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Can't afford them? I figure that anyone who can afford to travel from coast to coast FOR A RIFLE MATCH can probably afford most anything he wants if he wants it bad enough. One of my shooting buds is a fellow who takes his 2 boys to Hickory with him, of course he only has to go maybe 1000 mi or so. He owns an airplane that costs almost $1 million, so $32K is not a real difficulty for him. Except he has enough sense to be aware of the truth of the second phrase in your response above. 'Nuff said. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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This is stupid. I cannot see one good solitary reason to bring "competition" rifles into this discussion. | |||
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This rifle, one of the least costly I have could not be replicated for $2500.00 as the parts cost that much. Pay a good smith a decent wage and the end price is much higher. I am not one to spend money on guns without serious consideration to value and, having been at this a long time, I am pretty good at scoring sweet deals on choice rifles. I will, however, spend what it takes to get a rifle that IS truely functional and, IME, one cannot now do this in Canada in the price range you posted. But, each to his own, my idea of a "perfect" rifle and yours or another guys may well be very different. | |||
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Gotta agree, serious big game rifles and competition target rifles have little in common and comparing them is futile. | |||
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Just because you do not know anyone who has a David Miller Rifle does not make those who own them have any less "sense" than your friend. Even though the working characteristics of a rifle can be objectively measured, a rifle's utility is very subjective. Pride of ownership, enjoyment of an object, and a host of other unmeasureable things might make a certain rifle much more valuable to a person than another, and cause a person to be willing to pay more than for another. People will pay 100 million dollars for a piece of canvas with some oil paint on it because it pleases them to own it. I don't see that as stupid or foolish even though their might be other pieces of canvas with oil paint on them that cost far less. In the same vein, I don't see the ownership of a Miller rifle as stupid or foolish even though there are other choices that cost far less. Same with cars, houses, clothes, etc. nuff said. | |||
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For folks that know what goes into building a precision long range accuracy platform and know how to use it that fact is shall we say debatable counselor. Go ahead and make your case on the merits---we are waiting for your argument to be presented.  Facts please not just your very limited knowledge of the subject of accuracy. Maybe start with your definition of the “required intrinsic value” of the subject firearm in question and how many precision sporters that you own or have owned. Next explain that when you shoot or have shot them at let’s say 500 to 1k and what was the result. Poor guy has dug himself in a hole so deep by making unsupportable statements he is going to have his case thrown out of court.  | |||
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Right Dewey..  There has been a Win M70 Stainless Classic 375H&H w/McMillan LNIB for $1350.00 on CGN since Sunday (1/16) morning.. | |||
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I do not own any "precision" sporters and have never owned one. I don't know what goes into making one. I understand intrisnic value because I own things that give me pleasure. I don't see where I have made an unsupportable statement. Lets have someone independent make that decision. Not owning one and not knowing what goes into making one is irrelevant to the issue of whether people may find value in owning a David Miller Rifle. I don't know how to paint either, as I suspect those who purchase expensive paintings do not know how to paint like Van Gogh or Rembrandt or whoever. They still derive utility or value out of owning the object. I suspect that those who purchase expensive cars and expensive watches do not know how to make them or what goes into them. In other words, knowing how to make something is irrelevant to enjoying something, or in other words, gaining utility from it. I think you are misunderstanding my point. I am not saying that a David Miller rifle is any better than a Wiebe rifle or a Sppedy Rifle or any other rifle. What I am saying, very simply, once again, is that no one can judge another person's utility of an object. If a person enjoys owning a David Miller Rifle and has the money to pay for it, I don't see how someone else can call that foolish or stupid, just as I could not say to anyone else that there choice in rifles or anything else is foolish or stupid, which I have not said. Your continued use of public Appeals to prestige (I am correct because I work with Speedy, I have all of these fancy rifles, I know everything) and your Ad Hominem arguments (attempting to prove a point by attacking my person) continue to make you look foolish. This is not about what I think or have knowledge of. Its about what owners of David Miller Rifles think. | |||
