I have a couple of friends and one acquaintance who build stocks full time, and they seldom put more than 40 hours in a stock. I have built a few myself and probably average 50 hours or more, but it's a hobby for me. I fequently see quotes for custom stocks in the $1800 to 4K for a custom stock. At 40 hours, they are making between $45 and $100 per hour for their time. That's pretty good wages, even for a skilled worker. How many hours do professional stockmakers take, on average to make a custom stock?

1) There's a wide variance in number of hours a maker puts into a stock.

2) It's not just a matter of time.

Rhetorical questions:

1) How much time does it take to paint a painting?

2) How much is a painting worth?

Depends on the type of gun you are stocking and the quality of the work.

if they can charge $45 - 100, so be it. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

Same applies to Plumbers, Electricians, Builders.


BTW - Has anyone ever complained about what you charge for your work / services ?

.

I work about half as fast as a professional and it takes me about 80 hours to do my average stock BEFORE CHECKERING, and another 80 hours of checkering. These times are for relatively simple stocks and checkering patterns; stocks with things like hinged traps and fancier patterns take longer.

Expect your smith to charge at least $40/hr and that's dirt cheap, I figure $70-$80/hr is not unreasonable for a top-grade pro smith.

The most complicated stock I've ever done had fleurs and ribbons on the full-wrap-around pattern and 3 hinged trap doors; the stock took ~150 hrs and the checkering took another ~150 hrs. But don't forget that I'm only half as fast as a guy who smiths all day every day.
Regards, Joe

I have no idea, but your figure of ~45-$100 per hour doesn't sound bad, at least compared to other quality trades of auto mechanics and plumbers/ electricians. It's more than I want to pay, but cheaper than I could do it myself if I had any reasonable value of my time.

Also, that is not just a payment of their time, but their overhead of shop etc. Not too bad a deal I feel.

the stress is huge, if you are dealing with a$2000+ blank. Customers don't generally offer a "Mulligan" if you screw up the job. 80 hours in a stock, then eighty more to checker it, seventy-nine hours into that OOPS! Dang, there's some expensive firewood...

Rich
not me...

Penrod72,

I asked the mechanic who works on my Jaguar, he makes $32 an hour. The dealership charges the $100 per. Same with an electrician at church. The shop gets $85, he gets $30. The overhead is what kills you. Most stockists don't have a multi-million dollar shop and inventory, however.

quote:

Originally posted by penrod72:

Also, that is not just a payment of their time, but their overhead of shop etc. Not too bad a deal I feel.

The above quote is the most important issue that we need to keep in mind when figuring how rich our gunsmiths are getting. A large portion of that $4k goes towards retirement, medical insurance, etc. Add on the cost of outfitting and maintaining a shop(shop tools, licensing, insurance....) and $45 an hour is nothing.

By far the best value in a rifle stock is the one that comes on a $600 factory rifle. The truth is they do the job just fine.

But for those who want more there are custom stocks.

BTW, I have read that some stock makers can fully inlet and rough shape a blank in one work day.

Just a little math. $ 45.00 hour comes to $93,600.00 a year. Not bad but I'll bet a small business owner only gets to keep a little over half that after taxes, overhead, and miscellaneous expenses. $ 100.00 an hour is more like it considering the level of skill required to pull off a high grade custom of the quality we see here. A friend who rigs powerboats charges $95. for his shop rate. Like I said its not too much considering the desired outcome. DW

I'm almost finished with a stock I'm doing for my father-in-law.

Based on how many hours it took me (a lot) and calculating my annual income to an hourly level (I don't get paid by the hour), I'd say it was about 2-3 Cape Buffalo hunts. Not to mention time away from the wife and kids in the garage.

Anything seems reasonable to me based on this.

I'm going to let a pro do my next rifle stock.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
BTW, I have read that some stock makers can fully inlet and rough shape a blank in one work day.

The stockmaking instructor at Trinidad immediately before Ed Shulin took his place in
'65 was a fellow named Louie Mrace. I never met him but the fellows in Pete Grisel's class ahead of me said that Louie could start from a blank in the AM and have the first coat of finish on the wood by bedtime.

Maybe that's one reason why Ed replaced him and why Ed's name is a known one and Louie's is just another forgotten one?
Regards, Joe

I would assume that a pro-stock maker has a few more tools than us hobbyist. I'd also bet that, since they make stocks for a living, they've learned a few tricks and become faster with experience. Similar case in point, if you have ever seen the show "Dirty Jobs" on Discovery. Mike, the host, is usually capable of doing most jobs, but it almost always takes him longer to complete a task than someone who does that job every day for a living.

