Any word on the cost and availability of these barrels yet?

The banded swivel was bothersome to me, but actually being intragal and having the option to change it is first rate and well thought out. Nice work indeed..

Such a barrel is priced that if you have to ask!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The banded swivel was bothersome to me, but actually being intragal and having the option to change it is first rate and well thought out. Nice work indeed..

Such a barrel is priced that if you have to ask!

Hi Ray, The barrel was built this way with option to turn it into an island swivel or leave it as is. Right now I'm waiting patiently in line for my turn. I'm thinking an island for this contour is the way to go but will need to have a conversation with James before I make a final decision. At this point nothing has happened yet. I was in the middle of a house remodel when James asked me to send it and was about a month late getting it out. When it's time I'll get James to shoot some pics and will post it's progress.

Terry

Any progress photos to share ???

Re: the machine now bore/ream/rifle afterwards has there been any progress on that ???

Most of the people I know that have real money, ALWAYS ask what the price of anything is, they did not get and keep that money by jumping off into commitments without doing their due diligence! Whoever came up with that saying must have been a shyster salesman trying to push a sale to someone whose ego was bigger than his brain!

I'm familiar with the quality of John's work so I would be very interested in a .375 caliber barrel with 1/4 rib that would finish out at 24" long with a .700" muzzle diameter.

The going price for a similar barrel WAS in the $1,500-1,800 range, in the white.
Walther makes them through custom order.
Kreiger also offered them, especially through Granite Mountain Arms a few years ago. I am not sure if they still do.

Hopefully the info. will help in establishing a base price. It's a small nitch market, but there is a market if the price and quality are there.

with CNC machining, the process is becoming more consistent, where in the past, only the extremely few gifted metal smiths were able to produce them. Such as the late Fred Wells in AZ. They were in the $5,500 range, granted with engraving.

From past memory, I recall, The full outside contour has to be machined before the interior bore. So no stretching or altering of interior dimensions resulting in accuracy issues, especially in consistency in production. Not many have the equipment, money or skill to do it .
Another issue is the client contour wish list. It is much more expensive to produce varied contours per individual order specs.
It is much easier to follow an established contour standard with the barrel furniture. Such as the Walther pre War Mauser 5130 contour.

I wish success to all who endeavor in providing such service to us gun loonies. It makes our life richer, but definitely not in the pocket.

Lee 440,
Hey I hate to roll over on a fellow inmate, but I got that saying from Butch L., who chastised me for asking a price on Bottom metal..I was just trying to please, butch-a can't keep everyone happy!!

I have not used one in quite awhile, but Lothar Walthar used to make a full rib, swivel an sight ramps, full oct. or half Oct. for $1600. Have not priced them recently however, but Im sure $1500 to $2000 would be ballpark today..depending on what one wants.

Deleted...double post

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
If done properly there should not be an issue with the bore expanding due to material removal. Will the bore grow, absolutely. Can you measure it? Probably not.

I machined a Shilen (button rifled) 7mm barrel blank, 1.250" diameter the full length, down to a teeny tiny profile, just to test this idea. Is it a conclusive, laboratory test, with all variables removed, no, absolutely not. But I gauged the bore prior, and I gauged the bore after, and while I can only measure .0001" with my gauges, there was no change in bore diameter.

Wouldn’t it be simpler to forego all that and use a cut rifled barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
If done properly there should not be an issue with the bore expanding due to material removal. Will the bore grow, absolutely. Can you measure it? Probably not.

I machined a Shilen (button rifled) 7mm barrel blank, 1.250" diameter the full length, down to a teeny tiny profile, just to test this idea. Is it a conclusive, laboratory test, with all variables removed, no, absolutely not. But I gauged the bore prior, and I gauged the bore after, and while I can only measure .0001" with my gauges, there was no change in bore diameter.

Wouldn’t it be simpler to forego all that and use a cut rifled barrel?

I'm lost, forego what?

Dimensional change due to residual stress that is inherent in a button rifled barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
Dimensional change due to residual stress that is inherent in a button rifled barrel.

Sorry, I didn't know that your were a metallurgist.
So Fal Grunt didn't measure his properly?

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
Dimensional change due to residual stress that is inherent in a button rifled barrel.

