I have been checking around at dealers in my area into FFl fees for having gun parts shipped to the dealer and i can't believe the broad range of fee's they charge. I have gotten quotes for as high as 125.00. The cheapest was Bass pro shop, they were 30.00. Gander Mountain wants 100.00. I can understand paying a fee, But 100-125.00 is a bit rediculous.

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:
I can understand paying a fee, But 100-125.00 is a bit rediculous.

Many FFL, specifically small-time, non-store front dealers, look at transfers as an easy $30 and a good way to create goodwill with potential customers.

Many of the larger dealers look at transfers as helping to enable the internet to steal "their" customers. Consequently they charge large fees in an attempt to discourage mail order transfers.

The store front dealers in my area tend to be a PITA to deal with.

I'm kind of surprised you can find any dealer in California willing to do it for $30.00.

Then...finding an out of CA dealer willlng to put up with CA "special rules" is another hurdle.

I heard there was some grass roots appeal starting up...anything come of that?

Actual profits from selling a firearm is about 10%
give or take.....few gun sales generate more than that!

To net $100 one has to sell a $1,000 gun.....and it's not the norm at all.

I'd think an FFL dealer would be happy to net $25 where he didn't have to invest anything but the time to fill out the fed form.....

i charge thirty dollars to receive a transfer from another dealer. it isn't hard or real time consuming but i wish it was as easy as just filling out a federal form.

i have heard of chuckleheads that want 10%+30 bucks and to make it worse, they want to "charge" sales tax ... which, of course, they can't report to the state as they didn't make a sale on the rifle

if its more than 30 bucks, outside of the PRC, then you are being robbed..

"stealing customers" .. yeah.. robbing a customer is a way to ensure they are never back

quote:

Originally posted by max(hm2):
i charge thirty dollars to receive a transfer from another dealer. it isn't hard or real time consuming but i wish it was as easy as just filling out a federal form.

Why must it be from another dealer?

I've sent well known smiths that post here a copy of my drivers license and that was accepted.

In many cases there is no requirement to provide data from the sender except the return name and address.

you are correct. it doesn't have to be from a dealer . just so government issued identification is used i accept the gun. as long as i have a name, address and date of birth on valid identification, i am ok with the transfer. i should have said out of state transfers. it also applies to within state transfers.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by max(hm2):
i charge thirty dollars to receive a transfer from another dealer. it isn't hard or real time consuming but i wish it was as easy as just filling out a federal form.

Why must it be from another dealer?

I've sent well known smiths that post here a copy of my drivers license and that was accepted.

In many cases there is no requirement to provide data from the sender except the return name and address.

Not a law but a rule with some FFLs.

It is their own made up rule, as it certainly is not required by any state or federal law. So. Ill regular fee is 15 to 30.00.. Some idiots say Batf has threatened taking their linsence away if they do not charge sales tax. An idol threat because it is not the law. Several long established gun stores have told the ATF to piss off when they get threatened with this crap and ATF tends to back off.

Well, my "go to" guy for FFL transfers closed for a year while he went Cowboy action shooting. It was grim but I survived.....now he's back and has drastically upped his FFL transfer fees to $15.00 (he was $10, damn inflation).........

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
It is their own made up rule, as it certainly is not required by any state or federal law. So. Ill regular fee is 15 to 30.00.. Some idiots say Batf has threatened taking their linsence away if they do not charge sales tax. An idol threat because it is not the law. Several long established gun stores have told the ATF to piss off when they get threatened with this crap and ATF tends to back off.

atf is a federal agency .. sales tax is a state issue.

they, the dealers, that want to charge sales tax don't have a leg to stand on. they are not selling the gun or inventory, they are selling a LABOR service .. most states have sales taxes laws .. one of them being the status of sales tax .. on ALREADY taxes labor

its bullocks, as those guys would then pocket the sales tax ...

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by max(hm2):
i charge thirty dollars to receive a transfer from another dealer. it isn't hard or real time consuming but i wish it was as easy as just filling out a federal form.

Why must it be from another dealer?

I've sent well known smiths that post here a copy of my drivers license and that was accepted.

In many cases there is no requirement to provide data from the sender except the return name and address.

Not a law but a rule with some FFLs.

yup.....and more and more they are bypassed by the business.

Maybe this is their goal... but I won't do business with them.

There are a handful of local small dealers in Alaska who only charge a flat fee of $10 per transaction. Shop around, if you can't find a dealer to accept $20 or less, keep on shopping.

It is only legal for an FFL holder to make the transfer at the address on his license or at a gun show, no where else.

For a legitimate store front operation, $35.00 is normal around here. Some refuse to do it at all. Their thinking is they are competing with their self. If you read the gun industry journals they support that idea.