I've worked on a few stocks and have zero wood working experience. I looked at a lot of photos and read a lot about what to do (and learned some new jargon along the way). First stock was a failure, second stock took a year and a half to complete, and the third stock has a usable shape and inletting, but I've got a lot of sanding and shaping that still needs to be done before it will look like I want it took.

The biggest thing I took away from all of my troubles was stock making is tough - leave the work up to a professional.

Looking at an upcoming bill I am frightened and a bit surprised that at my current level I am spending that kind of money, however when I think about it I can understand it.

I have a buddy that has a personal business, taxes kill him. by the time you figure in taxes, insurance, overhead, the take home isn't that great. Hell, take a 100 per hour charge, 43 bucks just got taken by uncle sam. it just goes downhill from there.

There are guys that do it for less than others, they have other retirements, other incomes, less overhead, less demand etc. etc.

I, like others, thought I could do it myself. other than pad installation I just don't have time, so in part I'm paying for myself to be able to do other things instead.

Red

I asked a gunsmith about this once. He told me that before anyone was a professional stockmaker they were a hobbiest stockmaker. In the transition they developed a set of steps and procedures that became ingrained in their mind, that they do over and over and over again, each time, to the point where they don't worry about making a mistake anymore. And that is when they get fast, when they don't have to worry about making a mistake.

The other thing that most professional stockmakers have that most hobbiests do not is a milling machine.

My gunsmith says 120 hours including checkering. He does first quality work, and charges accordingly.

Normal, it takes 65-80 hours for me to make a rifle stock that I feel satisfied with.

Ante

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
The other thing that most professional stockmakers have that most hobbiests do not is a milling machine.

Here's an old school professional stockmakers work. I can only admire those of you with the talent. I can't fathom how long it would take to do this just hand tools.
The fit is as if were glass bedded.

Art

I think I'd have to call that old school hack, not stockmaker. I am, in no way, professional or even good for that matter, but I would not allow that on any rifle I did.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
I think I'd have to call that old school hack, not stockmaker. I am, in no way, professional or even good for that matter, but I would not allow that on any rifle I did.

What d'ya mean Larry? the 135 numbering dont look too bad!

Michael Petrov has shown many photos of some TRUE old-time masters' inletting and it is much much closer than the above in the action area. The above is closer than most semi-inlets but isn't truly master work. For other views of some truly masterful old-time stock work, please see the doublegunshop dot com site, down the page under classic rifles.

Not to detract from the above, it's obviously a cut (sorry, grin) above most semi-inlets and is probably about average quality for many prewar stockmakers. However some of Michael's photos will soon show the difference.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Michael Petrov has shown many photos of some TRUE old-time masters' inletting and it is much much closer than the above in the action area. The above is closer than most semi-inlets but isn't truly master work. For other views of some truly masterful old-time stock work, please see the doublegunshop dot com site, down the page under classic rifles.

Not to detract from the above, it's obviously a cut (sorry, grin) above most semi-inlets and is probably about average quality for many prewar stockmakers. However some of Michael's photos will soon show the difference.
Regards, Joe

Thanks for the comment Joe. If fact this particular rifle was one of three featured in Michael's article in PS December 2008.

What truly amazes me is not only did they not use power tools they made made their own chisels and tools.

Art

The other thing to do is look in the gunsmithing forum here and see what Les Brooks can do with his hand tools, some of which he made himself, off of the back of his pickup.

Now that is quality.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
The other thing to do is look in the gunsmithing forum here and see what Les Brooks can do with his hand tools, some of which he made himself, off of the back of his pickup.

Now that is quality.

An ENTHUSIASTIC second to that suggestion! At TSJC in the '60s we were REQUIRED to make all our chisels among many other things and that's where Les learned and taught. It ain't rocket science and it's the only way I know for a craftsman to get just exactly the shape wanted.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
The other thing to do is look in the gunsmithing forum here and see what Les Brooks can do with his hand tools, some of which he made himself, off of the back of his pickup.

Now that is quality.

