I have spent the better prt of my life primarily devoted to shotguns and wing shooting. As such I attach a great deal of importance to gun fit. When I have a gun restocked, it is primarily to make it fit me and be shootable.

Recently I contracted with custom rifle builder to build a DG rifle. I was pleased that the first visit included a careful fitting with a similar DG rifle in an adjustable try-stock.

I believe that, in the case of a DG rifle, particularly, this is an important factor in designing the rifle. Yet I see a lot of rather high priced stocks being done to 'standard' measurements (and usually too short).

How many of you have gone through a fitting before spending $10k to $20K on a new rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:
I have spent the better prt of my life primarily devoted to shotguns and wing shooting. As such I attach a great deal of importance to gun fit. When I have a gun restocked, it is primarily to make it fit me and be shootable.

Recently I contracted with custom rifle builder to build a DG rifle. I was pleased that the first visit included a careful fitting with a similar DG rifle in an adjustable try-stock.

I believe that, in the case of a DG rifle, particularly, this is an important factor in designing the rifle. Yet I see a lot of rather high priced stocks being done to 'standard' measurements (and usually too short).

How many of you have gone through a fitting before spending $10k to $20K on a new rifle?

I send them a picture of me. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:
I have spent the better prt of my life primarily devoted to shotguns and wing shooting. As such I attach a great deal of importance to gun fit. When I have a gun restocked, it is primarily to make it fit me and be shootable.

Recently I contracted with custom rifle builder to build a DG rifle. I was pleased that the first visit included a careful fitting with a similar DG rifle in an adjustable try-stock.

I believe that, in the case of a DG rifle, particularly, this is an important factor in designing the rifle. Yet I see a lot of rather high priced stocks being done to 'standard' measurements (and usually too short).

How many of you have gone through a fitting before spending $10k to $20K on a new rifle?

I send them a picture of me. LOL

Thanks for your contribution.

I was fitted for a shotgun, both O/U and S/S, using a try gun at the Holland & Holland Shooting School. I use the same measurements on the double rifle stocks I have had made for my own use.

I’ve never had a “high dollar” custom made. I have however had several custom rifles made. The first I chose my stock from a picture. After that disaster I had another made. This time I tried every stock I could get in my hands. I worked with my gunsmith and we figured out my length of pull was 13 3/4 inches and that I liked an English style stock with slight drop to the comb and the slightest of cast.

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:
I have spent the better prt of my life primarily devoted to shotguns and wing shooting. As such I attach a great deal of importance to gun fit. When I have a gun restocked, it is primarily to make it fit me and be shootable.

Recently I contracted with custom rifle builder to build a DG rifle. I was pleased that the first visit included a careful fitting with a similar DG rifle in an adjustable try-stock.

I believe that, in the case of a DG rifle, particularly, this is an important factor in designing the rifle. Yet I see a lot of rather high priced stocks being done to 'standard' measurements (and usually too short).

How many of you have gone through a fitting before spending $10k to $20K on a new rifle?

I send them a picture of me. LOL

Thanks for your contribution.

You are more than welcome Alec.

Fit is pretty much overlooked with cookie cutter stock duplication machines. If I can't see the client in person, I get a detailed description along with photos of him or her) holding a rifle in the off hand position and a tracing of the trigger hand.

On the other hand,,,I've seen measurements from one stockmaker who "carefully" fits each client...cast is always the same "0" at heel, 3/16 at toe...I don't get it!

Shotgun measurements can't ALWAYS be transferred direct to a rifle, especially drop in a bolt gun. But..certainly a great tool to start with

Duane - -I am a left hand shooter. When I get a new shotgun it is bend or restocked to fit - a huge difference. I want my rifles to fit me and be easy to mount and shoot. I also do NOT want check pieces or unnecessary bulges and bumps. For me an open grip is also better.

Thanks for your comments.

Sounds like you ought to have a pretty good idea what your shotgun and/or rifle stock measurements need to be and should be able to supply then with your custom gun order, don't you think?
Who better to figure it out. I always prefer that my clients supply base line measurements and we can discuss them from there for specifics. I do work cast dimensions into all custom stocks, rifles and shotguns.

