a maker's mark. I do thank you for your opinion Mark. I think your analogy is a little extreme. I would modify your example by substituting the volkswagon with a Bently at the very least!

Marc, no one on this thread was talking about "faking" a John Rigby rifle.

To my mind, marking a rifle ".416 Rigby" is no different than marking it "Rigby's Special .416 Bore for Big Game" - both are caliber markings. One is more elaborate and traditional than the other, but so what? Both indicate the caliber of the rifle.

Are you next going to try to tell someone that they can't mark their .375 H&H Mag. with the more elaborate and traditional name of that cartridge: ".375 Holland & Holland Belted Rimless Magnum"?

I may have even left an errant "Nitro Express" out of the .375 H&H name - you know the British fondness for throwing in a random "Nitro Express" here and there - but you get my point.

BTW, you will find that the maker's mark on a genuine Rigby is found on the barrel, generally "John Rigby & Co.," along with Rigby's London address.

Don't get any ideas, now, Matt!

CM-

Yes, it was intenional to have a couple of extreme examples . It was to make you think about it. Some men really would see you as doing something intentionally fraudulent.

Mike-

First things first-i am not telling anyone what they can and can't do. CM asked for an opinion and I gave him mine , which is the same as lot of other gun enthusiasts i know.

Having dealt with many countrys' Customs offices, as well as God only knows how many US Customs Office Ports of Entry and Customs Officials, i can tell you, writing "Rigby's Special .416 For Big Game" on the front ring WILL cause problems either going AND/or coming back if he flies out of the country a couple of times or more. COuld happen on the very first trip. As much as I sing the praises of the professionalism, friendliness, and helpfulness of ATF agents I have dealt with all over the country, I can pretty much say that Customs Officials are diametrically opposed to the ATF guys and gals. I am just speaking from a lot of experiences through many ports of entry. Lots of experiences.

It does not matter what anyone writes on the barrel, just so long as the caliber designation is in keeping with the ATF guidelines. TOTALY DIFFERENT than writing stuff on the front ring. Again, speaking from lots of experience with ATF agents as well as Customs agents. And almost having to pay import taxes on a rifle I built one time! So trust me YES, writing "Rigby's .416 For Big Game" or whatever it was on the front ring IS 100% different than writing the entire Constitution on the barrel if he felt like it. Write 10 gunmakers' names on the barrel and it is 100% A-OK. Start writing maker's names on a reciver ring and it is an entirely new ball game. Trust me on this one. You don't want to have to find out the hard way. Barrels and recivers are 100% different when it coems to the ATF and Customs 9any country's Customs Office).

I do need to say that there have been a few Customs folks who were OK. But damn if they are not in the minorit. It is weird, because the UPSPS, ATF, and any other agents I have dealt with (including what VERY little dealings I ever had with the IRS) were just about 100% positive. The only reason I could figure out is that Customs officials often get slammed with 400+ people wanting to clear customs at exactly the same time. Then as soon as they catch their breath, another 747 load hits them. But even in remote border crossings that arew car traffic only and see very little traffic, the Customs' folks attitudes were as a rule lower than any other government agency i have dealt with. They just are a lot more cynical and seem to enjoy aggrevating and holding up folks for no reason.

Marc, your experience and mine are diametrically different.

I've been out of and back into the USA with firearms many, many times, to, from and through Canada, Argentina, England, Scotland, France, the Netherlands, Germany and three African nations.

The only thing anyone EVER cared about concerning my firearms were the serial numbers!

Nothing else! As long as those numbers matched the paperwork, everything was copasetic.

So I am just going to have to respectfully disaree with you on this one.

One of my hunting rifles is so old that it doesn't even have a serial number. It has a patent no., however, and that has served the purpose well enough!

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
Was your Mahillion made on a standard action? I've recently been told that some were. They were made in Belgium, correct?

It is on a square bridge magnum action. Made in the early 30's. Pretty much a ringer for a Rigby but no grip cap.
Yes, they are Belgian.

quote:

The only thing anyone EVER cared about concerning my firearms were the serial numbers!

Seems like having a custom agent read the serial number on your 4457 and the serial number on your rifle would clear up any issues.

