I haven't been on the forum as long as most, so I'm forever playing catch-up. Since day one, I always feel I've missed out on some sort of an orientation session or booklet or something, and this is one of those times. I've just read a couple of posts from members who are demonstrating the accuracy of their rifles (both very nice examples) by showing the grouping on targets. Written next to the cluster of holes is the caliber, bullet weight, loading, colour of underwear he was wearing that day (okay, I made that up.) My point is, lots of info. But NOWHERE does anyone ever give the least hint at what RANGE they shot this tiny group. So, here is my question: Does everyone here automatically shoot these targets at the same range that you long ago agreed upon among yourselves and of which I'm unaware? It really does make a difference how close to powder burns that target was sitting.

quote:

Originally posted by cdsx:
So, here is my question: Does everyone here automatically shoot these targets at the same range that you long ago agreed upon among yourselves and of which I'm unaware?

In general absent other info people post 100 yard targets for rifles. Pistol groups are all over the place. I generally assume 25 yards if not listed, though.

quote:

Originally posted by cdsx:
I haven't been on the forum as long as most, so I'm forever playing catch-up. Since day one, I always feel I've missed out on some sort of an orientation session or booklet or something, and this is one of those times. I've just read a couple of posts from members who are demonstrating the accuracy of their rifles (both very nice examples) by showing the grouping on targets. Written next to the cluster of holes is the caliber, bullet weight, loading, colour of underwear he was wearing that day (okay, I made that up.) My point is, lots of info. But NOWHERE does anyone ever give the least hint at what RANGE they shot this tiny group. So, here is my question: Does everyone here automatically shoot these targets at the same range that you long ago agreed upon among yourselves and of which I'm unaware? It really does make a difference how close to powder burns that target was sitting.

Those posts mean little to me. If a person would show a target with 5 targets on it instead of cherry picken a single target.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by cdsx:
I haven't been on the forum as long as most, so I'm forever playing catch-up. Since day one, I always feel I've missed out on some sort of an orientation session or booklet or something, and this is one of those times. I've just read a couple of posts from members who are demonstrating the accuracy of their rifles (both very nice examples) by showing the grouping on targets. Written next to the cluster of holes is the caliber, bullet weight, loading, colour of underwear he was wearing that day (okay, I made that up.) My point is, lots of info. But NOWHERE does anyone ever give the least hint at what RANGE they shot this tiny group. So, here is my question: Does everyone here automatically shoot these targets at the same range that you long ago agreed upon among yourselves and of which I'm unaware? It really does make a difference how close to powder burns that target was sitting.

Those posts mean little to me. If a person would show a target with 5 targets on it instead of cherry picken a single target.

Yeah - I love the posts where a guy shoots a single 3 shot group that is tiny and proclaims "I just found my load!" Especially if that load is like a 1/2 grain different than the previous one that was 1.5 inches.

It's always 100 yards; that has been the standard for rifle accuracy testing since the Civil War Rifle-Muskets were tested.
Maybe earlier but we didn't have many rifled arms before that.
It is not an AR invented standard by any means.
While it is true that one group does not indicate a trend, it is what it is; an example of what was done. There is no guarantee that any new owner has the skill, or luck, to duplicate it, and there is no point in trying to read anything else from it.

And..heavens...nobody would cheat!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
And..heavens...nobody would cheat!

Powder burns? Whaddaya mean powder burns???

My rifle shoots quarter minute groups all day long. Translation: My rifle shot one group that measured .320”, but I fudged .075” cause it sounds better.

I have to agree with all the above posters.

Generally it's assumed to be 100 yards unless otherwise noted.

I also agree that most guys shoot one great (lucky) group and proclaim they own a laser. I know a guy who loved to show me 2 shot groups and proclaim how wonderful his rifle shoots! There are also guys who shoot a group and proclaim they "pulled" a couple out of the group and go on to measure 3 of the 5 shots to determine size.

Show me 5 qty, 5 shot groups and then we can talk!

Zeke

And then realize that 5 shot groups in any amount do not mean anything in a hunting rifle. Only the first, and maybe the second, and rarely the third, mean squat. So if any rifle can put two or three shots into (put whatever you want to here) then it is GTG.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
And then realize that 5 shot groups in any amount do not mean anything in a hunting rifle. Only the first, and maybe the second, and rarely the third, mean squat. So if any rifle can put two or three shots into (put whatever you want to here) then it is GTG.