That's what a true custom stock is all about.

I have seen pictures, videos, and personally handled a Shotgun based Try-Gun. The time I spent with someone fitting me was a real eye opener for just how much adjustment an individual might need.

It's been said before that a scoped rifle is most often carefully aimed so there is a bit of wiggle room to get comfortable on the stock.

A shotgun however, is not exactly aimed but pointed so the stock fit is important.

On an open sight or stalking rifle or especially one built for close encounters with Dangerous game, I would guess stock fit to be important also...

Does anyone here have pictures of , or actually use a Rifle based Try-Gun ??

Thanks

You can look up try gun on the internet...Some neat examples. The try gun belongs to the shotgun..Rifle measurements could,perhaps should mimic those dimensions arrived at with shotguns. Keep in mind there is only one position (offhand) with a shot gun. Do those dimensions on a rifle, and any other position is up to the shooter to accommodate

I one were to set up a rifle for the prone position only, pretty easy to see that the fit would be foolish in offhand.

Never saw a shotgunner shoot prone.

So is a try gun (rifle) worthwhile? Of course, just don't expect a perfect fit in the other shooting positions

Look at the early FN Browning try-gun system. It's simple, light, easy to adjust, doesn't destroy balance........all things that most try-gun knuckles are not! Yes, it can be adapted to try-rifle use, I've done it quite some time ago. The design can be modified to withstand very heavy recoil. My own experience is that like shotguns, the metalwork and balance must closely approximate the customers job, however - or the final result will feel different.

Rifle fit is a much under-done subject in my opinion, especially stalking rifles. The way most shooters contort themselves to fit their rigs makes me cringe - but few will pay for experienced fitting.

Perhaps the best try-stock, is a bespoke pattern that has been created to fit the customer, refined and perfected for them with their metalwork, and shot by them. If the customer has experience with shooting several rifles that fit them well, it's also a big head start.

Never for a gun as expensive as you asked about.

However, I have had rifle and shotgun fitted to me and all my Parker guns fit with heavy winter clothing or a slip on pad (refuse to mess with that wood)due to short New England butt stocks.
My SxS double rifles fit even better than my Parkers since the rifle stocks are just right as is. Their low combs work well with express sights and scopes and they mount on-target every time. Serendipity!

Alec,

FWIW - I made several rifles with the same dimensions that work well for my upland shotguns, and I now believe that those rifle stocks are 1/2 to 3/4" too long.

Duane, thanks for your response. You bring up some interesting points I hadn't thought about...

True, a Shotgun is usually fired from an offhand position. Whereas a Rifle can be fired from a multitude of positions. I haven't fired a gun laying prone since I was a kid, but I'm sure there are some western hunters here that still do. Same with a kneeling position. The vast majority of hunting in my area is done shooting at a slightly downward angle from the comfort of a tree stand or some sort of blind. I can see how it would be darn near impossible to have a Rifle stock fit for ALL of these positions. I am guessing that Stock fit probably isn't as critical in these positions.

As Juglansregia pointed out, a stalking rifle is where stock fit would seem important on a Rifle. Especially on a Rifle that may be fired offhand when you get a surprise shot at a deer....or for those fellows out there who walk up to big dangerous critters !

As a side note, does anyone else here get sick of hearing the magazine writers use the term "Points like a fine shotgun" . I mean every review you read regardless if it's a Bolt action, Lever action , Single shot or even a straight pull monstrosity the writer gets about 4 paragraphs into it and then delivers the line....."points like a fine shotgun"

Anyway back on subject. I'm thinking out loud now, but perhaps another difficulty in using a Try-Rifle would be the difference in the sights fitted to the clients metalwork vs the sights on the Try-rifle. That could throw a variable in that the stockmaker would have to account for in the final stock.

I wonder if Westley Richards, Holland & Holland ect use a Try-Rifle to fit there clients ?

Alec, by any chance do you have a picture of the Try-Rifle the custom maker used to fit you with ? Was it a Double or Bolt gun ?