Mike-

Glad you have always had smooth sailing. Another thing for anyone travelling to "under developed" parts of the world needs to remember is that it is one thing for the Customs official to let you in their country, but it may be quite another for them to let you out. That has hit me before too. They know they have you by the cods, especially if you are trying to get on the only plane leaving the country for the next 4 days. Friends of mine used to drive into and out of Russia every week. THeir rule of thumb was for every liter of vodka
they expected to pay to get INTO Russia, they alloted 3 liters to get them OUT of Russia. Just a non-gun example I was thinking about a while back that made me chuckle and think of old friends.

Also VERY suprised to hear that no one in any country or US Port of Entry ever checked your rifle make. I can gurantee you that if the ATF gets wind of folks changing names on rifles' reciever rings they will take notice. Get the right Customs official actually taking the time to check the maker of your rifle it could get ugly if you start writing other makers' names on it. What goes on a barrel is totally OK. well, again, as long as you have the caliber marked as the ATf requires. you cna write any maker's or makers' name/names on the barrel. The address are OK too. Reciever rings, well, that gets ugly real fast. If all you had was the RIbgy wording on the ring an dnothing else, an official will see it as a Rigby rifle.

And yes, my very first trip out of the country when I got back in the US I almost had to pay taxes on my rifle that i had built a couple of years earlier. I had called ahead to find out what paperwork I needed and was given the wrong info. THANK GOD it was when I lived in Arkansas and had only lived in AR and Louisiana my entire life. Trust me, my North Louisiana Redneck Coon Hunter accent was THICK!! I think that, combined with all of the begging and pleading and offering to do anything he wanted me to do was why he finally relented, gave me my rifle back, and talked to me like a red headed step child about what Customs form I needed the enxt time i crossed the US border with a firearm. What I honestly believe it boiled down to was that he (a Yankee in the Detroit airport Customs Office) thought someone who talked like me was too stupid to understand how to follow directions to the men's room, much less have the correct Customs form filled out. I was begging, pleading, grovelling, offer sexual favors, offering to eat broken glass, and anything else I could think of so i could get my rifle back. i spent every dime I had to go on that hunt and there was no way in hell i could have gotten my rifle back any time soon.

Speaking of guns being held in Customs a long time, there was the time when I had a rifle AND shotgun held up in the Helsinki airport for over a year. But I think that had more to do with a jilted lover in Finland than it did with the folks in Customs.

Enough talk of jilted lovers and me offering sexual favors to a strange man in an aiport, the serious thing to think about is the ATF. There is no gurantee what an agent will do. Even if you eventually prevail, it could cost you dearly between the start and end of the nightmare ordeal. And there is no gurantee you would ever get the gun back if soemone took issue with it. It is the same thing I was saying recently in the thread in gunsmithing about cutting off a serial number and putting the same number back on the gun after you cut down a reciever ring. I told folks to never take legal advice from an internet forum unless they are prepared to have their strongest piece of evidence being a printout of the thread. "But Your Honor, a bunch of anonymous guys in unknown places told me it was OK!" Yeah, that one will go over real well. I gave the example of me getting multiple opions on the ATF on different topics (including moving the exact same serial number on a receiver) in writing, from different agents in the same department. You cna hand one agent a written opinion from another equally qualified agent and it may not help you at all. Ask the ATF about putting different makers names on the RECEIVER of a rifle. Again, put whatever you want on the barrel-makers' names, addresses, whatever and it is fine so long as you have the caliber properly marked as dictated by the ATF.