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I know one guy with a Miller rifle, it's a somewhat ordinary wood stock with tasteful fittings and impeccable workmanship. Cost a little under $15K at that time, a VERY few years ago. He also has lots of other fine bolt rifles from other makers. He owns no plastic-stocked rifles except one Remington Sendero he uses for benchmark accuracy testing comparisons. In my mind it's not so much that the Miller rifles don't perform, of course they perform quite well indeed. My opinion is that an equal or superior level of appearance and performance can be had for between 1/5 and 1/3 of the Miller price, with the Miller name and associated braggin' rights accounting for the extra $20K. If you think it's worth $32K, fine, go for it! If you think you'll like hunting with a $32K-plastic-stock Miller owner, fine, schedule a hunt with him! You guys can have a big laugh at my expense while you're congratulating yourselves on your firearms acumen! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Joe Once again, you have not read what I have said. I am not arguing that a Miller rifle is any better than any other rifle. Nor am I arguing that they are worth the price asked. I don't know that because I don't own one. What I am saying, very simply, is that I don't believe that anyone can judge the utility another person receives from something they own. You have repeatedly stated that a Miller Rifle is not worth what is being asked for it. I have never said I disagree with that. If that is how YOU feel about it, I respect that. What I am saying is that I don't think you can judge whether somebody else feels the rifle is worth the amount of money they paid for it. Or to put it another way, what I am saying is that I don't think you or anyone else can say that another person is stupid or foolish for spending their money on a Miller rifle or any other rifle for that matter. You can say you wouldn't buy one for that price because you feel its stupid or foolish, but you cannot logically say that about anyone else because you aren't them!!! That is what I have said from the very begining. Here is what I said on the 15th. quote [I just don't see where a person should be labeled as foolish or stupid just because they purchase a David Miller Rifle for $32,000, or pay $12,000 (or more) for a Duane Wiebe Rifle, or $10,000 (or more) for a James Anderson Rifle, or $80,000 (ore more) for a Fabbri or Holland and Holland shotgun.]quote It truly is as simple as that, and has has nothing to do with precision rifles or anything else. | |||
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J.D. did they have a hooked parachute cord cutter on it? We called them jumpmaster knives if it's the same thing. | |||
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If you want real quality over hype in a custom rifle check out this maker.... http://www.plholehancustomrifles.com/ There are many custom rifle builders where you get real value for the dollars spent....a few that I am familiar with come to mind. Patrick is one, and then there is John Bolliger, D'Arcy Echols, Duane Wiebe, Kenny Jarrett....... "When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all." Theodore Roosevelt | |||
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Poor guys client just got the electric chair and he is still trying to figure out which Court to go to and which Judge is presiding  ....In the weeds on this subject-----need to just let him wind down and feel good about himself. This lawyer will never let you get in the last word even if the Judge and Jury have left the building.  | |||
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It would seem from the quote below that you are perjuring yourself because it is clear at least to me that you are saying any other rifle besides the one in question here are only “adequate”. “Probably because they can't afford them, or because they can get an ADEQUATE rifle for less money.” Would seem your expert testimony has been impugned by contradictory statements by YOU. | |||
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I am not testifying nor have I made contradictory statements. You seem to think that I am arguing that a David Miller Rifle is superior to other rifles. Quite the contrary. I am making the argument that one cannot judge what another values something at. Please try and understand that because for some reason that does not seem to register. It seems you are so interested in making your Ad Hominem and Ad Populum arguments (the previous two posts) that you fail to read what I have said. You have misunderstood what I meant by adequate. adequate = equal to the requirement for the occasion. Since I cannot know the requirement or the occasion, that was the proper word to use. Here, for some people, a David Miller rifle may be adequate. For others, such as yourself, a Speedy Gonzales rifle may be adequate. I don't know. I cannot make that judgment for other people. Nor can anyone else. And that, simply stated, is my argument, and has been the entire time. | |||
