I know I'm on the high side of 74 years of age. But what is the reason for needing silencers on big game rifles? I understand muzzle brakes, although some guides won't permit them in camp due to the extra noise. But why silencers?

Silencer is a misnomer as the Peak noise decibel level of the fired cartridge is not eliminated; the peak noise decibel level is simply reduced therefore much kinder to the shooters hearing...

quote:

But what is the reason for needing silencers on big game rifles

Huh what did you say.

If you are like most older shooters you suffer from shooting related hearing loss.

My question to you would be why not.

Good point. Combined with working around turbines most of my life, I'm lucky to hear at all.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

But what is the reason for needing silencers on big game rifles

Huh what did you say.

If you are like most older shooters you suffer from shooting related hearing loss.

My question to you would be why not.

Yes,, why not? I shouldn't have to demonstrate a "NEED" for something that might help save my hearing and harms no one else.

I've got one on a .22LR that I really like. I've a centerfire suppressor that sits in the safe and never gets used. I personally don't like the way it changes the balance of the rifle nor do I think it changes the noise level enough with full power loads to justify using it.

Many if not most hunting rifles in the UK are now fitted with moderators. A lot was brought about by quoting health & safety legislation whereby it is illegal to be subjected to certain noise levels at work and hence many estates started using them on rifles being used by employees or in the vicinity of employees. A lot was a combination of good marketing and fashion.

The argument that they cut noise pollution is spurious. Somebody out pigeon shooting, or a bird scared causes far more noise than the odd shot from a centrefire rifle. A centrefire rifle with a moderator is by no means quiet. You still need hearing protection. Personally I like a longer barrel without the encumerance of a moderator.

First, the fABLED GUIDE that won't let you book if you shoot a muzzle brake are far and few between and mostly BS artist, a guide can't afford to turn down clients and if he does he is young and stupid and won't be an old guide, probably end up selling shoes at sears...The good Lord gave him fingers to stick in his ears and since enough to know where to stand. GM offered him plugs on a string. Not to mention that most folks shoot better with a braked rifle and that's real handy on DG not to mention not having to deal with those long tracking jobs..duh!

I have never used a silenced rifle, it wasn't allowed in my day and I paid the price, the upside is I don't need ear plugs today, im all but deaf..Not to mention Bursites from shooting big bores and a few other minor hunting scars of sorts! but if I had it to do over, I would in a heart beat..

there are two noises caused by firing a high velocity rifle: the bang caused by the rapid expansion of gases out the end of the barrel with the resultant smack back of air closing back in on the vacuum, and the sonic boom caused by the bullet breaking the sound barrier. The silencer, aka suppressor, moderator only acts to absorb some of the first sound and would be apparent mostly to those in the immediate vicinity of the muzzle. The sonic boom can be heard for miles on a clear day particularly if the bullet travels several hundred yards.

Suppressors are a godsend for guys who shoot a lot.

They just make it more pleasant. I used to go home mentally smoked from a training day...as if I was walking in a fog. I would notice that basic things like driving were harder. I would miss turns and forget basic things like stopping for gas...I actually ran out of gas once driving home after a day of shooting 50s.

Later in life, I understood concussive effects of explosives and it all started to make sense.

Your body is mostly water. Water is incompressible. It transmits noise and shock very well...as in those booms are being transmitted throughout your body. You are hearing, whether you ears hear or not...you hear via your skull. As an example, many military radios use bone microphones which don't go to the ear at all. They work very well.

When you shoot a rifle with a loud report...one that is burning a lot of powder or even a small rifle with a muzzle brake, you are giving yourself that minor concussion type effect.

If you ever have a chance, sit next to a guy shooting a Barret 50 and sit about a foot in front of his shoulder, two feet to the left. You won't do it twice. The blast from that muzzle brake will make you dizzy. That's your brain getting smacked. Ear pro doesn't stop that...

The only thing that stops that is a can. While the sonic crack is loud, it happens further fwd of the muzzle and isn't causing you that concussive effect.