It is accepted in business circles that at the end of the year if you did not average a 30% profit margin eventually you will go under. You may stay afloat for a while for less but you wont make enough profit to pay the utilities, payroll, insurance, maintenance on the building and contents, license fees, advertisement, etc. Sometimes a kitchen table operation or part time home garage outfit can do it for less but not a full time real store front operation.

For several years the majority of my business was gunsmithing with a small amount of gun sales and trading. I did transfers for $25.00 to accomadate gunsmithing customers and promote good will. I finally had to give it up. If you dont have an employee waiting on the counter anyway it takes you away from your work. To the public it appears not to take up much time but I found out by experience that it is very time consuming. First the customer contacts you about receiving the firearm. Then a lot of them phone you wanting to know if it has arrived yet. Then when they come in to pick it up and make the transfer the majority of gun enthusiasts want to "talk guns" and believe me some of them can really talk. A lot of these guys just want to "hang out". I try to explain as politely as I can that I would like to visit but I must get back to work. I honestly believe that if I kept a log it would have averaged about one hour per transfer.

I wish everyone could read Bob Brownells article on the subject of making a gunsmith/gunstore a profitable operation that will make you a full time living, not supplement to a retirement check. Every day, every hour that clock is ticking and you must average a certain amount per hour to even get by. These days if you consider all expenses and overhead it would be at least $50.00 per man hour and $90.00 man/machine hour.

Ive been on both sides of the counter. Guns are largely a recreation/hobby. We tend to forget that when someone is trying to make a full time living he must make a reasonable profit or he will go out of business like so many do. The ones who discount labor and markup to the bone wont be around very long unless they are part timers just supplementing their hobby.

Guns America has a FFL lookup for transfers on their site. Put in your zip or area code and do a search and you will see what local shops or individuals charge. In my area it is $25 - $30 on average.

BigB

I live just south of JBrown. Getting a gun sent in is usually a pain in the ass.

Locally its about $150 for the transfer and they want to charge sales tax even on used guns. Others call it a "use" tax. One place that just changed owners wanted $150 + sales tax + 20% value on gun.

The best I have found is a dealer that charges $75 and no tax. Its a 30 minute drive from my house but its also on the way to/from work. Makes it easy to stop by on the way home.

Greg

Most places around here get 25.00-30.00, I convinced one of the pawn shops to put his listing on GB and such and do it for 15.00


He's happy, as it's an easy 15.00 bucks for him and he doesn't collect tax on it either.

Thanks BigB, none of the large places i checked were on the list but i found several as low as 15.00 on there. Thanks for the tip.

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:
I have been checking around at dealers in my area into FFl fees for having gun parts shipped to the dealer and i can't believe the broad range of fee's they charge. I have gotten quotes for as high as 125.00. The cheapest was Bass pro shop, they were 30.00. Gander Mountain wants 100.00. I can understand paying a fee, But 100-125.00 is a bit rediculous.

You don't need an FFL to receive 'gun parts', just guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
I wish everyone could read Bob Brownells article on the subject of making a gunsmith/gunstore a profitable operation that will make you a full time living, not supplement to a retirement check. Every day, every hour that clock is ticking and you must average a certain amount per hour to even get by. These days if you consider all expenses and overhead it would be at least $50.00 per man hour and $90.00 man/machine hour.

where might a copy of that article be found? i'd be very interested in reading it!

Gunbroker has a nice service that lists a bunch of FFL holders that have very reasonable prices.

While I was in FL I purchased a Mauser VZ24 action off Gunbroker not knowing about this service. Anyways I ended up having to go with a store that wanted $50. Which was the best deal I could find. I shopped at several places and almost every single one of them wanted $100 or more just for the transfer. And some of them even tried to talk to me like I was stupid and make a huge deal out of how much hassle a transfer is and try to justify the cost of it. When in reality all they have to do is have YOU fill out a form then make a phone call. Then make you obey to the wait period if that particular state requires such.

I typically have paid,$20-$30 but no more. I live in a rather remote area and I've gone through an individual FFL guy or the local hardware store. $100+ sounds like a rip off to me.

Craftsman has hit the nail on the head! I would add that in CA the new laws require that you receive permission from the state before you can bring any firearm into CA (legally). Also, you have to charge sales tax because you have become the 'point of sale' for that gun being sold. CA also has "Use Tax" which means if you bring anything into the state and use it within the state, you are required to pay the tax. $10 - $30 isn't going to pay for much of an attorney if you aren't following the law in your area.

