quote:

Originally posted by Tsquare2:

Value judgments aside, it would appear to me that unless Miller added significant weight to the butt end of that High Tech stock, the rifle is going to balance and point like shit.

That has to be at least a #5 barrel, and paired with a light stock it would be a nose-heavy pig.

Lots to like about that rifle, but on the surface, balance is not among the attributes I'd consider positive.

I'd like to be proven wrong, but it doesn't seem to make sense to me to pick such a plain, standard, off the shelf stock. If someone is able and willing to pay $30,000+ for a custom rifle, a couple hundred bucks either way wouldn't seem to be much of an issue if it means getting a unique stock.

I'm sure that the rifle is superbly Built, as David's reputation is stellar. however, I'm somewhat surprised that David chose to build his rifle in an off the shelf stock given the attention that gets paid to the stocks on his other rifles.

CAS,

The stock is not an off the shelf stock. On the contrary, the stock for the GraGun was designed and built in the Miller shop, and then sent off to Bansner to replicate. The stock on this rifle received no less attention than any other stock coming from the David Miller Co.

I've played with it a bit, and the balance is just like every other Miller rifle, well nigh perfect.

As to whether the rifle is worth the price it takes to get one, only each individual can decide that for themselves. Folks that have never seen one, never handled one, and never shot one, condemning the cost as ludicrous, can only speak for themselves. How does one decide what a particular item is "worth?" And for whom? Any item, regardless of what it is, is worth exactly what the owner of the item will take for it, and the prospective buyer of the item will pay for it. What you and I think, unless we are either the seller or the buyer of the item, means nothing.

TT

quote:

Originally posted by Tsquare2:
CAS,
The stock on this rifle received no less attention than any other stock coming from the David Miller Co.
TT

The original pattern stock did, sure, but all these others are just plastic clones and therefore should be a LOT cheaper since they don't require NEARLY as much work as a wood stock. Your statement is ridiculous on the face of it.

If you wanta pay 3x or 4x the cost for an equally-but-no-better-performing rifle, go ahead. But DON'T expect most of the rest of us to think you're a smart fellow for doing it. If you want the Miller name then I guess you'll hafta pay their freight, but if you want the performance then better performance is available for A LOT less money from A LOT more sources.

If Miller rifles were the best performers then they'd be winning matches.

They're not.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

IMO, anyone who pays that kind of money for a Winchester 70 in a plastic stock is probably not someone I'd care to have as a wilderness hunting companion. Far more money than sense.
Regards, Joe

JD, while I agree with the rest of your post, having spent more than a few hunts with hunters carring Echol's Legend ( over priced "plastic POS rifles" as some have called them), I will respectfully disagree with this opinion.
The majority of the ones I know have put their money into one or two Echol's rifles that they have confidence in - and chose not to waste it chasing after one rifle after another.
The ones I know are pragmatic, down-to-earth folks who were a real joy to spend time in the wilderness with.

I know both David Miller and D'Arcy Echols and they are simply gunbuilders who are not afraid to charge basically the same hourly rate for their ability and shop time as your average auto mechanic.

Joe,

I will only say, once again, that an item, any item,is worth exactly what the seller is willing to take for it, and the prospective buyer is willing to pay. What you and I think, unless we are the seller or the buyer, is meaningless.

Obviously,you're never going to be in the market for a Miller GraGun. Neither am I. Let's just leave it at that.

TT

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Tsquare2:
CAS,
The stock on this rifle received no less attention than any other stock coming from the David Miller Co.
TT

The original pattern stock did, sure, but all these others are just plastic clones and therefore should be a LOT cheaper since they don't require NEARLY as much work as a wood stock. Your statement is ridiculous on the face of it.

If you wanta pay 3x or 4x the cost for an equally-but-no-better-performing rifle, go ahead. But DON'T expect most of the rest of us to think you're a smart fellow for doing it. If you want the Miller name then I guess you'll hafta pay their freight, but if you want the performance then better performance is available for A LOT less money from A LOT more sources.

If Miller rifles were the best performers then they'd be winning matches.

They're not.
Regards, Joe

Joe---Very Good Point! In fact I wonder how David's guns would compare in a shoot off with shall we say one of Speedy's rifles? I know where I would put my money esp if Speedy was shooting it!