I love cans and I have several. They are a pain if you didn't plan the rifle around them...but when you set it up as a system, they work well. They are usually not plug and play.

YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:I love cans and I have several. They are a pain if you didn't plan the rifle around them...but when you set it up as a system, they work well. They are usually not plug and play.

What can you tell us about planning a rifle around the can? I'm about to take the plunge, and I'd love to hear your advice.

thanks,


Okie John

Biggest one- Threading.

The gunmakers on here can probably speak to this better than I can...but I can say that not all threads are equal.

You need the threading to be 3 things-

1. 100% concentric to the bore. NOT the outside of the barrel. It's not the same thing. This may require barrel removal...

2. Shoulder- How does the can seat? What does it index off of? Figure it out and make absolutely sure it is square/parallel etc. If using a mount, do this for the mount.

3. Barrel Diameter/Material- You can't correctly thread barrels that are lacking sufficient thickness. Maybe I should say...you can...but not well. Adapters suck. You add tolerances every time you add parts.

Beyond those three...minor issues...

Weight- Heavy cans are durable but weight can cause POI shift. You will have POI shift anyway. Know it, account for it, zero with it.

Quick Detach vs Thread- Thread is, in theory, more accurate. I haven't found that to be 100% true...but only if you have a mount that locks up consistently and rock solid. Slop is bad. Threaded cans will unscrew on their own...like its magic. I use QD cans with mounts.

Gimmick cans suck. Cans work by volume. Big is quiet. Small is loud. There is no way around that. Symmetrical baffles are accurate. Asymmetrical baffles cause accuracy issues.

Titanium cans are awesomely...expensive. They are generally not as durable, don't tolerate heat as well, and are less durable. They are light though...and offer less POI shift.

Cleaning is required. You can not ignore your barrel if you shoot suppressed. I'm not a scientist...but one can explain how they suck the water out of the air via compression/decompression. It's like a vapor trail. The net result is that they rust like crazy if you are in a humid environment. They will rust/carbon lock to your barrel like it's a sport. Clean it with carbon cutter, soak with CLP prior to assembly. Grease isn't all bad on mounts...depending.

Short, stiff barrels...good. Long, thin barrels...bad.

If at all possible, test fire to seat the can. You can get first round deviation when you remove and re-install a can.

Buy extra mounts. Cans without mounts are useless. Manufacturers love to discontinue mounts to force you to buy new cans...coughSUREFIREcough.

Rifle cans are still loud. Wear ear pro.

When you mount a can, always look down the bore and roll the rifle 360 degrees, holding your eye in the center of the bore. If you see the can while doing this...you have a problem. You want to see nothing but barrel. If you see the can...a bullet will see the can.

Anything with threads (mounts) will shoot loose. Use red locktite or better, Rockset. Once installed, assume it is there for the life of the barrel.

There are a lot of strong views on which brand is best. Guys get all emotional about their pet brand. Ignore it. If you want a rifle can, it is AAC or Surefire. Surefire cans are kinda loud but have very little POI shift. AAC cans are all over the map. They have uber quiet cans, loud cans, durable cans, not durable cans...some mounts that are loose but ok...some that are tight.

Personal choice...I have an AAC MK 13 can that is decent. I like it. It's worth the money for a bolt gun 30 cal can.

For pure durability...the M-4 2000 is the best 5.56 can ever invented. It's stupid quiet and durable...mount is a bit loose but it won't carbon lock.

KAC cans are great...bit heavy, hard to get, expensive, built like a tank. The older KAC 5.56 can is the most durable 5.56 can ever made. I've seen them on belt fed weapons that ran until the can turned white. No failures and still working.

It is all a tradeoff. The quieter it is...the better everything else needs to be. If louder is ok...other things can get sloppy...Surefire.

If you fall in love with Ops Inc cans or the new company making them...find a barrel guy like ADCO and accept that you are going to have to have barrels made to work with the cans. BTDT. There are better options...and they shoot loose. Tightening a hot can is a great way to melt your sling or your fingers.

Good luck. It's a great deal once you get it up and running.

quote:

Rifle cans are still loud.

