The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Harry Selby 416 Rigby project FINALLY getting started. Need some advice please.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Harry Selby 416 Rigby project FINALLY getting started. Need some advice please. | Login/Join |
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The gunmaker building my Harry Selby 416 rigby clone (It's gonna be a somewhat quasi-clone, because we only have pictures to work with and a middle class, married with two kids, living on one income limited budget, but it's going to be close enough for me.) has told me that he has finally resumed work on it. I am in need of a two leaf Express style rear sight as similar as possible to the one used on H.S.'s Rifle. We would also like some advise on which would be the best available trap grip cap option in terms of resembling the original. NECG has a three leaf Recknagle unit that can be be modified to look like the original, we think it's close to 0.10" too narrow to look right. We'll use it if we have too, but would like to find a better option at a similar price. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Who sells Silvers recoil pads these days? There is an old post here on AR that contains good pics of the original rifle, including good pics of the rear sight and trap grip cap. I'll see if I can find it and provide link. Thanks Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | ||
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Matt, There's an old buddy of mine who owns an original Rigby in .416 Rigby, the rifle is a single-square bridge Magnum Mauser and I believe the quarter-rib is machined integrally and has a 25.25" barrel, I personally love the barrel profile on that rifle and it makes it seem a bit muzzle heavy but it points like a good shotgun! Trouble is that he stays 4 hrs away and is in his late seventies now and doesnt do much shooting, I will be visiting him soon enough and if you need any measurements off the rifle, do let me know, be glad to help with your build! Cheers! Zubin One shot..meat! Two shots...maybe...Three shots...heap shit! - Old Indian adage | |||
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Thank you for the offer, Zubin! Most of Rigby's 416's have a much heavier barrel, resulting in rifles weighing in at about 11.5lbs. Rigby offered a light weight version rifle, and Harry's rifle seems to fit this pattern. If your friends rifle weighs less than 9.75lbs, I would greatly appreciate some measurements! You can PM me if the rifle turns out to be a light weight model. The barrel contours on the three other lightweight rifles I've seen on the net look Identicle to Selby's. Selby's is the only one I've seen with a barrel-band rear sight base. All the others have a machined in rib. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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This sounds like a good project,ColoradoMatt.One suggestion I would like to make is regarding the folding leaf sights.I like mine to have the notch(like a Ruger) instead of the V.It may be more accurate for shooting at longer ranges.I will ask for them on the rifle I am having built at this moment | |||
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Matt, HS posts from time to time here on AR. Perhaps one of the old hands could get you in touch with him or you could search him out and PM him. He may be of value on this project. A sort of firsthand consultant if you will! Keep us posted. Jeff | |||
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NECG shows 2 different two-leaf sights, neither will work? They look to me just a shortened version of the 3 leaf. And the Traditional Trap Cap from NECG (maybe a Fisher) looks pretty close to the original. Are you going to make a sleeve for the rear sight to mount on? I got a Silvers from Galazan. They have the original S.W. Silvers pads. | |||
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Magnum action, not a standard length like Selby's (not mine, unfortunately):  NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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Thanks Baxter, and you other fellas, for your advice and comments. I really appreciare it. The rear sight base is being machined in integrally. Only a very close examination should able to tell. If you look at the sights on the Selby rifle, there is extra length behind the second leaf, and a screw was used there to tie the sight down in the dovetail. I am thinking of having the third leaf off of a NECG three leaf sight removed, trimming the length down a bit, and welding up and file shaping the space where the third leaf was to get to a more Selby-like sight. I suppose length could be added to the end of a two leaf sigh. Had'nt really thought about it till now. I am aware of the the NECG grip cap, but am just wondering if it is the best option. It may be the the one I go with. Who else makes a trap grip these days? Thanks again for the help. Matt Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Scroll about 2/3rd's the way down this page, and you will see several pics of Selby's .416... http://www.expeditionexchange....ad.php?t=855&page=67 You just need to right click over the images and select save image as... if you have windows and you can save the pics directly to your computer. I know I did... . | |||
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Ah...got it... I know exactly what you mean now.... I have been trying to get on the actual Recknagel site for two days and it looks down...they may have more options NECG does not carry. I think your idea for the 3 leaf sight is quite workable, now that I see where you are going with it. As far as grip caps...I have what I think is good, workable design that one cannot tell is a trap from the outside, but alas need someone to work with to get it done. | |||
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Have your barrel contour come out a bit more than normal, before you step it down. It looks like a standard Recknagle 2 leaf express sight. You can get them from NECG like this: http://www.newenglandcustomgun...d=4253&ST=Unfinished Two Leaf Express Sight Have a sight base machined and or cut it into the barrel shank. Add a front sight like this and set it slight"y" back from the barrel crown and while not like an intergral front sight--it will look pretty good. http://www.newenglandcustomgun...d_id=4684&ST=Classic Ramp with Folding Hood Good luck on your custom. DRSS Member | |||