Sorry, I didn't know that your were a metallurgist.
So Fal Grunt didn't measure his properly?

There has been a good bit of discussion on this topic over on snipershide, with various barrel makers chiming in.

The gist has been that you can expect a button rifled barrel to have dimensional variation under the circumstances above. They discuss it in the context of fluting as well. I defer to the judgement of people who make them for a living.

A big part of accuracy is eliminating possible variables. If you can eliminate the potential of dimensional shift by using a cut rifled barrel...it would seem logical to do so. The cost of a blank, whether button or cut, is not going to be all that different.

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
I defer to the judgement of people who make them for a living.

Maybe we should leave it at that?

A big part of accuracy is eliminating variables. When you start bench rest shooting an octagon barrel with integral features at 1000yds, please let me know.

One question for you though, where are you buying cut rifled barrels for the same price as button rifled barrels? Last Shilen I ordered was $150, last Kreiger I ordered was $580? Seems like a bit of a price difference to me, but maybe to you that is not all that different.

quote:

There has been a good bit of discussion on this topic over on snipershide

That says it all!

I used to make all my integral barrels with Douglas blanks..never an issue. Tried a Shilen once..moved so badly, you could almost not see through from one end to the other.

I have a hunch it is the heat treatment Douglas uses.

Duane, the barrel makers get their steel already heat treated. Most stress relieve them after rifling.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
I defer to the judgement of people who make them for a living.

Maybe we should leave it at that?

A big part of accuracy is eliminating variables. When you start bench rest shooting an octagon barrel with integral features at 1000yds, please let me know.

One question for you though, where are you buying cut rifled barrels for the same price as button rifled barrels? Last Shilen I ordered was $150, last Kreiger I ordered was $580? Seems like a bit of a price difference to me, but maybe to you that is not all that different.

Is that really a cost difference on a 10K custom rifle...the type of rifle that would have this barrel?

That's like putting discount tires on a sports car...

Why go cheap on a performance part? When the actual folks that make barrels for a living say that you can't flute button barrels after a certain step in the process, but you can flute a cut rifled barrel...or that you can't machine it due to the fact that they bore will change dimension due to release of residual stress...I kinda think they would know.

I'm not saying button rifled barrels are all bad. My issued MK 18 had a button rifled barrel from colt and it always performed. MK 13s run button rifled barrels from Lilja and they stacked dudes like it was cool. I have a Broughton tube on my personal 700 and it is spectacular with MK 316 and M118...no flies on button rifled barrels in the accuracy department.

That doesn't mean that they are ideal for every application...

Additionally, many machinists will have their own process that addresses whatever variables...so it may not even matter as there could be a technique or similar that compensates for whatever variable could come up.

Either way...as I get older, I tend to just call Bartlein or Kreiger when I need a barrel. My preferred rifle for social use has a Bartlein gain twist 5R tight bore 30 cal barrel and it is stupidly easy to work with. No fouling issues, not ammo sensitive at all, sub 1/2 MOA when I do my part for 5 rounds measured via AMR.

On the flip side...I have an older 700 with an Obermeyer cut rifled barrel that is a bit picky...built it as I had some extra parts and a McM stock...and it's great, but picky. So it can vary.

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:

Is that really a cost difference on a 10K custom rifle...the type of rifle that would have this barrel?

On a $4000 octagon barrel, $580 is a portion of it. On a $750 octagon barrel, $150 is a portion of it. Yes it is a cost difference. Maybe not to you, but to every customer I have had to date, money still matters.

Most custom rifles that have octagon barrels with integral features are hunting rifles. 95% of the rifles that pass through my shop are Mausers. I think you are missing that key component. I have a good friend who builds rifles that compete at two miles. His guy who shoots competitively for him shoots 5" 20 round groups at 1000 yds. No one is doing that with a integral feature octagon barrel built on a Mauser action. When somebody wants a rifle to shoot prairie dogs at 1500 yds, I send them to him.

As I stated, I cut a button rifled barrel to the absolute smallest dimensions I thought safe. I regularly work in tenths with the tool & die work I do, with the gauges I have in my shop, there was no change from before and after machining.

Now, can you show me the effect of .0001 change in the bore of a barrel?

Agreed, that application...there is likely no perceptible performance gain.

We don't disagree...it's just a question of perspective.