And there is the rub. IMO, why bother.

They are very fashionable in NZ at the moment. People saw them being used in the UK where I understand people shoot on smaller properties with neighbours or they are required for H&S reasons.
Neither of these apply to hunting in NZ., but they are popular because it is something else to fiddle with on a rifle, and its a bit of cool gear.

You still need ear protection at the range, and despite what supressor owners say, deer do not suddenly become deaf once you screw one on.

I might have one if I had to shoot over a deer dog, or if I used a dedicated rifle from a high seat. Neither of which I ever do.
But a can on a deer stalking rifle is just something else to carry up a mountain.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Rifle cans are still loud.

And there is the rub. IMO, why bother.

Cans are relatively quiet at the ear of the shooter. They are loud downrange.

The sonic crack is mostly heard downrange.

Loud is relative to your position in relation to the rifle. Cans do make it much quieter...but it depends on where you are standing.

The goal is to get the sound pressure level below the threshold where hearing damage happens. With a supersonic round, that is very very difficult. However, as the SPL multiplies logarithmically, every DB you can eliminate is less hearing damage.

Not so. Where the rifle is discharged (muzzle) will always be it's loudest point.

If you are shooting full power loads I would advise to still wear hearing protection with a can and If you are still going to wear hearing protection why bother with a can at all. A good set of shooting muffs will protect your ears better than any can and you still need them with or without the suppressor. In the woods I'm only going to shoot once maybe twice at most and can go without either.

Cans do make it quieter, I would agree with that but not enough to stop wearing hearing protection and considering all the negatives to using one I will go without. I bought one years ago thinking all the same things. Today I never use it and consider it wasted money. Unless you are going subsonic with your loads, IMO it's a waste of time.

It makes little sense to argue you don't need a can, because you wear ear pro, and then state that you don't wear ear pro when you hunt.....

I have a handful of them and use them whenever I can. They are fantastic tools for teaching new shooters as they minimize noise, recoil and, most importantly, the over-pressure event known as muzzle blast.

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:
It makes little sense to argue you don't need a can, because you wear ear pro, and then state that you don't wear ear pro when you hunt.....

Maybe I could have been a little more clear. Like most here I wear hearing protection when I practice. I don't wear it when I hunt. It would be the same with or without a can. So what advantage does the can offer? Adding 8"-12" of length to your rife? Ruining the balance of your rifle? Adding a pound of weight and then putting it in the worst possible spot? All that and I still need hearing protection on practice days.

For me the slight benefit they provide with full power loads is out weighed by the IMO disadvantages caused by them. These are just my own personal opinions of suppressors drawn from personal experience. If you have one and like it that's cool. We just don't agree on this subject.

I think its a silly argument that reducing the damage done to your hearing when shooting without protective equipment, isn't worth it, because it makes your rifle a little longer, or slightly heavier.

I like mine not only for noise reduction but I experience a significant recoil reduction as well. I have an AAC SDN-762 and haven't regretted a moment of owning it.

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:
I think its a silly argument that reducing the damage done to your hearing when shooting without protective equipment, isn't worth it, because it makes your rifle a little longer, or slightly heavier.

Silly eh? Well I think it's silly to put a $800 hunk of metal on the end of your barrel when you can achieve the same results with a pair of .50 cent foam ear plugs. Common sense gets less common every day.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:
I think its a silly argument that reducing the damage done to your hearing when shooting without protective equipment, isn't worth it, because it makes your rifle a little longer, or slightly heavier.

Silly eh? Well I think it's silly to put a $800 hunk of metal on the end of your barrel when you can achieve the same results with a pair of .50 cent foam ear plugs. Common sense gets less common every day.

Luv you man!

We shoot a monthly 'precision' rifle match where you are prone, sitting, etc., quite close to the next shooter. Quite a few of the folks have started using 'cans'. Shooting next to one of these is a real pleasure compared to shooting next to the guy with a 20" barreled .308 with a brake. Those things really do rattle your whole body.
C.G.B.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:
I think its a silly argument that reducing the damage done to your hearing when shooting without protective equipment, isn't worth it, because it makes your rifle a little longer, or slightly heavier.

