I am curious to hear others opinions on custom gun prices for rifles that are synthetic stocked. (I understand the value/beauty of high end wood and how it is subjective.)
I see custom stainless/synthetic guns as tools. To me, they are evaluated on accuracy and weight. I know I can have one built for between $2k-$2.5K that will shoot .5 inch. I have one. That is as good as I can shoot anyway so tinkering around for a gun that shoots .25” groups really doesn’t fascinate me.
So, when I see SS/Syn custom rifles that are offered at $5K+, I don’t get it.
What am I missing?

You are missing the fact that accuracy is but one part of the equation.

quote:

Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:
I am curious to hear others opinions on custom gun prices for rifles that are synthetic stocked. (I understand the value/beauty of high end wood and how it is subjective.)
I see custom stainless/synthetic guns as tools. To me, they are evaluated on accuracy and weight. I know I can have one built for between $2k-$2.5K that will shoot .5 inch. I have one. That is as good as I can shoot anyway so tinkering around for a gun that shoots .25” groups really doesn’t fascinate me.
So, when I see SS/Syn custom rifles that are offered at $5K+, I don’t get it.
What am I missing?

You are "missing" the cost of parts and labor. "Box rifles", where all of the components are commercially-available and are essentially assembled by the gunmaker are one thing while guns featuring tens of hours of hand-fitting, machining, and small batch parts are another thing altogether.

I know for an absolute fact that there are synthetic stocked rifles whose component costs alone push the $5k mark. Add in extensive skilled labor and you can triple the $5k figure without being ripped-off.

If the OP is content with a fine shooting factory or semi-custom rifle for considerably less than the lofty numbers for a full custom, so be it.

I don't own a "pricey" custom synthetic but I'd certainly like to and I can appreciate everything about one. I do own some relatively "pricey" semi-custom synthetics and obviously feel they're fine for me.

They're only worth it if you want one and want to appreciate what it is. No problem either way.

Zeke

To me, it is all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I just cannot fork over the money for a custom in a syn stock. I have worked hard for a lot of years, and thankfully, have been able to have a total of three full customs built, all with "traditional" stocks: one in a gorgeous piece of English, one in a piece of black cherry that is now carmine red and stunning, and one that is all but finished, built on a piece of Australian walnut.

But this is just MY preference: kind of like why there are Fords, Chryslers, and Chevies...

I wonder what David Miller would charge for just his metal work on a complete rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:

I see custom stainless/synthetic guns as tools.

Wood or Syn. they are both primarily tools.

Ive noticed that people with fanciest high dollar wood stock rifles, like gold diamond encrusted Rolex watch owners,
tend to be more shy & apprehensive of using them for what they were orig. designed for.

People with syn. rifle and plain-jane base model stainless Rolex , are likely to be out using them more.

quote:

To me, they are evaluated on accuracy and weight.

I will add the factors of;
- more carefree maintenance and tolerance of natures elements - and more easily replaced if broken.

quote:

So, when I see SS/Syn custom rifles that are offered at $5K+, I don’t get it.

Most high end things made for sale are subject to the law of deminishing returns.

'Better value' can usually be found elsewhere if thats all one is after.

If one wants a new V8 coupe there is the Mustang at $40k, but for a more refined V8 coupe theres the $130k Masserati.,
but its not 3 times the car the Mustang is.

might as well have a blaser

There are many different kinds of "custom" built for just as many different purposes and whims as there are people who order them.

Lets see. Custom action with bottom metal $1200. Cut rifled barrel $300. McMillan stock $550. Jewel trigger $230. That's $2280 without any sights or gunsmithing. If you can get a top flight stainless/synthetic built for $2000-$2500 more power to you.

I agree with you 100%, put together a high dollar LW barrel on a Mauser action, add a high dollar composite, Laminate or whatever and add all the candy you want and its still a $2000. gun max, and you could add some more so make it $2500 plus $500 profit, it sure doesn't take long to build one....I see some selling for $6500 to $10,000, I just can't see it, but there is a sucker born every minute someone once said...

I'm sure there are some who will get a kink in their tale, either because they build them and sell them, and more power to them, and those that buy them and don't like to be told they made a bad buy and I won't do that as its their option..I'm stating my opinion as to why I wouldn't go that route.

I don't care for SS and plastic, but I do have two, one a Ruger 77 Hawkeye manlicher 7x57 wood stock and SS action and barrel...The other is an old boat paddle Zytel stocked 300 Win. both will shoot an inch and they are handy when the snow falls in Idaho in the high country...The are worth on todays market about $2000.for both give or take, and resale isn't all that much on any SS plastic stocked gun, custom or factory!

But the bottom line is to each his own and if the buyer is happy, that's about all that counts.

IMO high dollar guns have high grade wood, high grade finished metal mauser actions, rust blue,mullered border checkering, iron sights and proper scope mounts, swift bottom metal, canjar trigger, mod 70 3 pos safety, and such amenities, and they should be used and not be closet queens, they can be refinished every 5 years or so..