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Sure did! Neatest thing since sliced bread, to us at that time & place! Mainly since they were so hard to get back then..... Don't get me wrong, you couldn't actually USE the knife for anything much besides a nail trimmer or a box opener, but, like a lotta other things we cherish, the Braggin' Rights were impressive! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I have another question and concern. On this 'ultimate wilderness hunting rifle', where, exactly, is the backup sighting system? IMO, on an 'ultimate wilderness hunt', the hunter's rifle not having a backup sighting system is closely akin to driving from CA to NY with no spare tire and no jack. That's one definition of 'stupidity' in my book. Seems to me that this rifle is more suitable for day-trippers than serious wilderness hunters. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Joe When I was at the SCI thing last year I stopped by the Miller booth (I was hoping to see that fancy elephant rifle which wasn't there) and asked him about iron sights. He quickly explained his theory that a stock cannot serve two masters, or, in other words, if you build a stock for iron sights that stock would not be proper for Telescopic Sights, and vice versa. Apparently those who purchase Miller rifles agree with him, and one can order non scoped rifles from Miller. You are well aware that some of the major gun companies do the same. All of the Winchester rifles I own did not come with back up iron sights (i.e. they are not pre-64s). If someone really wanted irons on their Miller Rifle they could have them added (although probably not by Miller), but Miller's custom telescopic mounting system does not lend itself to easy dismantling. Tom Turpin, in his book, states that Miller suggests buying extra of the exact same scope when ordering a rifle. So I would imagine that the "spare tire" that you speak of in this case is a spare scope, and one would have to bring a screwdriver (jack) to change it out. | |||
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I suggest that Miller's explanation is his attempt to justify his extreme approach to scope mounting, with his personal and very recognizable (and therefore very exclusive/expensive) design. A truly good salesman, eh? OF COURSE a stock cannot serve 2 masters, no one is saying that it should. Just as the typical spare tire is frequently not a perfect substitute for the flat one, so can the backup sighting system be somewhat less than perfect. The main requirement is that it BE THERE! As far as exchanging scopes with a screwdriver, the POI is GUARANTEED to shift, period, end of discussion. You ask how I know this? Long and exhaustive and still-ongoing personal testing of various QD scope mounting systems since 1970, that's how. I find it ludicrous that he even suggested such a lame solution but I guess he had no better answer. Anyway I think you oughta buy one of the rifles and report back to us (grin). After all, it's gonna be an 'Old Master' worth millions, right? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Miller's system is NOT a QD system. Obviously, you would resight the rifle before using the new scope. I don't find that ludicrous. I'd would have liked to have purchased one many years ago when I was still young. Now, at my age it wouldn't do much good. | |||
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I am getting sick of hearing this one. Of course a stock can't work "equally well" with both scope and irons(unless the line of sight is the same for both). But it can work well enough to allow the shooter to use either. Using this same logic, one would be required to use different stocks depending on whether a scope would be mounted in high or low rings. Just look at all the stocks build with iron sights in mind(most everything pre 1960s). I have had stocks with high, thick combs that were perfect for scope use but required you to mash your face to use the irons. They would not be what you would want for everyday use, but for back-up they were fine. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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How many guys here are actually using their back up irons? Just curious. | |||
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'Bout the same number that 'use' their spare tires. But would you set out an a several-days' drive without a spare? I've had to use my aux sights only a very few times in 50 years, but I always make sure they're zeroed anyway, every year at the last sight-in check. Plus I usually have the scope on and off repeatedly for iron-sight practice during the off-season. But that's just me. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I don't. Frankly I don't use them on anything other than a lever action .44 (hog gun). I can see them as back ups on a GD big bore or on a DR. But for me, certainly not on an open range cartridege .270, etc. As far as the return to zero. Patrick Holehan has one pretty damn good. You supply him with a scope. He welds up/double square bridges his receivers, integral dovetails them etc, redoes the rings with an underlug..... originally he used Warnes but now uses Talleys. You can order a second set of rings for a back up scope.  There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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What is "a very few"? Just curious, because the last 10 day trip into the mountains I took with my brother and cousin (self done) we discussed it quite a bit prior to leaving. We contemplated a backup scope between us but decided we had two serviceable backup scopes bolted to two serviceable rifles that would be along already. At times we were literally two days from the nearest lightbulb so I would not consider going without a backup human being equipped with a second rifle. As one of us nearly met their waterloo on the trip I figure that is sound practice. From a logical standpoint in todays world, back up irons seem illogical allot of the time. | |||