Silly eh? Well I think it's silly to put a $800 hunk of metal on the end of your barrel when you can achieve the same results with a pair of .50 cent foam ear plugs. Common sense gets less common every day.

Your body is made mostly of water. Water is not compressible. That water is transmitting the sound and pressure, regardless of your ear plugs. You aren't surrounding your entire body with foam as if you are in a red man suit.

Thus, you are still getting the blast...just via different means.

Suppressors are about total signature reduction IE sound and pressure...not just sound.

Cans are worth it if you shoot a lot. If you only go shooting a few times a year, likely not worth it.

The cost is nothing compared to a hunt, most high end rifles, or your health.

Short, stiff barrels with cans are a great setup.

YMMV.

Two weeks ago I got hearing aids, which without my good health insurance would have been over $9,000. I am 68 years old and don't remember ever hearing this well. I am lucky that I had enough hearing left that hearing aids got me back normal hearing. I don't want to lose whats left.

I've got a small titanium silencer on a Ruger 77/22 with a 16-inch barrel and it seems like any other .22 except that it's not nearly so loud. I had a couple of my longer barreled bolt actions threaded for silencers but they are not very handy guns with a silencer in place. I put more planning into my two other rifles which will always be used with silencer.

The first is a Thompson-Center TCR-87 (break-over single-shot). It has a heavy 18-1/2 inch barrel so with its 9-inch long silencer is about the same length a a bolt action with a 23-inch barrel. it is in .220 Swift and there is a lot of velocity loss because of the short barrel. However, it still shoots 40-gr Nosler Balistic Tips at 3,900 fps so it is close to being a legitimate 400-yard coyote rifle.

The second dedicated silencer rifle is again a TCR-87 with an 18-1/2 inch barrel but is in .17 Ackley Hornet. With it's 7-inch long silencer it is about the same length as a bolt action with a 21-inch barrel. It doesn't lose so much velocity compared to a longer barreled rifle so shoots 20-grain Hornaday bullets at 3,550 fps and is a good 200-yard gun for smaller varmints.

For load development at the range and future checking sights at the range I've used and will use ear protection when shooting them, which is absolutely needed as the other shooters there don't use silencers. However, for hunting where only an occaisional shot is taken I don't use ear protection. The .220 Swift seems to be about as loud an un-silenced .22 rimfire and the .17 Hornet make a crisp little crack but is much quieter. With it one can hear bullets stricking a squirrel or rabbit 100 yards away.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I bought one years ago thinking all the same things. Today I never use it and consider it wasted money. Unless you are going subsonic with your loads, IMO it's a waste of time.

I have volunteered to RO a few of the PRS steel competitions. When ROing 100+ people through a stage where 10 rounds are fired by each person through a short-barreled braked rifles I can attest that foam plugs and muffs are not sufficient to protect your hearing.

I am a fan of cans. Rifles can be built around the use of a can.

quote:

Originally posted by jpl:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I bought one years ago thinking all the same things. Today I never use it and consider it wasted money. Unless you are going subsonic with your loads, IMO it's a waste of time.

I have volunteered to RO a few of the PRS steel competitions. When ROing 100+ people through a stage where 10 rounds are fired by each person through a short-barreled braked rifles I can attest that foam plugs and muffs are not sufficient to protect your hearing.

I am a fan of cans. Rifles can be built around the use of a can.

Maybe you'll be able to talk those 100+ shooters into spending $800-$1000 apiece on cans and then send the BATF $200 apiece for the privilege of owning them so next time you RO you won't be so uncomfortable.

Or

YOU could buy some good personal hearing protection and you'll be just fine. If your muff's aren't quite enough then they are junk and need to be replaced. Telling everyone earmuffs are insufficient is an unbelievable stretch like so many other statements on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by cessna:
I know I'm on the high side of 74 years of age. But what is the reason for needing silencers on big game rifles? I understand muzzle brakes, although some guides won't permit them in camp due to the extra noise. But why silencers?