The CA law regarding get an authorization to ship a gun into the state only applies to FFLs shipping and not individuals and it only applies to transfers.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
in CA the new laws require that you receive permission from the state before you can bring any firearm into CA (legally).

-----------------
CA also has "Use Tax" which means if you bring anything into the state and use it within the state, you are required to pay the tax. $10 -

Tommyhawk

What are you talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
Craftsman has hit the nail on the head! I would add that in CA the new laws require that you receive permission from the state before you can bring any firearm into CA (legally). Also, you have to charge sales tax because you have become the 'point of sale' for that gun being sold. CA also has "Use Tax" which means if you bring anything into the state and use it within the state, you are required to pay the tax. $10 - $30 isn't going to pay for much of an attorney if you aren't following the law in your area.

Your information is incorrect -- the only thing the FFL is providing, in a third party transfer, is a service of transfer. The FFL did not purchase, in any way shape or form, the inventory, and has no legal basis for valuation of "sales" UNLESS the action occurs from one intrastate FFL to another, AND its a new item.

The transfer agent, .. well, let's just blast the fire out of this.

If UPS brings you a package worth $1000.00 USD, and ships it to you for $25bucks, does your "Reasoning" then state that UPS should COLLECT (its not charging) sales tax as they are the "point of sale"?

No, of course it doesn't

Use tax applies to USE not handling, its a backwards inventory-tax-on-in-process-machninery.

The FFL never, in the eyes of the state, SELLS you the firearm NOR do they USE it as part of their company.

An FFL that ATTEMPTS to STEAL "sales tax" should be reported to the sales and use tax board of that state for an audit.

Its a RIP OFF, Tommy, designed to extract money fromthe person's pocket, as PAYBACK for not buying the gun from them. Plain and simple.

The correct answer is "that is an unethical business practice and I refuse to work with you"

Jeffe,

So now you're also an expert on California law? Outstanding!

It is NOT so cut and dried as you would suggest.

quote:

Under the California Sales and Use Tax Law, a sale occurs when title to, or possession of, tangible personal property is transferred to the purchaser or the purchaser's representative, for consideration. If a contract of sale does not pass title prior to shipment, the sale occurs no later than the time when the retailer completes his or her performance with reference to physical delivery of the property

Jeff, just because you THINK it is so or WANT it to be so, doesn't make it so.

Some FFL holders deem it safer to go ahead and collect the tax (which is REQUIRED to be paid under CA state law) in order to avoid a costly defense.

bottom line is that in CA, the customer is going to either pay the tax anyway, or be guilty of tax evasion. Whether the FFL collects it or the consumer claims it on his tax return, the law requires that the tax is paid.

CAS,
I don't think you meant for your reply to come over as being a jerk, so I'll try to answer in an even nicer tone

Let's just say I disagree with your read on the subject. If my dad sent me his pristine 1958 358 winchester featherweight, as a GIFT, how would you basis sales tax on that, if it went through your shop?

UPS delivers more stuff to cali from outside cali than ANY gunshop will ever see traffic, and they certainly charge a fee and taxes on that fee...

UPS charges sales tax for that which they are the retailer OF.

Same thing here where I am. local shop I think does it to 1. get you to buy from them and 2. discourage people from doing it so they don't have to mess with it.

what I want to know is, what is different out of state sending to CA versus other states? so many things listed, rifles included, say no sale to CA

Red

I think that you changing your argument from a firearms purhase to a gift is implicit ackowledgement that you were dead wrong.

Further, your inability to comprehend the difference between a common carrier and a retailer is compelling testimony to the fact that no one should take you seriously in this regard.

Bottom line is that you don't have a clue what you are talking about and You are using that ignorance to slander legitimate businesses who are guilty of nothing more than complying with the Franchise Tax Board.

I take it from the heat of your rebuttal that you feels it is fair to charge a sales tax on a gun that they didn't sell. Okay - fine ..

You stated by being milding insulting and then decided to raise the ante. Okay, CAS .. remember, only YOU are naming your business and only YOU are, or are not, stating that you are charging sales tax on the gun for a transfer.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
I think that you changing your argument from a firearms purhase to a gift is implicit ackowledgement that you were dead wrong.

