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I posted a thread previously about using a Model 21 BRNO for a 7x64 build. I reset my plan after that thread. I have picked up a 1909 Mauser. Somewhat inspired by the looks of the Mauser and Rigby rifles, I am thinking I would like to have the metal work nitrided. My goal is a rifle that can be hard used but still look nice. My question is here. I have read numerous threads about whether heat treatment is necessary. I am not looking to rehash those conversations. So beginning with the premise it is necessary to heat treat a 1909 action, what should be the proper course with regards to heat treatment to finish with a nitrided 1909 action? This action will not be annealed. Is the nitriding sufficient heat treatment itself? Most things I have been able to find suggest likely not as the hardness does not reach sufficient depth. If both heat treatment and nitriding should be done in separate processes, does it matter which order they are done in? | ||
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Nitride is not a sufficient heat treatment for a Mauser receiver; it is too thin. Having it heat treated/case hardened and then nitriding does not make any sense; that accomplishes nothing. The case hardening leaves the surface hard. If you had it nitrided, then case hardened, that would burn the nitride out of it anyway. Assuming your 09 receiver needs heat treatment (some do, some don't), then send it to Blanchard for case hardening and forget nitriding. That would be a waste of money. | |||
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The reason I want to nitride is I like the way the finish looks and the corrosion resistance. Essentially nitriding instead of a rust blue. | |||
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Maybe I'm missing something! Tom just advised that the nitride you "want" means you're shooting a dead soft action. Why would you want to do that? 50-65000 PSI inches away from your face. | |||
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I mean that I intend to use the nitriding as the finish for the rifle to take advantage of its corrosion resistance properties in addition to its looks. I am under the belief nitride doesn’t negate the heat treatment. I was merely curious if nitride could accomplish both and ensuring that nitriding post heat treatment is acceptable with these older actions if it isn’t sufficient heat treatment alone. It certainly works with modern produced Mausers as evidenced by nitride being the finish on new produced rifles from Mauser and Rigby. I do appreciate the assurance and knowledge offered up here. | |||
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I don't know near as much as these other guys do, but I guess it would depend on the specific material and the desired properties you hope to achieve. I am not quite sure, but I would think the order in which the heat treatment and nitriding processes are performed generally would not matter, as long as the appropriate procedures are followed to ensure that the desired properties were achieved. I guess it depends on what your overall goal is on this one. Depending on how far down this rabbit hole you want to go, I would recommended to consult with a materials expert or a metallurgist to determine the appropriate processes for your specific case. | |||
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Go with DLC, but only after re-case hardening. You'll like DLC, it's extremely durable and looks like Nitride, It's super slick too. | |||
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I have another related question: As the owner of a 1950s Mauser GEW 98 Mauser actioned sporter with a modern barrel chambered in 30-06 caliber. With a strong barrel-what would be the strength of the action as to metallurgy from the wartime action? Given, of course-that its not sitting in front of you folks-without testing? Avatar | |||
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Slow rust blue it,,, Black Nitride has no use on low carbon steels. Before I put much time into a 1909 (or any Mauser '98 of that era) I'll send it to Blanchards. | |||
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I see these threads trying to determine the Last step in the custom rifle process at the beginning. I always wonder why the person doesn't think about it while doing All the Gunmaking processes with all the time in the world to decide on the metal treatment or stock finish? There are, at the very least dozens of hours of gunmaking before the metal finishing, heat treating or stock finish comes due. My guess is most of these projects never reach the finishing stage and few actually reach the beginning stage? Proper hand polishing a 1909 Mauser action and bottom metal takes a couple dozen hours and should be accomplished before any other work is done. Ask Duane... ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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That is a true statement! But I guess it doesn't hurt to dream..... I do have a question for 450: A 1950 Gewehr 98 is impossible. And if it is a wartime action, which war was that? What the strengh of it? Give me more and accurate info and I'll tell you exactly how much pressure it will take. Actually I can answer now; it will definitely take 40K PSI loads. More or less. Depending on what it really is. | |||
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You are correct. I have to dig for more stampings. Some were polished off. The action is a Gewehr 98 but it was sporterized in the 1950s. Need to get you more info. Avatar | |||
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If it is marked Gew 98 on the left side, it was made NLT 1918. In one of 11 factories. | |||
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Modern Mauser actions are heat treated modern alloys. You would need to know that your 1909 has sufficient hardness prior to attempting gas nitriding. That being said, there are about half a dozen different nitriding processes, which one are you referring to. Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
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Was looking at H&M as I see them referenced frequently. I understand the processes I am referencing are two different processes. It is just unclear whether or not both processes can be utilized. Some things I read make it sound like certain nitriding processes give you a corrosion proof and slick finish. Some statements read as though nitriding would return an action like the 1909 to a too soft state. | |||