What would I do if it were me? I would stick to the maker's name and serial number on the reciever and put anything related to Rigby on the barrel. NO ONE I know of puts caliber info on the action. If you want, put that Rigby info on the barrel. The pics posted in this thread showing the caliber right in front of the ring on the top of the barrel shank looked pretty damn good to me. Same postition and layout of thereciever ring info you want, just move it to the barrel. And as a rule I am against gold inlay under almost all circumstances. I think it is classy to have the maker's name on top of the barrel, where it is read when holding the rifle with the muzzle to your left, stating soemthing like "Joe Blow - Gunmaker" and either after or under that put where he lives and works, such as "Livingston, Montana." And if you like go ahgead and mention Selby by name or knick-name on the barrel too if you like. Again for the millionth time, barrels and reciever rings are two entirely different things. It is a hell of a lot harder to go to prison or pay 5+ figures in attorney's fees over a barrel vs. a reciever. There are rules governeing barrels, but fewer and different than recievers

OH! BTW-hand cut engraving totally kicks the ass of every other way to mark a barrel. Look at a lot of high end guns and see the hand cut engraving vs. engraving with any type of machine. Handcut wins eevry time. I have a pantograph engraver and think Jim Andersons's (gunmker I think is is AR screen name) CNC mill's abilitites to engrave is toitally awesoem. Wish to God I had that capabilityin my shop!!! but on the highest end gun or soemthing just special, I would always go with hand cut engraving.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
Seems like having a custom agent read the serial number on your 4457 and the serial number on your rifle would clear up any issues.

if only it were always that simple...

quote:

I think if you drive a 1973 Volkswagon Beatle with an imitation Rolls Royce front end on it and wear a $3 Chinese watch that they poorly try to make look like a real Rolex then you should put some of that Rigby bullshit on the front ring.

Very funny...........I can't disagree with the logic though.

Since your intent is indeed in making a replica (like a modern fiberglass Shelby Cobra), I say go for it all the way and put exactly what is on the original Rigby.

A Fugazy is still a Fugazy whether it is a cheap knockoff (Rolex) or a good fake (phony Picasso). Since you're putting good money into it I say go all the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Mike-
It is a hell of a lot harder to go to prison or pay 5+ figures in attorney's fees over a barrel vs. a reciever.

I think you are expecting that ColoradoMatt intends to pass this build off as an original Rigby. Of course, this never even entered into the conversation.
He is free to put whatever he wants on the rifle - action or barrel - as long as he doesn't represent it as anything other than what it is. Even then, for fraud or attempted fraud to occur, the rifle would have to be offered and sold as a genuine Rigby. The suggestion that there is any legal danger in using the "Rigby" moniker on a gun for his personal use is simply unfounded.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Mike-
It is a hell of a lot harder to go to prison or pay 5+ figures in attorney's fees over a barrel vs. a reciever.

I think you are expecting that ColoradoMatt intends to pass this build off as an original Rigby. Of course, this never even entered into the conversation.
He is free to put whatever he wants on the rifle - action or barrel - as long as he doesn't represent it as anything other than what it is. Even then, for fraud or attempted fraud to occur, the rifle would have to be offered and sold as a genuine Rigby. The suggestion that there is any legal danger in using the "Rigby" moniker on a gun for his personal use is simply unfounded.

Allright then, YOU start scrubbing maker's marks (and the serial number too, BTW) from a receiver, and then engrave another maker's name on the reciever. and of course put the serial number back on. Then call the ATF and tell them how proud you are of your "reproduction" and misrepresenting who made a reciever, and throw in the fact that you had to remove the original serial number as engraved by the actual manufacurer, but that you were careful to haev the same number engraved on the action with the new manufacturer's name on it, but the same serial number is in a different place on the action. Go ahead and drive to the nearest ATF office and show them your "reproduction."

THen go to the Customs office and fill out the forms (4457? been a few years since I filled one out) and when you have to list the manufacturer, ask the agents if they want you to list the real manufacturer, or who you are now representing as having manufactured the action. They will likely take little notice, which does not matter at this time. When it it matters is when some Customs agent wants to play Boy Scout and actually perform their duties as they are supposed to (i.e.-check what they are supposed to check when you bring the rifle back into the country). THis is the guy who can really rock your world. This is assuming you had no problems in whatever country/countries you traveled to and from. When the CUstoms agent in each country, including this one, wants to know who made the rifle, you damn well better tell them "Rigby" or you are screwed. Or of course you can tell them DWM, BRNO, or whomever, and then tell them you had that name filed off and the name of another gunmaker engraved on the action and get ready for the fireworks.