An ENTHUSIASTIC second to that suggestion! At TSJC in the '60s we were REQUIRED to make all our chisels among many other things and that's where Les learned and taught. It ain't rocket science and it's the only way I know for a craftsman to get just exactly the shape wanted.
Regards, Joe

I'm sure it's not rocket science but certainly beyond my limited capabilities.

How many hours would go into a stock made with nothing but hand tools?

The stock inletting shown by Texrad was done by Adolph. Not my favorite but certainly considered one of the masters of his day. The inletting style seems to be Germanic as it is very similar to Wundhammer's. Others of the era, like Minar, had inletting so precise it looks like the wood grew around the metal.

Jerry Liles

I can inlet in wood better than I can glass bed. Seriously-my glass bedding usually looks like shit.

The lighting makes the inletting look rougher in the pictures than it is in real life






And trust me, I can name lots of folks who make my work look like the second rate stufff that it really is.

The question starting this thread is a particular pet peave of mine. People who make a W-2 income almost never have the slightest clue how much they actually cost per hour. They say, "I make $20/hr," or, "I make $50k/year." The actual cost to the entity signing their checks depends on several things and is a hell of a lot more than the amount on their check.

I would like to see these 40 hour wonders and compare them with things I have seen, or even the hack work I have done.

And oh by the way, if custom gunmaking is so lucrative, please tell me how many wealthy gunmakers you know. Even if a gunmaker charges $100 per bench hour, that is a hell of a lot different than them having a W-2 job where they make $100.hr

Varying degrees in everything, I suppose.

Link is to an article about Jerry Fisher.

He will have 400 hours in the mannlicher on his bench.

Jerry Fisher

quote:

Originally posted by GrandView:
He will have 400 hours in the mannlicher on his bench.
]

And in most cases the metalwork and woodwork are split about evenly, sans embellishments like engraving. So you can figure he spends about 150-250 hours on the stock including checkering.

I know, not a very precise analysis is it? Not a very precise undertaking either, a LOT depends upon the individual job.
Regards, Joe

Thanks for the link!

not only is Mr. Fisher a true master, but Barry's articles and write-ups of custom gun work matches his engraving skill.

I know that this will cause a stir but I don't mean any disrespect. To each his own. Detailed hand inletting as precise as Marc's above is really a waste of time. The only thing that is important to me is the wood to metal fit at the top line of the wood. I always use Acraglas for the entire surface in the action inletting below the wood line. It's thick enough to provide reinforcement of the inletting. I inlet the barrel for full contact because it is fast with a barrel inletting shaver.

Hey man, i personally do not take it as any disrespect at all. It is horses for courses. If a rifle is strictly a tool for a person (absolutely NOTHING wrong with that at all!!!) then yes, even my hack inletting is a waste of time and money. if it is not a full custom rifle then I glass bed the action and have the entire barrel free floating. That is the right thing to do for that overwhelming majority of rifles that are out there.

Well, technically what i do is put a couple of layers of electical tape on the barrel and glass bed full-length from the rear of the action to the end of the forearm. Then when i pull off the tape i have a nice, even free float. I do not even have the first inch ro two of barrel in contact. There are lots of ways to bed and damn near all of them work.

I used to be into Swiss watches for a while. And I have owned European sports cars. Those sorts of things are like a full contact bedded blued steel/English Walnut custom rifle or a bespoke London sidelock shotgun. Not needed by any stretch of the imagination. Where they provide value is for the person who derives more satisfaction from the hunt when using something mad ejust for them, and made to the highest possible current abilities of man. And they provide hours of of satisfaction and pleasure between the hunts and range sessions, just fondling and admiring the arms in the comfort of your living room.

The high dollar work comes into play when soeoene wants the best gun that can possibly be built. That is where a $6500 price tag buys you a stock that has inletting mirroring the metal as closely as possible. And they also take a hell of a lot longer than 40 hours to make. It also has a style and certain "X Factor" that makes it stir a warm emotion deep inside you every time you look at it, and doubly so when you hold it.

If there is that much money in it, go for it! I for one will stick with business consulting. I NEVER charge by the hour!

While I would agree wholeheartedly that the best wood stocks are a work of art and a joy to behold, word must be said for "cheap plastic stocks" which have many things going for them both aesthetically and functionally. (They are strong and don't look too bad!)

I purchased this USMC MacMillan over run stock for a little over $600, basically ready to drop the action in. Then had it professionally installed and bedded by rifle smith*.