It’s interesting that given this fact, so many want their rifle to be so much more. I don’t hunt much anymore, but do shoot competitively. Ive built both competitive, and hunting rifles, using the same techniques. I’ve blueprinted many receivers for hunting rifles, and they come out as straight as the best custom. Custom actions are configured to shoot quicker, that’s why they’ve taken over in BR competitions. Most of the hunting rifles Ive built shoot sub half inch 3 shot groups, from a fouled barrel, but not back to back, to back. That’s not what they’re designed for. Thin barrels heat up, and groups open up...

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
And then realize that 5 shot groups in any amount do not mean anything in a hunting rifle. Only the first, and maybe the second, and rarely the third, mean squat. So if any rifle can put two or three shots into (put whatever you want to here) then it is GTG.

It’s interesting that given this fact, so many want their rifle to be so much more. I don’t hunt much anymore, but do shoot competitively. Ive built both competitive, and hunting rifles, using the same techniques. I’ve blueprinted many receivers for hunting rifles, and they come out as straight as the best custom. Custom actions are configured to shoot quicker, that’s why they’ve taken over in BR competitions. Most of the hunting rifles Ive built shoot sub half inch 3 shot groups, from a fouled barrel, but not back to back, to back. That’s not what they’re designed for. Thin barrels heat up, and groups open up...

I learned something else today.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
And then realize that 5 shot groups in any amount do not mean anything in a hunting rifle. Only the first, and maybe the second, and rarely the third, mean squat. So if any rifle can put two or three shots into (put whatever you want to here) then it is GTG.

Exactly. The purpose of a rifle is to put a bullet where you want it, when you want it there; anything more is superfluous. Different tools for different jobs.

quote:

Originally posted by cdsx:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
And then realize that 5 shot groups in any amount do not mean anything in a hunting rifle. Only the first, and maybe the second, and rarely the third, mean squat. So if any rifle can put two or three shots into (put whatever you want to here) then it is GTG.

Exactly. The purpose of a rifle is to put a bullet where you want it, when you want it there; anything more is superfluous. Different tools for different jobs.

I have no issues with 3 shot groups if you shoot a bunch using the same aiming point and then measure their extreme spread.

Sample size means a great deal in the world of statistics. The more observations, the more confident you will become. I can flip a coin and have it land heads three times in a row every eight times I do it. To get the same coin to land heads five times in a row would require, on average, 32 tries. Same logic with shooting groups. The larger the group size, the more confident you are in the absolute largest group it will shoot.

on the net everyone shoots bughole groups - usuallu at keyboard distances

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by cdsx:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
And then realize that 5 shot groups in any amount do not mean anything in a hunting rifle. Only the first, and maybe the second, and rarely the third, mean squat. So if any rifle can put two or three shots into (put whatever you want to here) then it is GTG.

Exactly. The purpose of a rifle is to put a bullet where you want it, when you want it there; anything more is superfluous. Different tools for different jobs.

I have no issues with 3 shot groups if you shoot a bunch using the same aiming point and then measure their extreme spread.

Sample size means a great deal in the world of statistics. The more observations, the more confident you will become. I can flip a coin and have it land heads three times in a row every eight times I do it. To get the same coin to land heads five times in a row would require, on average, 32 tries. Same logic with shooting groups. The larger the group size, the more confident you are in the absolute largest group it will shoot.

I certainly agree!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
And..heavens...nobody would cheat!

I'll lways remember the targets which came with the Golden Eagle (AKA gilded turkey)rifles. The powder burns were shockingly obvious.
The other one which was interesting was the Kleingunther which had bullet holes which looked like they were cut with a hole punch. The holes in a 25-06 target were exactly the same as the holes in a 300 win mag target.
We have asll seen those wallet targets people used to pack around in their wallet to show around. Today, the internet target has replaced that. Regards, Bill

I have never shot 5 shot groups on my hunting rifles and have never shot five 5 shot groups. Always shoot a 3 shot group and let the rifle cool to see if the group will repeat. Never looked for absolute largest groups either as small is what I am looking for. Smaller means more confidence even if the group size and number of groups shots is minimal compared to what I now know others do.

quote:

Originally posted by marley7x57:
I have never shot 5 shot groups on my hunting rifles and have never shot five 5 shot groups. Always shoot a 3 shot group and let the rifle cool to see if the group will repeat. Never looked for absolute largest groups either as small is what I am looking for. Smaller means more confidence even if the group size and number of groups shots is minimal compared to what I now know others do.