I shoot better with a suppressor. Recoil disappears and the noise is so low, no hearing protection is needed. I have the. On all of my rifles now.

[QUOTE]
I shoot better with a suppressor. Recoil disappears and the noise is so low, no hearing protection is needed. I have the. On all of my rifles now.

I may have a tendency to not shoot as well with a suppressor. Upon the first shot with my 7MM STW with suppressor in place I noticed how little recoil it produced. I then held the rifle loose like I would with a light recoiling rifle and got a larger than normal group. Then it occured to me that a loose hold was not proper for this gun and held it tight for the following groups and got better accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by jpl:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I bought one years ago thinking all the same things. Today I never use it and consider it wasted money. Unless you are going subsonic with your loads, IMO it's a waste of time.

I have volunteered to RO a few of the PRS steel competitions. When ROing 100+ people through a stage where 10 rounds are fired by each person through a short-barreled braked rifles I can attest that foam plugs and muffs are not sufficient to protect your hearing.

I am a fan of cans. Rifles can be built around the use of a can.

Maybe you'll be able to talk those 100+ shooters into spending $800-$1000 apiece on cans and then send the BATF $200 apiece for the privilege of owning them so next time you RO you won't be so uncomfortable.

Or

YOU could buy some good personal hearing protection and you'll be just fine. If your muff's aren't quite enough then they are junk and need to be replaced. Telling everyone earmuffs are insufficient is an unbelievable stretch like so many other statements on this thread.

A rifle with a brake is jarring to the sinuses. Trying to RO, you need to see trace and you have to get beside the shooter, low...maybe slightly behind depending on the light.

Comp guns with brakes are brutal, regardless of what ear pro you run.

quote:

Originally posted by IOWADON:
[QUOTE]
I shoot better with a suppressor. Recoil disappears and the noise is so low, no hearing protection is needed. I have the. On all of my rifles now.

I may have a tendency to not shoot as well with a suppressor. Upon the first shot with my 7MM STW with suppressor in place I noticed how little recoil it produced. I then held the rifle loose like I would with a light recoiling rifle and got a larger than normal group. Then it occured to me that a loose hold was not proper for this gun and held it tight for the following groups and got better accuracy.

If using a bipod, put a positive front load on it and the issue will go away. Frontal pressure solves a lot of accuracy issues.

Saving your hearing.

Less recoil

No flash - saves nightsight.

Game can't locate where shot came from. Can shoot two or three in a row.


Perfect example here ( begins at 3.50) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4cj1DFrGZc&t=296s

Watch some of his other videos to see how he trains etc etc..

TC1, re-read what I typed. I spoke of my experience ROing PRS-style matches with DOUBLE ear protection; plugs and muffs. My Howard-Leight muffs and plugs may be crap, but they were new crap at the time and after two days of ROing my ears were ringing.

Please read Cal Zant's thorough investigation of various brakes, and a couple industry-leading suppressors. His work is a pleasure to read:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/...e-brakes-sound-test/

I understand that when you shoot 5 rounds a year at game the cost and inconvenience for a suppressor might be hard to justify. I shoot a few thousand centerfire rifle rounds a year at things other than meat and socialize with others shooting too. 750+ centerfire rounds were fired at my informal local match last weekend. I am happy that a significant portion of those individuals had built their competition rifles around the use of a suppressor.

Parting shot: I feel real sorry for this guy:

quote:

Originally posted by jpl:
TC1, re-read what I typed. I spoke of my experience ROing PRS-style matches with DOUBLE ear protection; plugs and muffs. My Howard-Leight muffs and plugs may be crap, but they were new crap at the time and after two days of ROing my ears were ringing.

Please read Cal Zant's thorough investigation of various brakes, and a couple industry-leading suppressors. His work is a pleasure to read:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/...e-brakes-sound-test/

I understand that when you shoot 5 rounds a year at game the cost and inconvenience for a suppressor might be hard to justify. I shoot a few thousand centerfire rifle rounds a year at things other than meat and socialize with others shooting too. 750+ centerfire rounds were fired at my informal local match last weekend. I am happy that a significant portion of those individuals had built their competition rifles around the use of a suppressor.