Look, I don't make the mother fucking gun laws for the USA! If you have a problem with it, then YOU talk to YOUR government representinve! He/she can listen to to you and maybe do something, BUT NOT ME! Just like I don't make the god damned speed limit on my road, I also don't make the laws about filing off serial numbers and maker's marks on rifle recievers. I am really dumbfounded by all of this and for the life of me do not understand where the disconnect is. I really don't give a flying fuck if you believe me or not. And I really don't give a damn if you go to prison or pay $20k to a lawyer to keep your lying ass (that is what it is when you start changing maker's names on recievers) out of jail. DO WHAT YOU WANT-I DON'T CARE! But I also don't want to hear the first peep of complaining if you go to jail or lose your house just because you wanted to write some Rigby bullshit on your reciever ring because you thought it was romantic and made you think of Meryl Streep in Out of Africa or whatever it is that is motivating you to break federal gun laws.

Just punch your cal. in like this Israel converted 7.62 mauser. ....

Damn, chill out.
You are assuming that the serial number will be removed. Why?
Tell me, if I were to take my original Rigby to another country, which serial number would I put on the 4457 form? The engraved Rigby number or the stamped Mauser number? It is the Mauser number which holds water for the BATF here. To them, the Rigby number is nothing more than Rigby's form of cataloging their work. The Mauser number is the indicator of the action's date of manufacture.

The scenario you are presenting has nothing to do with this project.
Anyway, Rigby never was a manufacturer of any Mauser actions either.
Also, please explain which federal gun laws would be violated here. Seriously.

Mark:
Have a question for you...when converting military M98's, many people surface grind the crests, or 2-3 letter manufacturers codes of the top of the front receiver ring. So wouldn't that get you in real hot water with the ATF since you are "scrubbing" the maker's marks off? People for many years have put G&H side mounts on Winchester M70's. I have one myself and I can tell you, it is about as permanent of attachment you can get without soldering. So I have a nice M70 that has the maker's mark "obliterated", if you will, so do I quick get the torch out and melt it down?
If any of you have those altered M98 actioned rifles, where the original maker's mark was "scrubbed" off and some other maker's mark added, such as, but not limited to, Rigby, H&H, Purdey, Cogswell and Harrison, Westley Richards and the like, please let me know and I will take them off your hands so you don't get in trouble. I will even pay the shipping so it won't cost you a thing! By the way, this offer goes for guns by Pachmayr, G&H, Sedgley, and any other fine, but supposedly illegal, guns by custom gunmakers.
As for CM's original question, duplicate Selby's gun as closely as you can....and then post pics!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Then call the ATF and tell them how proud you are of your "reproduction" and misrepresenting who made a reciever, and throw in the fact that you had to remove the original serial number as engraved by the actual manufacurer, but that you were careful to haev the same number engraved on the action with the new manufacturer's name on it, but the same serial number is in a different place on the action. Go ahead and drive to the nearest ATF office and show them your "reproduction."

THen go to the Customs office and fill out the forms (4457? been a few years since I filled one out) and when you have to list the manufacturer, ask the agents if they want you to list the real manufacturer, or who you are now representing as having manufactured the action. They will likely take little notice, which does not matter at this time. When it it matters is when some Customs agent wants to play Boy Scout and actually perform their duties as they are supposed to (i.e.-check what they are supposed to check when you bring the rifle back into the country). THis is the guy who can really rock your world.

Mark
I respect you greatly, but I have to disagree with most everything you said.

The ATF and customs does not care who manufactured the rifle, all they want to confirm is that the rifle you are bringing back into the country is the rifle you left with.

I know that you realize that "Rigby" did not manufacture any bolt action actions, and that "Rigby" has been used by more than one manufacturer, including one in this country. Hell, I believe "Rigbys" are currently being manufactured by two different companies on two different continents.

Do you really believe the ATF or customs care if Matt puts "Rigby" on the front ring?(They don't)

No offense, but I wonder if something unrelated to the issue at hand could be clouding your response.

Having been into and out of a lot of countries while packing rifles I have found out that my attitude has more affect than mundane things like who might or might not have built my rifle so long as the serial numbers matched the one I originally declared.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
...mundane things like who might or might not have built my rifle so long as the serial numbers matched the one I originally declared.

+1