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I have an old copy of Guns and Ammo's Big Bore Rifles that shows a few pictures of the Selby rifle. It clearly shows the front and rear cuts made in the standard length action to handle the Rigby shell and the model 70 type safety he added. If you would like copies, PM your address. I seem to remember he sold that rifle to Joe Coogan. Someone here may know how to reach out to him. | |||
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LJS, you have a PM. The safety was a Rayburn, I believe, put on by D'Arcy Echols. The rifle was sold to Frank Lyonn, a very wealthy businessman I believe may be from Arkansas or Louisiana. I understand Joe Coogan worked for both Frank Lyonn and Harry Selby at different times. When Harry decided he wanted to sell the rifle, Joe set up the sale. I both sent emails and left a voicemail for Joe Coogan at Benneli USA, but he didn't get back to me. It would seem that my emails went to the spam folder, as I bet Mr. Coogan would have at least told me no if he couldn't or wouldn't be able to help me out. I had hoped to arrange for my gunmaker to examine the Selby rifle. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Matt, you are right about the safety and the new owner. The Rayburn was taken off when it went to Frank. I have also send Joe an email back in Dec with no reply. He might be busy with stuff as he's always returned emails fairly quickly in the past. I presume you've seen the Layne Simpson article on the rifle? | |||
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Baxter, The Layne Simpson article start the light bulb in my head 12 years ago "I gotta build one just like that someday!" Contact Kcstott here on the AR. I'm quite certain he can do it. I initially enquirer with him to make the rear site base for my rifle, but my gunmaker then decided that he wanted to machine in it in integral. In fact KC has a CAD drawing of it on his web site and could make them if someone wanted. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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You may be interested to know Rigby is building a "Selby" model rifle next year. On a magnum action though. They of course have the original ledger for dimensions out of the shop, but HArry did a bunch of shaving of the stock, so it will not be a direct replica. They also have a Lightweight 416 model now and in side-by-side pics, it kinda-sorta looks like Harry's. | |||
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Thanks for the heads up. However, Real Rigby's are way above my pay scale. Ospey Arms in Oyster Bay, NY, had a rifle almost identicle to Selby's, except that it had the old standard machined in rib on the long barrel shank, and a for-end tip. It was priced at $18,500. If I could have afforded it, I would have bought it, had my gunmaker copy it, but with the Selby rear sight, then I would have sold the Osprey gun. I am enamoured, no afflicted, with a love of guns that most folks in my tax bracket would never consider shelling out the dough for. I'm not saying guns from the top name makers aren't worth it. That seems like a very personal judgement call. If I were not married with kids, I could consider commissioning a rifle from the likes of Echols, Rigby, or Holland and Holland. That's just not my current reality. Having said all that, I just saw an intermediate action 275 Rigby on Googe Images that was made in 1911. I have two good kidneys, and you only need one...  Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Silvers pads are sold by kynoch ammo - http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/ | |||
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 this may help,gary downeys,,osprey ltd | |||
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I ask him if I could come up and make some measurements a couple of months ago, and he said that the rifle had been sold. It continues to remain listed on the Osprey website as available for sale. I even offered him a couple hundred dollars for the privilege of making detailed measurements of the magazine box, action mods, and the barrel. I don't know the gentleman I corresponded with, but maybe he just didn't want to deal with me. His perogative, if that's the case. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Point of order, brother Matt... I'm willing to bet that you, like me, are "middle income". With taste like that in rifles I think that you're likely classy enough. I'm a huge Ruark fan, which by default made me a Selby fan. Lately with Harry writing stories for Sports Afield (I've gone so far as to request that they shackle Harry to a laptop and have him crank out as many stories as possible) I became a fan all over again. I've always wanted to build a Selby 416. Good on you for taking on the project. I'll be looking forward to seeing the end result. SCI Life Member DRSS "In those savage countries success frequently depends upon one particular moment; you may lose or win according to your action at that critical instant." Sir Samuel Baker | |||
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Seems the photos have a co mingling of different rifles. The believeable "real" Selby 416 has the ring opened up to almost frightenilng proporitions on the right upper quadrant. Pretty bold by today's standards! Can't be much left of the lower abuttment either The 416 Rigby as loaded by Hornady is a fairly comfortable fit in the standard 98. However, ammo loaded to CIP max will be too long. Interesting to me is that the Selby rifle did not have the front of the bridge machined backward. Good move! The rear of the extractor is still captured by the bridge...or...maybe a longer extractor, but I don't think so. | |||
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Have you considered seeing somebody about this? | |||
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coloradomatt,,gary downey is an ok guy ,, he would often send me guns to check out and if i like them ,then send a check ,,i know most of the guns on his site have been sold so i would take it as the truth ....paul | |||