You would think wrong - It is a PERFECT example where you would hae vto state it was WRONG to charge any form of sales tax on the rifle. I gave you an easy way outby giving you a case that you could IMPLICITLY recognize as being unfitting for charging a sales tax to, however you choose to make it a personal, flaming, insult that you would be called to state "no, its not reasonable to charge sales tax" Resorting to inflamtory language does, however, demonstrate that you are one of those guys who feels if they yell louder, they must be more correct

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Further, your inability to comprehend the difference between a common carrier and a retailer

Lets see how many issues you are clouding. 1: UPS is a retailer of services. 2: The transfer FFL is also a retailer, of services AND goods, 3: they are also sales& use + franchise tax filers in cali. UPS doesn't feel "it is safer to go ahead and collect" .. ... a transfer FFL can change sales tax on their SERVICE, not on the rifle that they DID NOT SELL IT. What part of that is even remotely unclear

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
is compelling testimony

overblown language, typical of someone that wants to try someone in an internet kangaroo court

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
to the fact that no one should take you seriously in this regard.

Yes, I too would state this, if I were charging sales tax on transfers? Self preservation at its best; make anyone that challenges you look like a baffoon, so you can point and say "yeah, i told HIM"

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:

Bottom line is that you don't have a clue what you are talking about

Incorrect .. you are lining up your opinions and guestimates to protect a business practice that you deem acceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
and You are using that ignorance to slander

the word you are looking for, and improperly asserting, is lible. I didn't SAY it, i wrote it. I am denoucing an unethical business practice, not libling anyone. I have NO CLUE who "Cas" is, and have named no companies. In fact, unless someone jumps up and says "*I* change that fee" I have no clue if they do.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
legitimate businesses who are guilty of nothing more than complying with the Franchise Tax Board.

WRONG Taxing authority .. We are talking about sales tax, unless one reports that "tax" as income ..

SALES Tax Board
http://www.taxes.ca.gov/Sales_and_Use_Tax/index.shtml

Franchise tax
http://www.ftb.ca.gov/


In fact, you are defending a poor business practice that you YOURSELF say is charged because "some FFL holders deem it safer .. to avoid a costly defense"

In fact, to quote you, yourself

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
just because you THINK it is so or WANT it to be so, doesn't make it so.

I find it unrealistic to defend charging someone salestax on something they DID NOT SELL.

Califorina may have some screwed up laws, pal, but charging sales tax for something NOT sold in the state has got to take the cake.


Sorry pal, feeling a business practice is unethical and stating it is not lible nor slander. Stating it on a forum, and explaining WHY it seems unethical is also neither.

Pitching a FIT that someone feels that way, that is, defending what looks like an unsavory practice, is just, well, different.

Making up variable defenses of the matter is less than genuine, in my humble opinion

but ya'll go ahead and froth at the mouth about it. You yelling at me over the internet is highly unlikely to change my opinion.

First off, I luckily don;t have to do transfers, so no, I do not charge any fees.

Second, the Franchise Tax Board in California controls tax revenue. If a product comes into California that is purchased outside of California, you have to pay a "USE TAX", that is the tax that retailers are collecting. It just happens to be the same tax rate as sales tax.

A poster was referring to California retailers, and it is in that frame of reference that I correctly pointed out how wrong you are.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about Jeff, and given your propensity to overwhelm reason with heaps of BS.

I fully expect a cut and paste of every sentence of this post as well, since your history proves that the more wrong you are the more vitriolic you get in your argument.

Rock on being wrong if you choose.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
First off, I luckily don;t have to do transfers, so no, I do not charge any fees.


Second, the Franchise Tax Board in California controls tax revenue.

First you don't do it, great. Then why are your panties in a twist? You just feel like picking a fight.

Second, Sales and Use NOT part of the franchise tax -- infact, if you plug in "Sales and use tax" you are redirection to the BOE.ca.gov, the california board of equalization .. not the franchise tax board, ftb.ca.gov

you bringing the FTB into the matter was a mistake, you might just own that you misrepresented that or made a mistake. the FTB does NOT collect sales and use tax. You only get to declare that off your state income tax .. wow, funny how that works .. you don't have to pay state income tax on sales tax, bc is aint revenue.

Deputy Director Sales and Use Tax
450 N Street Sacramento,
CA 95814

Oh, you can charge a DELIVERY charge, and that's entirely taxable .. in fact, the Sales and use guys have a great PDF for it
http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub100.pdf

The term retailer, that you want to throw out there to show my compleat ignorance (funny, i usually do that myself) has a pretty specific set of meanings.. that the RETAILER is the agent of the SELLER ... and unless the FFL holder is getting paid the transfer fee by the SELLER OR is his employee OR is an agent of the seller, then NO sales tax CAN apply...

To be clear - RETAILER here means associated business of the seller -- SO, cabellas to cabellas would be sales tax, but individual to FFL is SPECIFICALLY not taxed

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/reg1620.pdf

quote:

B)
From Other States - When Sales Tax Does Not Apply. Sales tax does not apply when the order is sent by the purchaser directly to the retailer at a point outside this state, or to an agent of the retailer in this state, and the property is shipped to the purchaser, pursuant to the contract of sale, from a point outside this state directly to the purchaser in this state, or to the retailer’s agent in this state for delivery to the purchaser in this state, provided there is no participation whatever in the transaction by any local branch, office, outlet or other place of business of the retailer or by any agent of the retailer having any connection with such branch, office, outlet, or place of business.