Like I said, if you superimposed five three shot groups on the same aiming point and it is a bug hole, great. But it is no different than shooting a fifteen shot group while letting your barrel cool between shots. And it isn't just a test of your rifle's accuracy; it is a measure of your loading technique and consistency.


Here is another analogy. We take two guys and let them shoot three point shots in basketball. One guy shoots three of three. The other guy shoots ten of ten. Who are you betting on to make the next three pointer?

In baseball a .200 hitter in September can go four for four in a game; doesn't mean he is no longer a .200 hitter; just means he got lucky.

All the talk about statistics reminds me of the saying:
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Group shooting is fine, and tiny groups are oh-so-satisfying. But can a guy simply "hit stuff" with his rifle? Can a guy put three shots into a 4-6" circle at 100 yards with his rifle fired while standing on his hind legs?

We've become a nation of benchresters. Nothing wrong with that- heck I'm one (old age and arthritis puts the kibosh to a lot of stuff). But, a guy who spends his shooting life hunkered at a bench isn't necessarily a "rifleman"- he's a tester of rifle ability, not necessarily a tester of his own ability.

I have shot benchrest for many years. If my hunting rifle shoots MOA with a cold barrel, hot barrel, clean or dirty with the same POI, I put it up until I walk out in the field. Nothing more boring to me than sitting on a stool at the range looking to remove a tenth of my group size.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I have shot benchrest for many years. If my hunting rifle shoots MOA with a cold barrel, hot barrel, clean or dirty with the same POE, I put it up until I walk out in the field. Nothing more boring to me than sitting on a stool at the range looking to remove a tenth of my group size.

Except for the actual BR rigs, which of course need to shoot small to win, I wholeheartedly agree. I love putting hunting rifles together, but once done, a quick load work up is done, And it’s ready to hunt. If I didn’t shoot competitively, I’d probably spend more time with the hunting rigs.

Where is Beretta Mike to tell us about the incredible "accuracy" of his latest Blaser thingofamajig contraption?

quote:

Where is Beretta Mike to tell us about the incredible "accuracy" of his latest Blaser thingofamajig contraption?

Todd, didn't you see the thread about the new 1,000 yard record? :-)

I shoot tiny one shot groups all the time !!!!

Hip

I think you can assume the range is 100 yards..

That's what I would display were I in a mind to do so.

I start at 50 or 75 yards at my house, then go to a water tank down the road for finishing up at 100 yards..

I also shoot at a homemade targets at 200, 300 and 400 yards there, its flat and desert for miles..

I don't know why anyone would quote a group wrong, it serves no purpose, besides I never look at someone elses target only mine.

So Ray, is it still a water tank?
Stephen

...and everybody shoots groups in perfect conditions except me. No wind, no mirage, rest is perfect, and these 80 year old eyes see like a teenager. Yeah, right.

cdsx I noticed that too. They probably forgot to write it on the target and shot at 100 yards if using a scoped rifle. 100 yards is close to 1 minute of angle. 1 MOA is about 1.04 inches at exactly 100 yards which is the benchmark for accuracy by manufacturers and custom built to your spec rifles.
Open sight standard is 75 yards.

Lord,
WE have irrigation in Southern Idaho its a big dirt tank fed by the canal system, always water, but the point is the sides are piled dirt 200 ft. high, good back stop..and the area allows for any range you might want to shoot..I shoot and sight in there..If its a rifle I intend to hunt with I will sight in then shoot a 3 shot group at up to 400 yards a document my POI at 100, 200, 300 and 400, tape in on the butt of my rifle..always with the 3"s high at 100 yards..I know, that's old fashion and doesn't work, but Jack O said it did and it has for my life time, at least so far!!