You are seeing it from a hunting rifle perspective where minute of animal chest is fine. I'm stuck in prior life mode where I cursed my MK 11 if it wasn't 3/4 MOA as I had to sort through a pile of them to find one that would do it.

You aren't wrong and I'm not disagreeing with you...it's just a perspective variance.

Spending years chasing bullet holes on paper and arguing over fractions of an inch...tends to leave me a bit obsessive about paper accuracy that is likely not 100% relevant for all applications.

I defer to your expertise on this project.

lockingblock, I've heard this for years from people that needed an excuse.

when I do my part

I always wondered why they didn't "do their part".
Kinda like the term "a called flier".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by butchlambert:
Duane, the barrel makers get their steel already heat treated. Most stress relieve them after rifling.[/QUO

Butch..Just for my education. Would stress relieving such as Doulas does not be "heat treatment"?

Duane, Not as I have known it. I don't believe the stress relieve temp affects the RC hardness. I do have a Rockwell Hardness Tester and my machine show no difference in RC hardness hardness.

Surprises me since as I undersand it, stress relief takes place between 550 and 650 f. Called Douglas and they take them to 1200!!

I'd find it hard to believe that hardness is not affected at any of these temps. Maybe some of the educated folks could weigh in

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Surprises me since as I undersand it, stress relief takes place between 550 and 650 f. Called Douglas and they take them to 1200!!

I'd find it hard to believe that hardness is not affected at any of these temps. Maybe some of the educated folks could weigh in

Yup, maybe they will.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned shot peen as a stress relief method, we used it a lot in the aerospace industry to stabilize mat'l sensitive to shape due to mat'l removal.How about cryogenics?


m4220

Cryo does not stress relief. Shot Peening and shaking of parts have been tried in the past.

Lockingblock , are you in fact a metallurgist ?I am as my forum name suggests. Maybe we can understand each other , LOL.
AFAIK stress relief starts at about 700F. However a common stress relief [sub-critical anneal ] is 2 hours at 1200F . That's even better . I've been trying to explain that to knife makers for some time Good stress relief without problems of oxidation , decarb etc. Use it before and after machining.
" Cryo does not relieve stress" I have questions about that from a long search about cryo. That went on for years ,trying to find what it does exactly. Many talked about it, used it ,sold it and even ASM has a committee about it ---without apparently knowing what it is !!!
Now I know at -300F the matrix is tweaked which may relieve some stress. Anyone with technical info on cryo vs stress relief please speak up.

AND I did graduate from CST but prohibited me from attending CST metallurgy classes ! I already knew everything !

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Lockingblock , are you in fact a metallurgist ?I am as my forum name suggests. Maybe we can understand each other , LOL.
AFAIK stress relief starts at about 700F. However a common stress relief [sub-critical anneal ] is 2 hours at 1200F . That's even better . I've been trying to explain that to knife makers for some time Good stress relief without problems of oxidation , decarb etc. Use it before and after machining.
" Cryo does not relieve stress" I have questions about that from a long search about cryo. That went on for years ,trying to find what it does exactly. Many talked about it, used it ,sold it and even ASM has a committee about it ---without apparently knowing what it is !!!
Now I know at -300F the matrix is tweaked which may relieve some stress. Anyone with technical info on cryo vs stress relief please speak up.

AND I did graduate from CST but prohibited me from attending CST metallurgy classes ! I already knew everything !

Thanks for chiming in. It’s great that the forum has so many folks with that level of knowledge.

What is the correct term for the dimensional shift that can occur when machining a button rifled barrel?

Bottom line is that there is some form of post rifling stress...and when you machine it, the bore diameter can change. I’m not specifically talking about this sample of 1...I’m going off what several prominent barrel manufacturers said regarding fluting button barrels on the hide. They make barrels that are going on competition guns...it matters when something changes.

Then again...there are a variety of views from some barrel makers as well.

It’s curious how so many knowledgeable folks can somewhat disagree.