USe tax

quote:

Generally, if you purchase merchandise from a private party located out-of-state...the purchase would not be subject to use tax since the sale is considered an occasional sale.

-

Handling and service charges

quote:

Handling charges are a service related to the sale and are subject to tax when related to a taxable sale. Please see publication 100, Shipping and Delivery Charges.

and, at the end of the day, the USE tax is buyer's obligation, if applicable, by those same pesky guys at SALES AND USE TAx

quote:

As noted above, your customers must pay the use tax to us if you do not collect it from them. You may wish to voluntarily register and collect the use tax as a customer service even if you are not required to do so.

At the end of the day, it is NOT required that the FFL charge the tax, and is highly unlikely that its REQUIRED from an individual, according to the fine people at the BOE (not, NOT franchise tax board), even in the PRC

sales and use tax gets paid, in cali, to the BOE.ca.gov

Franchise TAX (that's income tax to everyone else on the planet) allows you to deduct your sales and use tax PAYMENTS as part of your adjusted income

I have provided enough links to these people to make the point clear .. you pay sales tax to sales tax board, even in cali ...

Oh, CAS, I pay the analog to these same taxes, monthly, as do you. You might ask your accountant and get very much more familiar with who you pay your taxes to, unless you want to run into trouble with the taxman... you see, just because you paid SOMEONE doesn't mean you paid the RIGHT someone.

Its an UNETHICAL business practice, and its meant to be "Retribution" for not buying from them. These people will NEVER get my money, in any state.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
I correctly pointed out how wrong you are.

According to the fine folks and websites available, you didn't.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
I luckily don;t have to do transfers, so no, I
do not charge any fees.

so, no direct knowledge

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
and given your propensity to overwhelm reason with heaps of BS.

Yeah, that's what factual links to the actual governing bodies are, with direct quotes and given precidence is .. BS ..

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
I fully expect a cut and paste of every sentence of this post as well,

Someitmes people need reason delivered in smaller doses than others

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:

since your history proves that the more wrong you are the more vitriolic

Do you know what that word means?Let me help you "very caustic; scathing: vitriolic criticism" Do i keep things factual, genearlly refrain from name calling, libling statements, and stick to the point? Do i attempt insiuation of internet bullying by saying people "Are slandering legitimate business" ? Sir, you really shouldn't project your habits on others. Do i refuse to give in to people SHOUTING at me, when they are utterly WRONG? certainly. Do I freely admit it when I am incorrect? Yep .. do I being by insulting people and escalating from there? Well, yeah, sometimes when there's a history. Sir, YOU choose to piss on my leg and tell me it was raining. Perhaps you will take that into account before you just decide to blast the hell out of someone known for defending them selves with vigor.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
you get in your argument.

which of course means i refuse someone to disabuse me on a matter that they have chosen to pick a fight over? WOW, you are now like the bully that gets his butt kicked, whining about the process.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Rock on being wrong if you choose.

and now you'll start whining about how this is no way for a moderator to behave .. Get over it .. you decided to pick a fight with me, knowing my habits, as you have stated above. You openned the screen door and kicked the sleeping dog in the butt .. and then complain when he responds?

CAS, again, you are incorrect in your information - the Franchise tax people have NOTHING to do with sales and use tax, period, EVER.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Second, the Franchise Tax Board in California controls tax revenue. If a product comes into California that is purchased outside of California, you have to pay a "USE TAX", that is the tax that retailers are collecting. It just happens to be the same tax rate as sales tax.

And a call to franchise tax board utterly confirms that Sales and Use tax is collected by the Board of Equalization (analog to Sales tax commission in most other sates) and the Franchise board collects business revenue, and NEVER collects sales and use tax.

The nice young lady stated, several times "we are the income tax in California, the BOE is the sales tax people, let me get you over to them" and they are NOT the same departments and have entirely different functions.


So, CAS, if you are paying your sales tax to the Franchise board, you are NOT paying your sales tax. I strongly suggest you meet with your CPA and verify how your taxes are being paid to the correct entity .. Since I have to sign my quarterly tax statements and payments, I am brutally aware of how much money goes to the Texas Sales and Use tax commission, as well as the franchise tax commission (who said texas doesn't have an income tax? -- they are only techincally correct)

So, in your own words,

quote:

Rock on being wrong if you choose.