Building 4 rifles just to clear enough to pay for an ITAR permit? Not gonna stay in business long making a $500 per rifle profit.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
...put together a high dollar LW barrel on a Mauser action, add a high dollar composite, Laminate or whatever
and add all the candy you want and its still a $2000. gun max,

Well lets see:

A new Prechtl M98 action, quality barrel fitted & chambered , fitted McMillan,
amounts to several thousand dollars already,...and it aint even finished yet.

and when it is finished it will be worth exactly what it costs to obtain the components and build it.

There's a reason H&H doesn't offer stainless/synthetic DRs.

Same reason Ferrari and Lamborghini don't offer chrome bumpers and fuzzy dice. Or white walls.

Esthetics matter to some of us. It's why I got a jag convertible instead of a Chrysler by Maserati ragtop.

I can't see the pride in ownership...

What a complete joke. So let me get this straight. Pride of ownership comes from black steel? Wood stocks. Stupid stupid.

Now, David Miller, D'Arcy Echols, Joe Smithson, and Gene Simillion have all made Stainless rifles in synthetic stocks. Does that suddenly make them worth $2000? Idiotic!

I'm building a purpose built rifle. It has a Pierce Titanium receiver, a very lightweight barrel, Jewell trigger, and it is out to Mark Brown"Brown Precision" for an 18oz kevlar stock. It ain't a $2500 rifle with me doing the smithing, it will be much more. I love walnut stocked rifles, but you cannot build one as light as a kevlar stocked one.
Rifle ain't going to Africa and no I'mm not going on a diet to allow me to carry a 10lb+ rifle.
As mentioned earlier, a rifle is a tool.

I think the point is that with the work involved in making a custom wood stock, plus the hours spent in engraving, it is easier to see where the costs add up in a custom wood-stocked rifle than in a synthetic.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I think the point is that with the work involved in making a custom wood stock, plus the hours spent in engraving, it is easier to see where the costs add up in a custom wood-stocked rifle than in a synthetic.

That is certainly true. The alternative point is that just because a rifle does not wear a walnut stock does not mean that it is not constructed of materials and workmanship that justify a given price.


If we look at custom gunmaking for what it is, a small business, the harsh realities of economics crash many consumers' perceptions of value.

I think the biggest argument against these high dollar SS/Syn custom rifles is that you can have one built for a lot less money that's every bit as accurate and reliable.

That's not a dig against the people building or buying them. There is a market for them and the owners seem to be very happy with their choices. A custom rifle is about what the owner wants.

I think the difference between some guns cost and others is the desire for some craftsmen to produce and offer a rifle that exceeds "commercially acceptable" and approaches perfection. I have lots of synthetic stocked rifles by prominent smiths. I will not buy them new but happily pick them up used for about half their original cost. My Simillion 280 cost me $2800 or thereabouts. I'm sure someone initially paid a lot more.
Pride of ownership is a major issue with some guns. I got ripped for questioning a David Miller rifle reviewed by NRA's Steve Comus. It was synthetic stocked on a new model 70 action. No engraving and the price was $31K. I personally put a cap of $3K on these working guns and have no problems finding them.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
I think the difference between some guns cost and others is the desire for some craftsmen to produce and offer a rifle that exceeds "commercially acceptable" and approaches perfection. I have lots of synthetic stocked rifles by prominent smiths. I will not buy them new but happily pick them up used for about half their original cost. My Simillion 280 cost me $2800 or thereabouts. I'm sure someone initially paid a lot more.
Pride of ownership is a major issue with some guns. I got ripped for questioning a David Miller rifle reviewed by NRA's Steve Comus. It was synthetic stocked on a new model 70 action. No engraving and the price was $31K. I personally put a cap of $3K on these working guns and have no problems finding them.

You cannot find the equal of what Miller builds for 3k. It will not happen.

Chuck you are probably correct but the $3K figure is my personal limit. Do you think the Miller gun is twice as good as a gun by Echols?
I have seen Miller's work and it is magnificent. I just have a hard time reconciling the cost with the components that were used.
I have paid $200 for a steak dinner in New York. It didn't make it the best steak I've ever eaten.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Chuck you are probably correct but the $3K figure is my personal limit. Do you think the Miller gun is twice as good as a gun by Echols?
I have seen Miller's work and it is magnificent. I just have a hard time reconciling the cost with the components that were used.
I have paid $200 for a steak dinner in New York. It didn't make it the best steak I've ever eaten.

Don't think you will find one of Echols for close to that price used.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Chuck you are probably correct but the $3K figure is my personal limit. Do you think the Miller gun is twice as good as a gun by Echols?
I have seen Miller's work and it is magnificent. I just have a hard time reconciling the cost with the components that were used.
I have paid $200 for a steak dinner in New York. It didn't make it the best steak I've ever eaten.