Putting my money where my mouth is I will pay Speedy to build the rifle (which he can do in 24 hours if he wants to have seen him do it) and they can meet at the Whittington Center for a little shoot off----winner will get the others rifle!!

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

JD, while I agree with the rest of your post, having spent more than a few hunts with hunters carring Echol's Legend ( over priced "plastic POS rifles" as some have called them), I will respectfully disagree with this opinion.
The majority of the ones I know have put their money into one or two Echol's rifles that they have confidence in - and chose not to waste it chasing after one rifle after another.
The ones I know are pragmatic, down-to-earth folks who were a real joy to spend time in the wilderness with.

I know both David Miller and D'Arcy Echols and they are simply gunbuilders who are not afraid to charge basically the same hourly rate for their ability and shop time as your average auto mechanic.

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment and have said so on the synthetic v. wood thread. As I get older I have found out that there really isn't anything I need more than a .270 Win and .300 Win for nearly all my hunting needs. (Yes a .375 H&H and Rigby for dangerous stuff) but in general those 2 cover everything I need. I see no need to duplicate/overlap similar applications with many different calibers/rifles.

There are 2 types of smiths: one type builds works safe queens that are taken out for show and tell, they are handled delicately both in the field and at home in sloooow motion so as not to nick the wood, they look great, adequate function when clean, they can shoot minute of animal, are taken out and kill one animal and then put back in the safe.

The other type of smith is a hunter and builds rifles that will function above all else and shoot with near bench rest accuracy. As I said earlier Miller & Crum are hunters, Echols & Sisk are hunters by nature, Holehan even guides for chrissakes (Crum turns his blanks by the way).

As I see it, you can pay to have a nigged out rifle or one that hunts. In my books I'd pay the $11K for an Echols or other hunter over a safe queen every day.

To me the fool is the one that pays $10K for a safequeen- talk about an impractical waste of $.........next to his Rolex, plastic trophy wife, little pecker, etc etc etc

I've found the fit and finish by those hunter-smiths is better than guns built by people with initials behind their names, they're just not fancy pimped out rifles. And at least those guys build rifles that actually work when you cycle a bolt.


PS I do agree with the Rolex analogy as they are considered nouveau riche and quite pedestrian in horological circles.

Boss,

You're right, Miller rifles are not winning matches. Neither are Echols rifles. A primary reason for that fact is than neither Miller nor Echols build target rifles. Both men build hunting rifles. I don't know who Speedy is, but I'd guess that I've not seen one of his rifles in the hunting fields.

TT

quote:

Originally posted by Tsquare2:
Boss,

You're right, Miller rifles are not winning matches. Neither are Echols rifles. A primary reason for that fact is than neither Miller nor Echols build target rifles. Both men build hunting rifles. I don't know who Speedy is, but I'd guess that I've not seen one of his rifles in the hunting fields.

TT

Hmmmm I have a safe full of them:

Here is one--

Also here is another in process we did recently:





This Speedy:

quote:

Also here is another in process we did recently:

Boss

Which part did you do?

I think you make a good point, one that I was trying to make earlier. If you have the money for a certain piece of equipment and you like it, then buy it. You like Speedy Gonzalez's rifle for whatever they cost you. Some people like Duane Wiebe's rifles for whatever they cost them. Other's like David Miller's rifles for whatever they cost.

Each is willing to trade their time for the other's time, for in the end that is really all we each have to sell. To criticize another for the value they place on their own time and the time of another is what is foolish and ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Also here is another in process we did recently:

Which part did you do?

Smart Ass---Pictures do not lie also did the dies, bead blasting, some of the bedding prep and metal prep any more questions????:

Also the gum in the picture I did the bead blasting to match everything and remove the black finish from the HS detach mag spider web finish and marking of the barrel,skull bolt handle install and the brake milling.

I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass. That photo doesn't tell me anything about what you actually did.

And yes, I have a question. What do these rifles cost?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass. That photo doesn't tell me anything about what you actually did.

That specific pic is the fluting of the bolt shroud after truing so it would not drag on the firing pin assy!!!!!

All of my sporters are built like my BR guns-----absolute perfection!

Now are there any other questions counselor?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass. That photo doesn't tell me anything about what you actually did.

And yes, I have a question. What do these rifles cost?