Sample targets are like great photos... a good photographer only shows his best prints. You never see those out of focus or where the subject moved.

quote:

Originally posted by Uncle Grinch:
Sample targets are like great photos... a good photographer only shows his best prints. You never see those out of focus or where the subject moved.

Yes Sir!

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by Uncle Grinch:
Sample targets are like great photos... a good photographer only shows his best prints. You never see those out of focus or where the subject moved.

Yes Sir!

The Far Side version of a tight group photo is the "called flyer." Notice no one ever shoots a six shot group if one of the first five is a "called flyer?" Sort of like admitting you can't hold steady for five shots; I don't get it.

Butch: do you get to use the "called flyer" in BR? How far would that get you? Might get a laugh at the wailing wall...you should try it.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by Uncle Grinch:
Sample targets are like great photos... a good photographer only shows his best prints. You never see those out of focus or where the subject moved.

Yes Sir!

The Far Side version of a tight group photo is the "called flyer." Notice no one ever shoots a six shot group if one of the first five is a "called flyer?" Sort of like admitting you can't hold steady for five shots; I don't get it.

Butch: do you get to use the "called flyer" in BR? How far would that get you? Might get a laugh at the wailing wall...you should try it.

Several years ago at a match at Dietz's range in New Braunfels, Tx. I was doing well with my first 4 5 shot groups had me in first with a .187 group agg. 1 more good group and the match was mine. My first 4 shots were in a .153 and I knew I was the winner. I got anxious on my fifth shot and put my shoulder into the butt. The fifth shot fell out the bottom for a .911 group. I still have that target. I went from first to 21st.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
And then realize that 5 shot groups in any amount do not mean anything in a hunting rifle. Only the first, and maybe the second, and rarely the third, mean squat. So if any rifle can put two or three shots into (put whatever you want to here) then it is GTG.

The group on a target that comes with a double rifle to show REGULATION are my main pain in the butt.
These targets are presented as four shot groupings on a target @ 100 meters. They are numbered 2=Right, and 2 left @100 mtrs.
with no other mention time between the shots, or the type resting of the rifle.
Anyone who knows double rifles knows that the time laps between shots in this group not being mentioned makes the group a mystery.
The reason for this is a double rifle must regulate with two rights and two left being fired from a starting point with cool barrels to mean anything. This is because a double rifle is designed to be used with four shots in rapped shots with a quick reload between the first two and the second two and fired on target. This because a double rifle is not only a hunting rifle as well as a defense stopper.
four shots on a piece of paper without this information is simply window dressing, nothing more.

the group target for a double rifle if properly done will give the owner the information he needs to someday save his or someone else's life. Far more important than if he can hit a target @100 mtrs
……………………………………………………………………………………………. MacD37

If I was shooting 5 shot groups and got 4 in a 1/2 group, Id quit and call it a 1/2 inch4 shot group, Id be crazy to ruin my 4 shot group with a frigging flyer!!

Several years ago at a match at Dietz's range in New Braunfels, Tx. I was doing well with my first 4 5 shot groups had me in first with a .187 group agg. 1 more good group and the match was mine. My first 4 shots were in a .153 and I knew I was the winner. I got anxious on my fifth shot and put my shoulder into the butt. The fifth shot fell out the bottom for a .911 group. I still have that target. I went from first to 21st.[/QUOTE]

As you know, when a shooter had the misfortune of parking one outside the group, before the last shot, common practice is to "fill in" or firing the last round between the shots. One of the neatest examples of this happened as I watched the guy next to me shoot his group (I had gotten my shots away quickly and became a spectator). Harlan had put three shots into about .1". He lined up for his fouth shot and fired. The shot went right into the center of the cluster and didn't enlarge it at all. At the same time or immediately thereafter, a ladybug landed on his target; about 5/8 inch up and to the right. There was a lot of muttering and, yes, some swearing from Harlan. He racked in another round and sent it downrange before I could even open my mouth. That fifth shot hit precisely between the group and the ladybug which stayed right where it was. Harlan, still muttering, snapped his cartridge box closed and got up. By the time the targets were up on the wall, the ladybug had, of course, absconded. Harlan was looking at his target, which ended up as a high 3 and said, "Hell, it's not as bad as I thought. I thought I had one way out." It was a while later that I told him about the bug. Regards, Bill.