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I've used H&M to black nitride three projects and here are some of my notes based on those projects. On my first project that was done by H&M I wanted to switch out the stock afterwards, which would necessitate glass bedding and a lot of inlet work for a proper wood to metal fit. There is a reason fitting the metal to the wood steps are done before the final gun metal polishing. I was hesitant to make the stock switch because I knew what the work entailed and I didn't want to potentially scratch/ruin the metal finish, but the new, better looking stock was occupying too much space in my brain so caution was thrown to the wind and the work completed. The black nitride finish wasn't impacted at all, not a scratch on the cm barrel, receiver or bottom metal. The glass bedding process also had zero effect on the metal finish as well. On the second project I had H&M treat, among other things, a new ss barrel so the barrel color would approximate the receiver color. I realized after the fact the barrel chamber needed a finishing reamer because it wasn't chambering properly, I had purchased the new ss barrel second hand and this project sat on the back bench for years and I simply forgot the steps and details. I sent the rifle off to a very fine and competent gunsmith and after multiple attempts he called and said his finishing reamers were having zero effect on the rifle chamber, that the chamber was simply too hard. We searched around for a solution and found a reamer maker that sold a finishing reamer that would probably do the job but it was quite expensive and neither the gunsmith nor I wanted to spring for it so I ended up ordering new ss barrel. As someone else in one of these threads wisely pointed out, if you are going to have H&M or similar do their thing on your rifle, break the barrel in first before sending it out, and not make the rather costly mistake I made. On the third project I've had no issues at all. The calibers of the rifles treated are 25-06, .270 and 7X57. The people at H&M are very good to work with, turn around time is quick, it's cheaper ultimately, per gun, if you send them multiple guns to do at the same time, I had them bead blast the finish on all three projects so the metal is a flat, matte black color, and the finish is extremely durable. There may be other companies that provide the black nitride service/process, idk, my experience w/ H&M has been good, am very pleased with the metal finish on these three rifles. More knowledgeable people than I can discuss the finer points of metal hardness, metallurgy, old gunmetal composition versus new gunmetal composition, all important topics. I'm out. | |||
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H&M salt bath? I assume so. Did a 7mm WSM a few years ago, H&M salt bath, shot 1/8 moa before H&M, shot 5/8 after and fouled like no tomorrow. And It acted like it was overpressure, but the brass and primers didn't show it. Deeper inspection as to what was going on with the barrel revealed with a bore scope, severe bore and chamber pitting 1.5 inches back from the muzzle and pitted chamber, which is why I was into the extraction cam all the time breaking cases free. Corrective actions, part off 2.0 inches of barrel length and polish the chamber. Getting the 1.5 inch section of pitted bore off the barrel got rid of the severe pitting and foul out problem and polishing the chamber got proper extraction to return and accuracy returned as well. Salt Bath Nitride is molten cyanide and I don't recommend it for a barrel, unless provisions are taken to fully plug the bore. BTY, when I parted the 2.0 inch section off the barrel, I really had to put the pressure on the HSS parting tool, after dulling once resharpen lower SFM and It threw a pretty good fight for about .010 to .015 but I did get it cut. I can see where it would be hell on an HSS chamber reamer, Likely screw it up real good. I've done a good amount of DLC happy with it. But the subject of Nitride is interesting to me and alternatives processes to salt bath. This leads me to believe Gas FNC (ferritic nitrocarburizing) seems a superior method over salt bath nitride. To be specific gas FNC process HR45N or HRA. https://www.paulo.com/resource...vs-total-case-depth/ | |||
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DLC seems like it would be great stainless steels. However, it doesn’t seem like it would offer as much corrosion protection as some of the nitriding processes. At least that seems to be what I can find. Curious if your experiences differ in that regard. Also, no I am not planning on taking this rifle and dumping it in the ocean for a week. However, I live in East Texas. I am out on the ranch multiple times a week. I am riding the buggy and it gets covered in dust and dirt. I am taking it out of air conditioning in the truck or house into hot humid air or vice versa all year long and dealing with condensation. I am not going to use a rifle I have to bust out of the stock and oil every time I take it outside. I’m not abusing or neglecting my rifles, but I am using them in these conditions. That’s the point of this proposed project. I LOVE the look of a rust blues and walnut stock. However, I don’t have it in me to put this kind of money into a rifle and leave it in the safe or subject it to the corrosion this is likely to cause. So I find my pretty rifles stay in the safe. I am looking for a way to have a rifle look nice and not rust out in every place I can’t wipe down every time I come home. Thus my interest in a nitriding process that may duplicate the looks while bringing more durability to the table. | |||
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Black nitride or a salt bath is an entirely different process than what I think of when someone says nitriding.  Hence the confusion and differing responses. Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
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This is what I'm referring to, from H&M website: http://blacknitride.com/we-are-different/ http://blacknitride.com/qpq-processes/ | |||
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So what is Black Plasma Nitride that is being used in the current manufacturing of RIGBY/MAUSER 98 rifles? I have one and it seems to be a pretty good finish. 4WD | |||
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It's likely that's what Rigby's marketing people are calling PVD/PVT processes. | |||
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I spoke with a metalurgist today at Paulo in St. Louis. It turns out the nitride process is too hot for low carbon steel like what a Argentine is made of. Nitride in any of it's forms be it salt bath or gas will anneal an Argentine. The process is intended for chromoly steels, 4140, 4340. He suggested if I wanted a more durable Argentine to get it case hardened, then DLC it. DLC is a cooler process and will not change the hardness even if its used on the original case that DWM did. | |||
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That's funny, they are about half an hour from me and I have never heard of them. I'll have to stop and make a visit next I am up that way and have them do a Mauser receiver and do full work up on one afterwards. Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
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Thanks Timan. That seems to definitively answer my question as to whether it can be done and as to why it is an option for modern rifles but not the older. Crazy the variability in steels used for the same purposes. | |||
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I explained the same thing here before. Nitriding is unsuitable for low carbon steels. Crazy? Not at all; in the early days of rifle building, about the mid 1930s, they didn't have chromium or molybdenum alloy steel; which is why they case hardened them. Up to the advent of the Bessemer converter, rifle frames were not even made from steel; they were wrought iron. Or brass. I've never heard of dlc, but once you case hardened steel, what more needs to be done to it; it already has a hard surface, by definition. | |||
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The DLC will be more corrosion and abrasion resistant than any traditional form of bluing. I see it used a lot on the slides of striker fired pistol’s, and such. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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