Well that depends-----I have relationships with most manufacturers and buy direct. Speedy as well as a few other people in the industry helped me with that over the years. To answer your question point blank I do not remember because each one is different. Speedy at the end determines what we had to do --- deducts what I did and we go from there.

If you were to send him this pic and say I want a Warp 7 like Dave’s with no USO on top but including the bases and rings. Price would be close to 5k. The action alone is a little over 1k.

Just to be CLEAR the rifle in the anmial pics(Warp 7) is not the one Speedy is building---that was a 300 Jarrett.

I wish everyone here would calm down and exchange information and experience-based opinions on these various rifles and their utility/value in field conditions. The frequent references to the contents of other's pants is what one expects in a high school locker room and has no place here among supposedly mature men...OK?

Would I buy the Miller rifle.......if, I had the money without selling some of what I now have....probably. Would I buy an Echol's Legend, if I were 15 years younger, absolutely. Would I buy a Speedy, Bansner, Weibe, Borden or several other maker's rifles, yup, only age and income prevents me from doing so....WE ARE GUN NUTS FOR F**K SAKES!!!!!

Geez, guys, who CARES if someone wants to buy a Miller or a Stevens 200, it's their money!

Boss

You seem like a good guy. Proud of his guns and all that. And thats fine.

But you have two problems.

1. You don't seem to be able to carry on a conversation without attacking the other person if you don't like what that person said.

2. You seem to bring the other person's occupation into the conversation if you know what it is, even though it has no relevance to the conversation.

Here, we are talking about custom rifles. Specifically, the new offering by David Miller, and now some rifles that you have assisted in building.

I asked you questions about what part you played in building them, since you said you played a part in building them.

1. You called me a smart ass.
2. You mentioned my profession.

Most other people that I know here on this board would have listed what they did and that would have been it.

I think people would take you a lot more seriously if you got the chip off your shoulder, and if you stopped bragging so much about what you have. Your personal opinions about your guns are certainly valid, but no more valid than the personal opinions David Miller Rifle owners have about their guns.

When a person attacks the person of the other in an discussion, especially in a public place like a forum, the person is attempting to either impress the crowd or win an argument by placing ridicule on the other person. Sometimes it works for awhile, but in the end people finally see it for what it really is, which is an attempt to divert attention away from a lack of knowledge of the discussion, or no answer to an argument.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I wish everyone here would calm down and exchange information and experience-based opinions on these various rifles and their utility/value in field conditions. The frequent references to the contents of other's pants is what one expects in a high school locker room and has no place here among supposedly mature men...OK?

Would I buy the Miller rifle.......if, I had the money without selling some of what I now have....probably. Would I buy an Echol's Legend, if I were 15 years younger, absolutely. Would I buy a Speedy, Bansner, Weibe, Borden or several other maker's rifles, yup, only age and income prevents me from doing so....WE ARE GUN NUTS FOR F**K SAKES!!!!!

Geez, guys, who CARES if someone wants to buy a Miller or a Stevens 200, it's their money!

I understand but some people have no idea what it takes to build a perfect rifle... I feel sorry for the people who have money but no knowledge but if I were forced to choose between the two ------

Thanks for reminding me. I had previously complained about some of my guild rifles not functioning correctly....and this pic of Speedy reminded me of 2 earlier ones which I had completely forgotten about. (that would make 4 out of 5 clunkers from people with "hollow" initials behind their names)

I never met Speedy but he was quite helpful over the phone. My first custom rifle was built on a Mauser 99 action (used to be the [German] Voere Titan action). I was obsessed with/horded Kleinguenthers in the 80s and found a few of the 99 actions as donor rifles. At the time (70s-80s) Mr. Kleinguenther guaranteed 1/2" accuracy with his rifles and 1" with magnums.

Well a beautiful piece of wood, Krieger barrel, Conetrols with custom bases, 1 year later I go to shoot it and the bolt just wouldn't pick up a cartridge. One would think that the "master" smith & builder would have at least seen if the motherfucker would pick up a cartridge from the mag....well they didn't. I called Speedy up and over the phone he told me how to fix the goddamned thing.

His website was really cool too!!

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Boss

You seem like a good guy. Proud of his guns and all that. And thats fine.

But you have two problems.

1. You don't seem to be able to carry on a conversation without attacking the other person if you don't like what that person said.

