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I would like to know as I'm sure several here can inform me, so when dealing with a custom firearm maker for a rifle made to customer specs, that will take a few months to complete, is it usual to agree a payments structure of some kind ? I am thinking that certain completion stages might become due dates for payment instalments but have absolutely no prior experience. Please post your expert advice on this. Thankyou. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | ||
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I have had several custom rifles built. Most required no deposit. On one I offered a deposit. It turned onto a nightmare. Took years to get the work completed. A small deposit with progress payments as work is completed is not unreasonable. But that first progress payment should have the deposit deducted from it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I've seen many different payment structures out there. We do 50% down and the remainder on delivery. I can't imagine not requiring any deposit as 30%-40% of the overall rifle cost is materials. I suppose it would be different if the customer is providing them. | |||
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For a full build I have always had to place a deposit in the 50% range. As the construction progresses, often another payment is requested. I have no problem with that as I know these guys are pulling in expensive actions, stock blanks and so forth. | |||
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In my scenario I paid for and supplied the action, stock, bbl, and all other components. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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"I paid for and supplied the action, stock, bbl, and all other components." I would think that there are probably some gunmakers out there who would not want to use this type of scenario. They may wish to act as a "retailer" of the parts as well, taking advantage of special wholesale relationships they have with other gunmakers and suppliers. | |||
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There probably are. However, there are just as many who wish not to be in the procurement business. My sense is they would rather spend the time doing gunsmithing than acquiring parts. Additionally, it has been my experience across over a 1/2 dozen gunsmiths they are horribly inefficient at this. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard from different gunsmiths "Oh sorry, I haven't order the part yet, I know said I would do it two weeks ago but haven't gotten around to it." Which makes me want to scream "Really, it takes all of 10 minutes given we spent an hour on the phone together agreeing on components". Additionally, Kevin your logic runs contrary to the majority of business practices currently in place a) people in the labor services business generally find that the margin on the parts they provide is minimal b) given the advent of the internet and most gunmakers are not ordering large quantities of an item on a single their "wholesale" price is often only minimally lower that the internet "retail" price. Just take a look at what has happened to Brownells "gunsmith/dealer" price. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have used a few custom smiths. I usually send a deposit and funds as the work progress s. I furnish some of the metal and always use my wood. These guys are great to work with. | |||
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I'm not too particular whether client furnishes parts or not. Normally, I like to be in charge of getting the barrel and in a bolt gun, the safety shroud. Not that there's riches to be made, but some aftermarket shrouds..I refuse to use and client almost always gets a barrel that's too heavy. A deposit reflects the cost of components I furnish and in some complicated builds, a labor deposit will be needed. I do think a maker is wise to keep deposit at a minimum...ya know..in case he gets careless in the crosswalks..saves his bride headaches! | |||
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None of the guys I used have required it; in fact, the guy building my latest long range rig is done with it and building the ideal load for it (I love that!). I saw him shoot it last week and keep bugging him that I need to pay for all this stuff but he just says, "I will have to run up the bill." The bad news is I have no idea what it will cost; we never discussed it. But I trust he won't rip me off as much as he trusts I won't stiff him. | |||
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I'm for free enterprise. Its what the gunsmith says it is and one can haggle or politely go somewhere else. Good gunsmiths are in demand...bless all good tradesmen. | |||
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This is a great point. Before we started the business I heard a few stories of the headaches widows of gunmakers have had to go through, especially with the ATF. So even though my wife and I were in our 20s when we started out (and hopefully less likely to kick the bucket any time soon), we put her on the FFL and she does all the books for the business. It will be much easier for her to return customer's money and guns if I meet an early demise.
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I always figured the deposit should cover any out of pocket expense of the gunsmith, such as any and all parts. I don't expect the gunsmith to partially fund the project...he's getting paid for his labor and if he supplies the parts, he'll make a few $ on that too with discounts. His choice whether he passes any of those savings to the customer (retail vs. wholesale). Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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Thankyou guys. All good answers here. Appreciated. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Given my age, I assume I'll kack before the gunsmith and I don't want anyone left with parts unpaid. When it comes to barrels, I specify what I want the rifle to do and let the gunsmith pick the barrel. I don't think that anyone will gain by shortchanging on that item and I know the smith knows the barrel vendor and the product better than I. I learned long ago to deal with known, established smiths. | |||
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