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by K W Johnston:
I have seen pictures, videos, and personally handled a Shotgun based Try-Gun. The time I spent with someone fitting me was a real eye opener for just how much adjustment an individual might need.

It's been said before that a scoped rifle is most often carefully aimed so there is a bit of wiggle room to get comfortable on the stock.

A shotgun however, is not exactly aimed but pointed so the stock fit is important.

On an open sight or stalking rifle or especially one built for close encounters with Dangerous game, I would guess stock fit to be important also...

Does anyone here have pictures of , or actually use a Rifle based Try-Gun ??

Thanks

quote:

...Alec, by any chance do you have a picture of the Try-Rifle the custom maker used to fit you with ? Was it a Double or Bolt gun ?

I was fitted by James Tucker who has a 'try gun' bolt rifle. I do not have a photo of it. He has fitted me a couple of times and it is a very enlightening experience. There is a noticeable difference when a gun or rifle is properly fitted and balanced.

With my SxS shotguns the LOP needs to be 14-3/4", but with a rifle I feel more comfortable with 14-1/4" LOP. Cast, drop at comb, and pitch also play a role in quick mounting and pointing.

K W Johnston your comments re scope vs iron sight heights are very valid.

Another difficulty with try rifles, is that stocks cut for different actions with otherwise identical measurements, can feel very different at the head of the grip, a critical area. This has to do with tang geometry vs trigger position. The depth of the action plays a role, too.

If the builder of a try rifle chooses a Mauser 98 action....fine.....but even then, different trigger options that put the blade in different positions need to be addressed unless you want to always use one trigger. Some of these little things all add up to make BIG differences, and if you want to address as many as possible in a try rifle you need careful planning.

Obviously a try rifle can be built with several different butt variations, within reason - all adjustable. I reckon it's also pointless having one where you cannot address different grip lengths/radii.

My suggestion would be to pick what style of rifle you'd hope to be working the most with in the future, and build the best try rifle possible to fit customers for that style of rifle/hunting/shooting.

With careful metalwork choice aside, the main challenge will be building one that balances and feels right, yet still has the necessary adjustment features. No small order IMO. Most try-guns I've handled felt like an experimental robotic arm with a set of shottie barrels soldered on. Try rifles are much rarer, with extra complications which I reckon is why they are so rare.

James Tucker is the only guy that I know that has a "Try-Rifle Stock". He is also one on the most qualified and best quality stockmaker in the world, in my opinion.

Truth is, fitting for a rifle is pretty easy compared to a shotgun. Having sights and the require parameters of a bolt action rifle stock eliminates many of the variables. Single shot rifles, on the other hand have much greater latitude in the variables.

The simple fact that most bolt rifles are set-up for bench shooting keeps it much simpler in most cases.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:...The simple fact that most bolt rifles are set-up for bench shooting keeps it much simpler in most cases.

Steven, do you really think that most bolt guns are built for benchrest shooting? I would not have guessed that.

?

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
James Tucker is the only guy that I know that has a "Try-Rifle Stock". He is also one on the most qualified and best quality stockmaker in the world, in my opinion.

Truth is, fitting for a rifle is pretty easy compared to a shotgun. Having sights and the require parameters of a bolt action rifle stock eliminates many of the variables. Single shot rifles, on the other hand have much greater latitude in the variables.

The simple fact that most bolt rifles are set-up for bench shooting keeps it much simpler in most cases.

"Best" is like God...no room for improvement
HAR!....In all my years as a gunmaker, I've never been asked to set up a sporter stock just for bench rest shooting...That's a whole specialty in itself. You need to rethink or clarify that one.

Most all factory bolt rifles and the vast majority of synthetic stocks have high, straight combs just clearing the bolt with little drop to the heel. Stocks for shooting offhand have some drop, both at the comb and more at the heel. Offhand stock usually have a longer LOP as well.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Most all factory bolt rifles and the vast majority of synthetic stocks have high, straight combs just clearing the bolt with little drop to the heel. Stocks for shooting offhand have some drop, both at the comb and more at the heel. Offhand stock usually have a longer LOP as well.