2. You seem to bring the other person's occupation into the conversation if you know what it is, even though it has no relevance to the conversation.

Here, we are talking about custom rifles. Specifically, the new offering by David Miller, and now some rifles that you have assisted in building.

I asked you questions about what part you played in building them, since you said you played a part in building them.

1. You called me a smart ass.
2. You mentioned my profession.

Most other people that I know here on this board would have listed what they did and that would have been it.

I think people would take you a lot more seriously if you got the chip off your shoulder, and if you stopped bragging so much about what you have. Your personal opinions about your guns are certainly valid, but no more valid than the personal opinions David Miller Rifle owners have about their guns.

When a person attacks the person of the other in an discussion, especially in a public place like a forum, the person is attempting to either impress the crowd or win an argument by placing ridicule on the other person. Sometimes it works for awhile, but in the end people finally see it for what it really is, which is an attempt to divert attention away from a lack of knowledge of the discussion, or no answer to an argument.

We are not in a court room so do not attempt to spar with me as you will come out on the short end of the stick. Yes you asked the question in a Smart Ass manner as you have done many times before.

Just to put it bluntly so there is no way you can claim not to understand and I feel a little bad for saying it. You are the one who has no clue about me as there are people here who know me and just for your own edification it makes no difference what people Think they know about me.

Just to be clear----if someone wants to pay x amount for a rifle or a x for Vacheron Patrimony Traditionnelle openworked perpetual calendar watch I would hope they would have some appreciation of the product. In the end it is as they say "your throat your razor" spend your monies as you see fit.

I am sorry and feel responsible for starting this verbal free for all. I have no problem with smiths like Echols and their charge for a fine rifle. If I were 10 years younger, I would do just as Dewey suggested and have Echols make an 06 and a 338 for me. I have a synthetic that was built by Simillion that I cherish so I don't hate synthetic stocked guns. My point was how can this rifle be nearly 3 times the cost of an Echols gun and not be overpriced? I was not commenting on an individuals ability to afford the price. I was simply stating the price was not justifiable IMHO. I have seen the ego contests at SCI conventions when it became a show of financial muscle and crazy things happened. That is not the issue here.
I repeat my earlier comment that the article in Safari by Steve Comus is a joke trying to make sense of this gun and its extreme cost.

Boss

"Which part did you do" is smart ass?

Correct, we are not in a courtroom, so there is no need to call me counselor. Why not do what you are supposed to do and use the name that is listed on my posts (22WRF) just as I use your name listed on your posts (Boss).

I am not attempting to spar with you. Nor am I trying to win anything. I am participating in a conversation about guns.

It seems that it is you who appear to be sparing and attempting to win something! If its respect, you don't win it, you earn it.

And as I said, people will eventually see it for what it is, if they don't already.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Boss

"Which part did you do" is smart ass?

Correct, we are not in a courtroom, so there is no need to call me counselor. Why not do what you are supposed to do and use the name that is listed on my posts (22WRF) just as I use your name listed on your posts (Boss).

I am not attempting to spar with you. Nor am I trying to win anything. I am participating in a conversation about guns.

It seems that it is you who appear to be sparing and attempting to win something! If its respect, you don't win it, you earn it.

And as I said, people will eventually see it for what it is, if they don't already.

Sorry to have to do this but let me make this clear. You are not worth my time sir please do not go away mad just please go away. I will not post to any of your threads or comments and I trust you will do the same. Do we have an agreement yes or no is all I ask?

DWM

If I am not worth your time then don't respond to my posts. They have an ignore feature here and you should put me on it.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
If I am not worth your time then don't respond to my posts. They have an ignore feature here and you should put me on it.

Ok----I understand. Enjoy it just remember it was your choice.

quote:

My point was how can this rifle be nearly 3 times the cost of an Echols gun and not be overpriced? I was not commenting on an individuals ability to afford the price. I was simply stating the price was not justifiable IMHO.

LJS, I agree with you, I'd really like to see the worksheet for one. The hourly rate must be staggering.
Having said that, if you want a set to QD mounts for your Holland and Holland bespoke magazine rifle, they'll set you back a bit over US5000!!

Boss,

Sorry for the delay in responding but I was at the range. I am puzzled. I wrote that neither David Miller nor D'Arcy Echols made target rifles.