* Same riflesmith quoted me $2500 for wood stock with average wood on my M70 hunting rifles. Being cheap, I purchased factory take off stocks for $125.00 with decent paterns, and had him fit a dark piece of rosewood as a wood forend cap. He also sanded down the stock, and applied an oil finish. Good walnut stocks come off those pre-war Model 70s!

Interesting thread...we talking full blown custom stocks or duplicated stocks...or maybe I missed that part...for instance, a client wants 3/32 cast at the heel and 5/16 cast at toe..like to see how anyone can measure that on a semi inlet.

Before I stir it up...I admit ..there is a place for semi inlets and a time when taking it from the block is the only way to guarantee dimension.

Realistically, a semi inlet takes less time and certain features (extended tangs for instance)can put the time into the triple digits.

The overhead on a fulltime shop is going to run about $20.00 per hour +- for insurance, alarms, electric, heat, water, gas, soap, toilet paper. phone. computer....well you get the idea.
There is no such thing in a shop as a 60 minute hour...you're lucky to get 40 minutes per hour at the bench.
So...that $80.00 per hour I heard really gets sliced up into fractions

Duane:

Reviewed your website. Impressive to say the least including your multi barrel ideas.

What do you think of the rifle in the Col's hand? Never seen anything like it. Must have some power though! Picture taken about 100 years ago or so.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Interesting thread...we talking full blown custom stocks or duplicated stocks...or maybe I missed that part...for instance, a client wants 3/32 cast at the heel and 5/16 cast at toe..like to see how anyone can measure that on a semi inlet.

Before I stir it up...I admit ..there is a place for semi inlets and a time when taking it from the block is the only way to guarantee dimension.

Realistically, a semi inlet takes less time and certain features (extended tangs for instance)can put the time into the triple digits.

The overhead on a fulltime shop is going to run about $20.00 per hour +- for insurance, alarms, electric, heat, water, gas, soap, toilet paper. phone. computer....well you get the idea.
There is no such thing in a shop as a 60 minute hour...you're lucky to get 40 minutes per hour at the bench.
So...that $80.00 per hour I heard really gets sliced up into fractions

Spend less time in the bathroom, your work hours will go up and toilet paper budget will go down.
Don

$20/hr x 2000 hrs/yr = $40k/yr just to keep the lights on?

WOW!
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
$20/hr x 2000 hrs/yr = $40k/yr just to keep the lights on?

WOW!
Regards, Joe

That's about right is my area too. Just look at industrial/commercial building lease rates.
Don

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
$20/hr x 2000 hrs/yr = $40k/yr just to keep the lights on?

WOW!
Regards, Joe

That's about right is my area too. Just look at industrial/commercial building lease rates.
Don

Well, I guess if you hafta lease, and if you hafta pay a note for equipment purchase, and if you have lots of floor area, and if you're in a high-crime or low-fire-protection area then it all adds up. Guess I'm used to the old days when I graduated with no student loans or other debt, and didn't have a shop that I couldn't pay for and/or build on my own property.

Of course I had to work for wages until I could save enough to pay for it.

Average mall storefront floor space in my area is ~$1.50/sf/mo plus utilities. Industrial space is MUCH cheaper and our utilities & taxes may also be less than your area. I'm not doubting the facts, I'm just amazed.

But I'm also amazed at how many of today's students EXPECT to graduate with crippling debts! Wonder what ever happened to work-study, Co-Op, part-time job, live in the dorm and eat beans, summer job, grants-in-aid, holiday job and all the other things we used to do? Or in my own case, some regular 'camp meat' deer? Sorry, end of rant, but I'm still amazed.
Regards, Joe

Joe...IF YOU HAVE AN FFL, you must be aware that there are certain mandated expenses. You must have a contracted alam system; you must have a secure building; you must have an approved safe; and least of all you must comply with ALL existing zoning and buisness ordinances, city and state.

THEN you can start listing and adding up the other expanses. So...tell me...where do you fit into the loop?

Duane, I don't understand your comment, "But that's the cost of having a real job! You know, without retirement from the public trough." I must have misunderstood.

Self-employment tax (that ALL small business owners MUST pay) equals Social Security retirement, the benefit is figured according to the amount you contribute. I guess that IS the public trough but nowadays if I had to depend upon SS alone then I'd be in a world of hurt. Hope you're never in that position.

For comparison, when I was gainfully employed I took home 53% of my gross pay.
Regards, Joe