That's a bit clearer. A lot of people prefer a straight comb, "American classic"style. The Brits had a different idea, maybe for the reasons that you pointed out.

quote:

I was fitted for a shotgun, both O/U and S/S, using a try gun at the Holland & Holland Shooting School. I use the same measurements on the double rifle stocks I have had made for my own use.

You shouldn't. The drop on a shotgun is set for shooting a rising bird. To put 60% of the pattern above the mark you are shooting at.

So it is less more drop on a double rifle. As it is set to put the shot "dead on" or, if it were a shotgun 50% above the mark.

If you read the writer Stonehenge (John Henry Walsh) he says as much. I think he also mentions about the LOP but I forget what was said.

Pitch is highly underrated. One can"move" the POI up and down quite effectively

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

I was fitted for a shotgun, both O/U and S/S, using a try gun at the Holland & Holland Shooting School. I use the same measurements on the double rifle stocks I have had made for my own use.

You shouldn't. The drop on a shotgun is set for shooting a rising bird. To put 60% of the pattern above the mark you are shooting at.

So it is less more drop on a double rifle. As it is set to put the shot "dead on" or, if it were a shotgun 50% above the mark.

If you read the writer Stonehenge (John Henry Walsh) he says as much. I think he also mentions about the LOP but I forget what was said.

Shooting at the H&H school involves some rising birds, but also a simulated grouse pit, where the birds are coming toward the shooter as well as a high duck-pheasant tower, where the shots are directly overhead.

I wish I had known that the measurements were off before taking the guns to Africa. Since I didn't, I killed everything I aimed at, including elephant, buffalo, lion, leopard, eland and kudu.

I think the use of a scope effectively nullifies the difference in pointing you mention, and all my double rifles and combination guns are scoped.

quote:

...Shooting at the H&H school involves some rising birds, but also a simulated grouse pit, where the birds are coming toward the shooter as well as a high duck-pheasant tower, where the shots are directly overhead.

FWIW, shooting at a rising bird requires shot placement above the bird, and shooting an incoming bird (ala driven grouse) requires shot placement in front of the incomer... in most situations effectively the same thing.

"I one were to set up a rifle for the prone position only, pretty easy to see that the fit would be foolish in offhand."

Its rare a riflestock a set up for prone position but some do.
https://eric-briano-armurier.c...briano-armurier.html

I build my own stocks and a few for friends..I cut the stock as I go,and Im the "tryer"..

I don't see how you can compare a shotgun to a rifle,in that for instance a trap gun is much different fit than a field gun, a rifle shot from prone will be differendt than a rifle shot off hand, and a proper fitted DG rifle is must point true and absorb recoil and return to battery as fast as possible..The straight stock for a scoped rifle IMO is not a proper DG rifle in that it won't point, its purchase of iron sights is awkward to impossible..

The wonder of wonders is the human bodys capability to adjust to a rifle..Thousands of hunters get by pretty damn well with factory stocks, because the don't know better!

If I were buying a custom rifle I would try my best to send the maker a stock that I like best to be copied, better yet I would want to try it before the final finish was started, and see if it fit me, that would be ideal IMO..The old fashion close your eyes and point it, and open your eyes and be dead center on target still works pretty darn good..

Better yet is have stylist make a pattern stock that fits you, and send that to your gunsmith..

Just some ideas for consideration..Try stocks are close but no guarantee and no ceeegar IMO..The work best on shotguns...

I prefer a stock that works with irons and I scope it. Why does this work for me, probably because I was raised on early low comb mod. 70s, and we scoped them later in later years, and unknowingly made the adjustment, for that Im grateful..it still works for me..but it can be overdone either way, a good reason to have stocked gun in hand as you go, it many not work for some as facial, arm, chest measurements differ..

I know many good shooters, both professional and just good ole boys, that can shoot any rifle you put in their hands, can manage any trigger, and are excellent hunters..I know others who have only the best of high dollar guns and can't hit a barn door at 50 yards.