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Stainless/Synthetic custom rifles

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04 June 2015, 23:48
COYOTE HUNTER
Stainless/Synthetic custom rifles
I am curious to hear others opinions on custom gun prices for rifles that are synthetic stocked. (I understand the value/beauty of high end wood and how it is subjective.)
I see custom stainless/synthetic guns as tools. To me, they are evaluated on accuracy and weight. I know I can have one built for between $2k-$2.5K that will shoot .5 inch. I have one. That is as good as I can shoot anyway so tinkering around for a gun that shoots .25” groups really doesn’t fascinate me.
So, when I see SS/Syn custom rifles that are offered at $5K+, I don’t get it.
What am I missing?
05 June 2015, 00:02
Chuck Nelson
You are missing the fact that accuracy is but one part of the equation.
05 June 2015, 00:36
Woodhits
quote:
Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:
I am curious to hear others opinions on custom gun prices for rifles that are synthetic stocked. (I understand the value/beauty of high end wood and how it is subjective.)
I see custom stainless/synthetic guns as tools. To me, they are evaluated on accuracy and weight. I know I can have one built for between $2k-$2.5K that will shoot .5 inch. I have one. That is as good as I can shoot anyway so tinkering around for a gun that shoots .25” groups really doesn’t fascinate me.
So, when I see SS/Syn custom rifles that are offered at $5K+, I don’t get it.
What am I missing?


You are "missing" the cost of parts and labor. "Box rifles", where all of the components are commercially-available and are essentially assembled by the gunmaker are one thing while guns featuring tens of hours of hand-fitting, machining, and small batch parts are another thing altogether.

I know for an absolute fact that there are synthetic stocked rifles whose component costs alone push the $5k mark. Add in extensive skilled labor and you can triple the $5k figure without being ripped-off.
05 June 2015, 01:01
ZekeShikar
If the OP is content with a fine shooting factory or semi-custom rifle for considerably less than the lofty numbers for a full custom, so be it.

I don't own a "pricey" custom synthetic but I'd certainly like to and I can appreciate everything about one. I do own some relatively "pricey" semi-custom synthetics and obviously feel they're fine for me.

They're only worth it if you want one and want to appreciate what it is. No problem either way.

Zeke
05 June 2015, 03:49
Doubless
To me, it is all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I just cannot fork over the money for a custom in a syn stock. I have worked hard for a lot of years, and thankfully, have been able to have a total of three full customs built, all with "traditional" stocks: one in a gorgeous piece of English, one in a piece of black cherry that is now carmine red and stunning, and one that is all but finished, built on a piece of Australian walnut.

But this is just MY preference: kind of like why there are Fords, Chryslers, and Chevies...
05 June 2015, 05:19
Chuck Nelson
I wonder what David Miller would charge for just his metal work on a complete rifle?
05 June 2015, 06:17
Trax
quote:
Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:

I see custom stainless/synthetic guns as tools.


Wood or Syn. they are both primarily tools.

Ive noticed that people with fanciest high dollar wood stock rifles, like gold diamond encrusted Rolex watch owners,
tend to be more shy & apprehensive of using them for what they were orig. designed for.

People with syn. rifle and plain-jane base model stainless Rolex , are likely to be out using them more.



quote:

To me, they are evaluated on accuracy and weight.


I will add the factors of;
- more carefree maintenance and tolerance of natures elements - and more easily replaced if broken.



quote:

So, when I see SS/Syn custom rifles that are offered at $5K+, I don’t get it.



Most high end things made for sale are subject to the law of deminishing returns.

'Better value' can usually be found elsewhere if thats all one is after.

If one wants a new V8 coupe there is the Mustang at $40k, but for a more refined V8 coupe theres the $130k Masserati.,
but its not 3 times the car the Mustang is.
05 June 2015, 19:06
butchloc
might as well have a blaser
05 June 2015, 20:19
Mike Scott
There are many different kinds of "custom" built for just as many different purposes and whims as there are people who order them.
05 June 2015, 23:11
clowdis
Lets see. Custom action with bottom metal $1200. Cut rifled barrel $300. McMillan stock $550. Jewel trigger $230. That's $2280 without any sights or gunsmithing. If you can get a top flight stainless/synthetic built for $2000-$2500 more power to you.