No I don't believe they are. In fact I'd prefer the Legend. BUT they are nowhere near 3k.

If $5000 + seems a lot for a Syn. rifle.....

how about a starting price of US$52,000 for a base model H&H bolt rifle with side mount.
then option it up $$$ from there.


iF it was not for a French female perfume- cosmetics company called Chanel,
H&H wouldn't even exist.

a H&H is now considered just part of the Chanel groups fashion statement...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:


Same reason Ferrari and Lamborghini don't offer chrome bumpers and fuzzy dice. Or white walls.

Fact about the top-of-the-range Lamborghini 'Elemento'

The exterior panels, passengers monocoque shell, front subframe, crumple zones, and wheels are all 'composite construction' carbon fibre-epoxy.


Ferrari say that a 'composite construction' aluminium matrix/epoxy is in the foreseeable future for them,
since it will allow 15-20% reduced weight with retain strength....in the meantime, they are still epoxy bonding parts together while they develop their
more advanced composite technique.

I give up. I have repeated $3K is my personal limit for a synthetic stocked working gun. There are guns by some makers that I will never own. That's OK because there are plenty out there at that figure that are good values, work well and shoot a ragged hole.
No where did I say guns by all makers are only worth $3K used.

I just bought a lightly-used GAP hunting-weight rifle that shoots 1/4" groups for $1,700. Lew, we're in the same boat...returns diminish rather quickly for me above the $3,000 mark on a used synthetic hunting rifle.

$400 FN action/Rem 700
$187. Douglas barrel SS
$300. best composite stock
$35. custom trigger
$150. Mod. 70 3 pos safety
$200. iron sights, barrel band
$ 90. barrel band swivel
$$35. recoil pad

That's $1397.00 with most of the bells and whistle, add labor of a reasonable $400, and add a profit to that of $500 That's $2297. and the builder makes $900 for a rifle he can make in a day...I just built such a rifle for a local cowboy, and good friend here and discounted the $500 profit but charged him the labor..$1797.

I would have sold the same gun for $$4200 with a exhibition Russian Circassian walnut stock..

I'm sure I could have figured out how to charge $8500 for a SS/synthetic custom rifle, but I don't see SS/Synthetics as custom rifles. Just my take, and to each his own, I have no problem with that.

You may be able to buy a composite stock for that price and a ?? trigger, but not quality pieces.

For a retired guy building guns illegally in his garage, $900 is a good day's work. For guys running actual businesses with licensing, insurance, rent, etc. that's not sustainable.

The good guys don't build them in a day, either- more like one gun per month.

There are a lot of details that make sense on some guns and take a bit more time, talent and money than simply screwing a barrel on a Rem 700 and glueing it in a stock.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I would have sold the same gun for $$4200 with a exhibition Russian Circassian walnut stock..

Then you need to tell Holland & Holland they are overcharging by at least 1000%

and the Syn. rifle that you say you can make in a day, would LooK like a dogs breakfast...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
There's a reason H&H doesn't offer stainless/synthetic DRs.

Same reason Ferrari and Lamborghini don't offer chrome bumpers and fuzzy dice. Or white walls.

Esthetics matter to some of us. It's why I got a jag convertible instead of a Chrysler by Maserati ragtop.

I can't see the pride in ownership...

This coming from a man who owns AR "black" rifles

Nice rifle Phil. Ted he may be a little sensitive to that.

I have been contracted many times to put together rifles featuring quality pieces (actions by Defiance, Stiller, Borden etc, Jewel triggers, McStocks) and have done so. To me, it is sort of like assembling a "rifle kit" and I put my mark on the barrel only because I mark barrel jobs. If I contour the barrel, I guess that's a custom touch. If I build any part, that is also a custom touch. Otherwise, it's just putting parts together. Still, I do admire work which is well done, even if it is mostly parts assembly and there are a few guys who do an exceptional job of it.
Personally, I like doing things which are a little bit different. Now that I mostly just do work for myself, I'm free to do just that. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
I have been contracted many times to put together rifles featuring quality pieces (actions by Defiance, Stiller, Borden etc, Jewel triggers, McStocks)
and have done so. To me, it is sort of like assembling a "rifle kit" and I put my mark on the barrel only because I mark barrel jobs....

Pre-war Rigbys were basically contracted rifles assembled from production parts at Oberndorf Mauser-Werke,
then shipped to UK where Rigby engraved their Co. name on it.

Any smith today can buy a new Prechtl M98, Lothar barrel,Recknagel sights,barrel band, etc....and 'kit it' all together.

IF prewar Mauser-Werke had available Hoenig stock duplicators and 5 axis CNCs, I'm sure they would have put them
to good efficient use in their business model, for various 'cookie cutting' processes to assist delivery of the Rigby contract.

One can buy a Recknagel CNC batch produced swivel loop for about $20,
or
order a CNC batch produced one from the H&H machine shop, just for the esteemed privilege of paying 5 or 10 times more.