Several years ago Ed Shilen sent out 20 barrels blanks to a true helium cryo treatment facility. He told them to cryo half of them. A metallurgy firm did the diagnosis on both the treated and untreated barrels. They found that the austenite in the metal was transformed into martensite. The metal was brittle until a true stress relief or tempering was done. The facility used Helium and not nitrogen to cryo the metal. Boiling point of nitrogen is -196C and Helium is -269C.
All of the barrel blanks were drilled, reamed, lapped, and then rifled. Being a blind test I chambered 4 barrels. I think 5 of the barrels were sent back for an additional cryo after rifling and before chambering. I will add that all of them were tempered?-stress relieved after they returned from the cryo shop. That included the ones that were not cryoed. I chambered 4 more and 2 of ea. were cryoed and 2 just normal without cryo. I was able to tell the difference in how the machined. The cryo barrels machined easier. All were Rockwell tested and they were 27C.
Long story in the short version, they all shot the same and had the same life. Oh, they were all 6ppc BR barrels.
http://ctpcryogenics.com/
This is the company that does it right. Deep cryo and brought back up in a controlled manner and heated them some.
-300F deg is not true cryo and just getting the metal cold is not the whole of the process.
Mete, the Colorado School of Mines have done a lot of cryo research.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
lockingblock, I've heard this for years from people that needed an excuse.

when I do my part

I always wondered why they didn't "do their part".
Kinda like the term "a called flier".

I discovered, over time, that I had to skip coffee if I intended to shoot precision rifle as I could observe a perceptible shake in the reticle. I like coffee. Some guys get a prescription for a beta blocker but I never went that far.

I’m not a world class shooter, but I’m blessed with some world class rifles that are truly 3/8 MOA guns. I was never capable of that accuracy on demand. I could swing it on a good day...but not every day. When I get back to the US, maybe... I’m tempted to jump into the PRS series in a big way. Need a 6 Creed though...

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Lockingblock , are you in fact a metallurgist ?I am as my forum name suggests. Maybe we can understand each other , LOL.
AFAIK stress relief starts at about 700F. However a common stress relief [sub-critical anneal ] is 2 hours at 1200F . That's even better . I've been trying to explain that to knife makers for some time Good stress relief without problems of oxidation , decarb etc. Use it before and after machining.
" Cryo does not relieve stress" I have questions about that from a long search about cryo. That went on for years ,trying to find what it does exactly. Many talked about it, used it ,sold it and even ASM has a committee about it ---without apparently knowing what it is !!!
Now I know at -300F the matrix is tweaked which may relieve some stress. Anyone with technical info on cryo vs stress relief please speak up.

AND I did graduate from CST but prohibited me from attending CST metallurgy classes ! I already knew everything !

What is the correct term for the dimensional shift that can occur when machining a button rifled barrel?

Bottom line is that there is some form of post rifling stress...and when you machine it, the bore diameter can change. I’m not specifically talking about this sample of 1...I’m going off what several prominent barrel manufacturers said regarding fluting button barrels on the hide. They make barrels that are going on competition guns...it matters when something changes.

Having been in BR shooting for several years I remember in Phoenix several years ago when Skip Otto shot a .099 5 shot group at 200 yards. For those that knew Skip you knew he made his BR spending money fluting barrels. His big old horizontal would do 4 or 5 barrels at a time. He set the record with a fluted button rifled barrel. In the last couple years that record was broken but not but by a few thousandths.
Now that is a World Record. I know Shilen sold their big mill that they used to flute barrels and do not warranty fluted barrels.

Most of us are guilty of using the word stress when we mean strain. The strain , when relieved as in machining can permit the part to change dimensions . When we deform martensite or heat it to temper it can change dimension. we can also form austenite at temperatures above the Ms when deformed [Md temp ] .When we cool to cryo no eta carbides are formed , but when tempered carbides do form. The time needed to tweak the steel varies with the type of steel !!
Now that you're all asleep ,you can all dream about all the changes that can change dimensions !!

TC1,

Has your barrel been fitted to the action yet ??

Progress photos please.

No, not yet. When I sent it to James he let me know up front He was booked up and I would need to be patient. I should call him this week and get an update though.

shameless BTT

It's getting too deep for me..I got lost a couple of pages back..

I just want to know how much these barrels are going to set me back,and what the turn around time will be more or less...I also understand you cannot pin point a gunsmith with questions. They don't understand that..

BTT

I'm here for the "niftiness" of the technology involved in doing these barrels and the can do attitude of gasgunner............not the pissing competition.