You responded that you had a safe full and posted some photos of an apparently very nice rifle, but it wasn't made by either Echols or Miller. Enlighten me please.

TT

I don't want an arguement but I think the red pad looks like S@*T. What's a red pad doing on a Gra Gun anyway? Should be a Grey pad or maybe black. Oh and I don't like brakes either.

quote:

Originally posted by Tsquare2:
Boss,

Sorry for the delay in responding but I was at the range. I am puzzled. I wrote that neither David Miller nor D'Arcy Echols made target rifles.

You responded that you had a safe full and posted some photos of an apparently very nice rifle, but it wasn't made by either Echols or Miller. Enlighten me please.

TT

Your Comment--"I don't know who Speedy is, but I'd guess that I've not seen one of his rifles in the hunting fields."

Pics are Speedy built rifles. He is known for BR stuff but builds hunting rifles to the same standard if you request those types of tolerances. Some folks like BR actions on sporters some like Remington. Speedy does not work on any factory actions besides Remington or the BR types.

OK. Got it.

TT

Perhaps one of the ultimate tests for a hunting rifle is the Hickory Egg Shoot held each year in Hickory, NC. 3 shots @ 100 yds, 3 shots @ 300 yds and then 3 shots @ 500 yds, shooter on the ground WITH NO SIGHTERS!

Miller rifles have been notable by their absence. Jim Borden is one maker who has won this competition, he's on a par with Speedy.

This is true verifiable long-range performance in a hunting-type competition. No BS, just Run Whatcha Brung with no excuses and NO SIGHTERS!

Like I say, Miller rifles are notable by their absence. Of course that may be due to their owners......
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Perhaps one of the ultimate tests for a hunting rifle is the Hickory Egg Shoot held each year in Hickory, NC. 3 shots @ 100 yds, 3 shots @ 300 yds and then 3 shots @ 500 yds, shooter on the ground WITH NO SIGHTERS!

Miller rifles have been notable by their absence. Jim Borden is one maker who has won this competition, he's on a par with Speedy.

This is true verifiable long-range performance in a hunting-type competition. No BS, just Run Whatcha Brung with no excuses and NO SIGHTERS!

Like I say, Miller rifles are notable by their absence. Of course that may be due to their owners......
Regards, Joe

Good point---the egg shoots seperate the men from the boys!!

Really, I have never considered an egg to be a big game quarry, seems that my life has been lacking in some respects, eh.

I would suggest that a big game rifle is one which will, does and has worked flawlessly in the wilderness hunting of BC, Alaska and the Canadian northern territories for some years. While hitting an egg at an extended range is most impressive, the functional reliability and adequate accuracr of a sound BIG GAME rifle is a hell of a lot more important in actual hunting.

My purpose-built working rifle for the work I used to do in solo wilderness occupations is a short .375H&H on an old Mod. 70 with a sts. Classic barrel, Recknagel irons, QD compact Leupy and Micky stcok. It consistently shoots MOA at 100M with my load of a 300 NP over H-4350 at 2400 chrono'd....that is what I consider a BIG GAME rifle, not some eggbuster with tolerances so tight that it will freeze up on wet cold or wind-driven dust.

I do not think that a "perfect" rifle exists as the parameters of use are too vague and the term too subjective in application.

quote:

My purpose-built working rifle for the work I used to do in solo wilderness occupations is a short .375H&H on an old Mod. 70 with a sts. Classic barrel, Recknagel irons, QD compact Leupy and Micky stcok. It consistently shoots MOA at 100M with my load of a 300 NP over H-4350 at 2400 chrono'd....that is what I consider a BIG GAME rifle, not some eggbuster with tolerances so tight that it will freeze up on wet cold or wind-driven dust

Hi Dewey,
Your post above begs the question, why spend over $1500.00 to $2500.00 for perfectly functional and attractive rifle... That's assuming that you had the whole rifle coated to the same color..(yank eh?)
As far the Miller rifle goes, I have no class as it looks like a pig with lipstick on to me..

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
Really, I have never considered an egg to be a big game quarry, seems that my life has been lacking in some respects, eh.

I would suggest that a big game rifle is one which will, does and has worked flawlessly in the wilderness hunting of BC, Alaska and the Canadian northern territories for some years. While hitting an egg at an extended range is most impressive, the functional reliability and adequate accuracr of a sound BIG GAME rifle is a hell of a lot more important in actual hunting.