Parting shot: I feel real sorry for this guy:

I have always used custom molded plugs and a top rated set of ear muffs. Don't need muzzle brakes or or sound suppressors. I do the same when hunting.

Luv'm or Hate'm...hardly any middle-ground.

I live in the boonies and my yard/acreage is usually well stocked with sageratz, ground squirrels chipmunks and the like.

I have two pellet guns one with a "suppressor" and one without. I can almost always get a second shot with the suppressed one but no such luck with the other one...it is LOUD...one shot and any that have been hunted and missed are gone for the day, so I like the suppressed one...and I've used a suppressed 22 cal rifle with 22 shorts to spotlight deer, both poaching for meat and legal culling and varmints...it worked very well as the sound of the shot seemed to come from many directions and confused the deer but didn't cause them to haulazz...I could harvest several before the exodus began. I kept the meat locker well stocked when beef was only available for special occasions.

And as already been mentioned and well covered...the sound is just reduced, the amount relative to the size of the bore and the amount of powder.


Suppressed hunting should be controlled and legal for those that want to use one...it should be a choice, all the various arguments that aren't really valid arguments aside...the movies have totally blown this into a barn pile of crap and the anti's have gone nutz while the average non-hunter is clueless...pretty much par for the course.

To me, a suppressor is just a useful tool just like the rifle, an ATV/truck, elk bugle, duck/varmint call or any other device used in hunting.

LUCK

Apparantly some don't know the difference between a silencer, a muzzle brake, and a suppressor, an a few other names tossed in..

Then we have one or two that talk of their knowledge at the bench and wearing hearing helmits, etc. etc. and that has nothing to do with hunting..

If I looked around and saw a client with a set of earphones on while hunting elephant, Buffalo, Lion or whatnot, I would send him in another direction than I....

I've used muzzle brakes off and on over the years, for one thing they are the best option to cure an ocassional developed flinch or to learn how to shoot a heavy recoiling rifle,in that if you use one on the range and plinkign then take off the brake and fire 3 or 4 shots without, in about 3 to 6 months you will have quit using the brake (it works)...Brakes are the berries for sight in sessions, and working up loads..and if a client can shoot a 458 Lott with them on, but flinches without them, I want him to damage my hearing as opposed to having a wounded buffalo do a tap dance on our body...

I have a .338 Ruger, I wanted one without a brake, but no more are to be had..So I bought it. The brake comes off and has a thread protector, I usually don't use it when I hunt, but I have cheap ear plugs on a string if I can remember to use them and I give the PH a set of them just because Im a nice guy..

Again the fantasy PH that won't take a client on with a muzzle brake, I wouldn't book for him, I couldn't afford to book for such a nut case costing my money..but Ive never seen a legitimate guide or PH that could afford to send a client someplace else to book over such nonsence. Lord knows they have a hard time making ends meet to start with..I know a few who ran their head, and lost a client, and that put a stop to sending their meal tickets South.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but one of the biggest values I see in a suppressor on a hunting rifle is how much better I can hear the bullet strike. There is no mistaking a hit or a miss and with sub sonic loads the effect is even more pronounced.

I've gotten to the point I enjoy hunting with subsonic loads quite a bit. It's given me the opportunity to have legal access to hunt places I otherwise would not have.

I run suppressors on .223, .243, .308, .44 mag, .22LR, and 12ga.

Back during dove season I had the opportunity to have a great little shoot with Federal's Subsonic 7.5's. My uncle who was +/- 200yrds away never heard me fire a shot and I know I picked up more than 15 empty casings. Subsonic slugs are a hoot and lethal at short range too. I'm not a huge fan of buckshot, but I'm starting to experiment with it at subsonic velocities and ranges of less than 20yrds.

I consider what I have invested in suppressors money well spent.

I shot a suppressed 222 in New Zealand, recoil and muzzle blast were equivalent to a 22 rimfire.