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Yeah, and just like a spare tire, back-up irons are a HUGE pain-in-the-neck.  Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I wonder if a backup human being is less costly than the Miller "gragun" that has engendered all the fiesty rhetoric here the past couple of days..............???? I do and often have gone into very remote wilderness areas solo and I ALWAYS equip my hunting rifles with QD mounts and good, sighted iron sights. I spend considerably more on each rifle to make this happen and would not be without them. | |||
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Dollar for dollar one cannot get better value in a custom rifle than one built by Holehan. "When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all." Theodore Roosevelt | |||
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"When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all." Theodore Roosevelt | |||
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1967, Redfield fogged, went to irons. 1970, rifle bounced out of truck's gun rack, broke scope, went to irons. 1970, another Redfield fogged, went to irons. 1976, dropped rifle in boat, broke scope, went to irons. 1981, heavy rain and fog, went to irons and then went to camp after 3 hours. 1999, heavy rain and fog, went to irons (shooting house). When reading the above it's obvious that as the years passed, I quit using Redfields and quit hunting with the partner who helped me bounce and drop the rifles. Haven't quit using the irons, our section of the country is quite wet. No mountains and no rocks though, so bumps and knocks are usually not a big problem. Nevertheless had a 3x-9x scope break in half once and another one almost as bad. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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So shoot crappy scopes out of a house in the rain and you need backup irons? Funny, but about what I figured. | |||
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You do it your way and I'll do it mine. But at least I don't need a backup human being (grin). "You'll never go broke betting on human stupidity!" - P.T.Barnum(IIRC) Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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At sight-in after arrival in Namibia in 2005, I found that the scope on my .416 Rigby had somehow or other been broken by the airline baggage mishandlers. This, notwithstanding that I had packed my rifle and scope in a well-padded hard rifle case made from 0.80" aluminum. Given the money I spent on that safari, I was very glad to have iron sights on that rifle. I used them to good effect.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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8/10th of an inch of aluminum! Now that's heavy duty, Mike. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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When you hunt rats out of a house I can see why. | |||
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Yes, indeed. What's a misguided decimal place among friends? Assuming that I have any, of course. For the record: 0.08" would be the correct measurement. Still pretty thick enough, one would think. But not in this case. Back up irons are a good idea. I have some rifles without them, but that is just due to laziness on my part. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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No backup scope? I've got 2 sets of backup rings for both my .375 H&H and Rigby- that is one in 1" and 30mm for each rifle. The one thing missed by all is the fact that these better smiths all put a lot of time and effort in the scope mounts. IIRC Echols also designs his own mounting system which is tough as nails. He too did not offer sights on Legends for a while. Bottom line is that the scope will fail on these guys rifles, not the mounting system. Ain't nothin to replace a scope and sight er in.....unless you're a 'tard...... There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Ah, well, there you have it. One might bring a back up scope, and I have done so many times. Yet, this time I did not have one. And Murphy's law came into play with a vengeance. Still, the irons sufficed for all purposes, so where does that leave us? Better to have irons than not. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Michael. At least your honest. Good for you............... Since we're off topic. I had put my .270 in my case on my bench the night before I left for ol' Mexico. Next morning I go into my gun room and the case and rifle are on the floor. No time to do anything. I get to Sonora and I wanted to sight it in.......No amigo we go hunting.... Luck would have it we saw a burro. I shot, everyone's giving high fives.........but no deer, no blood, no nuttin..... Get back to camp and shoot-> 5" to the left and 4" high. Got er squared up and shot a nice 7x5 on my last day. Iron sights would not have been good: I wouldn't have tried to shoot that burro with em at 257yds. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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