My purpose-built working rifle for the work I used to do in solo wilderness occupations is a short .375H&H on an old Mod. 70 with a sts. Classic barrel, Recknagel irons, QD compact Leupy and Micky stcok. It consistently shoots MOA at 100M with my load of a 300 NP over H-4350 at 2400 chrono'd....that is what I consider a BIG GAME rifle, not some eggbuster with tolerances so tight that it will freeze up on wet cold or wind-driven dust.

I do not think that a "perfect" rifle exists as the parameters of use are too vague and the term too subjective in application.

You make valid points. The eggs are not animals but they do represent a challenge to the shooters ability to read condition all things being equal. Even with the most accurate BR rifle the ability to read condition is required.

Rifles that do not function in the field that were designed for the field are useless.

LJS, I am with you 100%.

Plus, IMO, the scope mounts are clunky and the rifle is ugly (especially the color scheme! ).

I would venture to say that it's one of the uglier sisters of all synthetic stocked Model 70s that I have ever seen.

That said, I stopped being astonished at high end spending habits a long time ago!!!

For wilderness hunting in the North, for big bears for instance, I admit that one doesn't need egg-busting ability. My own choice for that work is a rifle with 5000 fpe per shot, one up and 5 or even 6 down, and the capability of a 'hot' reload in a standoff emergency. It won't come close to hitting the egg except at ranges under 200 yds but it'll kill anything on any continent with one shot at any range under 200 yds.

But that's not where Miller aims his rifles, they're obviously targeted for shooting at somewhat longer ranges (VBG). Therefore I think that a 100, 300 and 500-yd competition would be quite appropriate for his products, considering their intended usage and supposed level of accuracy and precision.

Actually, when I stop to think about it, one of the 'scout' competitions would be even more appropriate for a Miller rifle. Just think of it, varying types of targets at varying unknown ranges under a time constraint while moving in the field! What could be closer to real hunting?

I'll admit that an egg at 500 yds is perhaps too small a target for a 'real hunting rifle', but the main event of the competition isn't the egg side match, it's the 'choice target', where the shooter has a choice of 2 different-sized bullseyes; naturally the smaller target scores higher, and it's up to the shooter to determine if he and his rifle are good enough to attempt the smaller bull.

According to all the hype, one would think that a Miller rifle would have no difficulty in 'cleaning' the 9-shot course of fire at Hickory. And/or any other such competition for that matter. IIRC, that's what the extra 20K is supposed to be for, to ensure superior performance to the Nth degree, right?

So how come the winners aren't using Millers?

And yes, I hafta agree with the others who said the rifle was ugly and childish-looking, but that's a matter of taste. Like I said, if I had $32K to spend on a rifle, AT LEAST it would be something I'd like to sit and admire while waiting on the stand or back in camp. Like killer wood and tasteful engraving and all sorts of major and minor embellishments, none of which are present on the Miller rifle.

Safe queen? I hunt all my rifles, used to hunt 'em HARD but not so hard any more in recent years. They have plenty of scratches, just like my 4x4 pickup, and they still perform perfectly in all weather conditions.

You CAN have superior performance AND spectacular looks in the same rifle, it's not difficult for a good workman. AND, IMO at least, you can have them for a LOT LESS than $32K.

Just depends upon how much the Miller name is worth to you. Apparently it's worth $20K to some.
Regards, Joe

I don't think spending 30k on a rifle is nuts, I do think spending 30k on that rifle is beyond nuts.

I'll be the odd man out. I rather like the looks of the Miller rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
LJS, I am with you 100%.

Plus, IMO, the scope mounts are clunky and the rifle is ugly (especially the color scheme! ).

I would venture to say that it's one of the uglier sisters of all synthetic stocked Model 70s that I have ever seen.

That said, I stopped being astonished at high end spending habits a long time ago!!!

Agree!

Certainly much of the pricing or "value" is tied to the makers name. In my view, there are better options to spend $30K+ on rifle(s).

quote:

So how come the winners aren't using Millers?

Probably because they can't afford them, or because they can get an adequate rifle for less money.

But that does not mean that those who choose to spend their money on a Miller rifle are "stupid" or "nuts".