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I told my gunmaker to open up the action however he needed to be safe, but that I'd like the rearbridge to look like Harry's rifle if possible (I secured a long extractor just in case.). I'll be happy either way. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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I corresponded with kynamco. I'm ordering a red #4 Silvers pad from them. No one has indicated to me any alternatives for a trap grip cap, so I'll go with the one sold by NECG. Ordered the rear sight from NECG on Thursday. If it doesn't work out, my gunmaker will make one up from scratch. Last, but certainly not least, I have pics of several suitable (and surprisingly very affordable) california English blanks from Steven Heillmann. The selby rifles stock was nothing spectacular, and mine won't be either. The primary goal is good layout, so this rifle's stock can endure as many rounds as Harry's ( not that it will ever come close) My Gunmaker is a Paul Dressel loyalist, but I like the fact that Heillmann guarantees upfront that all of his blanks are dried for 8 years. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Matt. Really classy project, and I am in the same boat as you regarding affording quality on a middle class income. I would rather have a few really nice guns, than a lot of mediocre ones. I doubt that you will be disappointed by a blank from Steve. I have used three of them on guns, including one that spent 10-days hunting in the rain in southeast Alaska without any shift in point of aim. It's my feeling that Steve's blanks are one of the best values for the money that you can find in wood. Dave One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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The selby rifle was really opened up... I'm kinda suprised Coloradomatt found a gunsmith willing to do the project. One thing I think most people forget is that the ammo used was not as hot as todays loads. Rigby probably was able to get away with it because handloading wasn't big back in the day and they didn't have to worry about people stuffing the .416 case to the gills with powder in a quest for more speed. The original load was 410gr at 2,350 from a 28" test barrel, a really low pressure round. Today if people get anything less than 2400 form thier 20" barrels they feel they are doing something wrong... If any US manufacturer loaded to the original specs they would probably get drowned in complaints after the customers fired up thier chronographs. . | |||
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I have a original Rigby 416 made early post war (1946/47 if I remember correctly) on a std 98 action. I can send you some pictures or measurements if you like. Note I am leaving for SCI tomorrow and will not be able to do ANYTHING until the week of 1/28 at the earliest. ken@kebcollc.com Ken DRSS, PP Chapter Life NRA Life SCI Life DSC | |||
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Matt: Was Rigby the maker of Selby's gun. I would be surprised if they were since the gun was not a bespoke rifle. | |||
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Yep, I dont know if I would have been "cavalier" enough to try a 416 Rigby on a M98 mauser. I would start with a CZ 550 and do a facsimile from there. Heck your a going to spend more in gunsmithing cutting metal out of the action and geeting it to feed than you would getting the other parts to "look" right--with the 550 or a old 602 it is pretty straight foward. THats the cool part about custom projects...there what the customer wants not what is easy. I'd take Ken up on the measurements will make things a ton easier. Ed DRSS Member | |||
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Yup....a few years ago Harry told me if he were to have a416 built today it would be on a BRNO 602...I suspect he'd be fine with the newer CZ as well. Peter Flack also uses them for his main rifles. | |||
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Matt, I bought a trap grip cap from Steve Heilmann a few years ago, but I can't see them on his website anymore. You might want to ask though. - stu | |||
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I am with Duane. Take away most of the bottom receiver lug. Bad. Then mill a slot in the upper receiver ring that also takes away some of the upper lug. I would not do it. Years ago when the Coogan article came out I wanted to make a replica, but after a little thought I gave it up. Even collected a couple of nice M98's, a No. 5 416 barrel with extra on the big end, a PTG set of 416 Rigby reamers, reloading dies, cases, chunk of English Walnut, and all the fixings. I will use the stuff on a better sized action for the Rigby. | |||
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  this gun is pretty spartan and it still ran about 5-6k its a 458wm and i,ll second duanes opinion ...paul | |||
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As I have understood the "selby Rigby" boltstop was also removed 1½mm back as the absolut maximum of what is feasable on a M98. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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Bolt goes wobble wobble at full rearward position. Yea, we can critize Harrys rifle, but it was an attempt by Rigby to get some 416's in the field when the Magnum Mausers were impossible to obtain. Counting the number of rounds Harry ran through the rifle, the fact that it stayed together is a testimonial to Paul Mauser. One of my readings in the past says after his double was wrecked by a land rover, Harry found the 416 Mauser in a gun rack in a shop and history was born. | |||
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  loading slot to rear was opened up and ground down as well and slot in front ring ,this project wont be cheap metalwise....paul | |||
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Give me a break. Custom rifles are never cheap. The metalwork on a custom rifle is never cheap. What will the opening of the bridge and the ring add to this project cost-wise? Maybe 5 or 10%? Sorry if I come-off a bit terse, but there seems to be a lot of nit-picking on this thread. I can't wait to see the finished rifle Matt. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Harry Selby 416 Rigby project FINALLY getting started. Need some advice please.
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