"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
06 June 2015, 01:29
Atkinson
I agree with you 100%, put together a high dollar LW barrel on a Mauser action, add a high dollar composite, Laminate or whatever and add all the candy you want and its still a $2000. gun max, and you could add some more so make it $2500 plus $500 profit, it sure doesn't take long to build one....I see some selling for $6500 to $10,000, I just can't see it, but there is a sucker born every minute someone once said...

I'm sure there are some who will get a kink in their tale, either because they build them and sell them, and more power to them, and those that buy them and don't like to be told they made a bad buy and I won't do that as its their option..I'm stating my opinion as to why I wouldn't go that route.

I don't care for SS and plastic, but I do have two, one a Ruger 77 Hawkeye manlicher 7x57 wood stock and SS action and barrel...The other is an old boat paddle Zytel stocked 300 Win. both will shoot an inch and they are handy when the snow falls in Idaho in the high country...The are worth on todays market about $2000.for both give or take, and resale isn't all that much on any SS plastic stocked gun, custom or factory!

But the bottom line is to each his own and if the buyer is happy, that's about all that counts.

IMO high dollar guns have high grade wood, high grade finished metal mauser actions, rust blue,mullered border checkering, iron sights and proper scope mounts, swift bottom metal, canjar trigger, mod 70 3 pos safety, and such amenities, and they should be used and not be closet queens, they can be refinished every 5 years or so..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
06 June 2015, 01:37
Woodhits
Building 4 rifles just to clear enough to pay for an ITAR permit? Not gonna stay in business long making a $500 per rifle profit.
06 June 2015, 06:20
Trax
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
...put together a high dollar LW barrel on a Mauser action, add a high dollar composite, Laminate or whatever
and add all the candy you want and its still a $2000. gun max,


Well lets see:

A new Prechtl M98 action, quality barrel fitted & chambered , fitted McMillan,
amounts to several thousand dollars already,...and it aint even finished yet.

and when it is finished it will be worth exactly what it costs to obtain the components and build it.
06 June 2015, 07:13
Idaho Sharpshooter
There's a reason H&H doesn't offer stainless/synthetic DRs.

Same reason Ferrari and Lamborghini don't offer chrome bumpers and fuzzy dice. Or white walls.

Esthetics matter to some of us. It's why I got a jag convertible instead of a Chrysler by Maserati ragtop.

I can't see the pride in ownership...
06 June 2015, 20:06
Chuck Nelson
What a complete joke. So let me get this straight. Pride of ownership comes from black steel? Wood stocks. Stupid stupid.

Now, David Miller, D'Arcy Echols, Joe Smithson, and Gene Simillion have all made Stainless rifles in synthetic stocks. Does that suddenly make them worth $2000? Idiotic!
06 June 2015, 20:45
butchlambert
I'm building a purpose built rifle. It has a Pierce Titanium receiver, a very lightweight barrel, Jewell trigger, and it is out to Mark Brown"Brown Precision" for an 18oz kevlar stock. It ain't a $2500 rifle with me doing the smithing, it will be much more. I love walnut stocked rifles, but you cannot build one as light as a kevlar stocked one.
Rifle ain't going to Africa and no I'mm not going on a diet to allow me to carry a 10lb+ rifle.
As mentioned earlier, a rifle is a tool.
06 June 2015, 21:14
Biebs
I think the point is that with the work involved in making a custom wood stock, plus the hours spent in engraving, it is easier to see where the costs add up in a custom wood-stocked rifle than in a synthetic.
06 June 2015, 22:39
Woodhits
quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
I think the point is that with the work involved in making a custom wood stock, plus the hours spent in engraving, it is easier to see where the costs add up in a custom wood-stocked rifle than in a synthetic.


That is certainly true. The alternative point is that just because a rifle does not wear a walnut stock does not mean that it is not constructed of materials and workmanship that justify a given price.


If we look at custom gunmaking for what it is, a small business, the harsh realities of economics crash many consumers' perceptions of value.
06 June 2015, 23:33
TC1
I think the biggest argument against these high dollar SS/Syn custom rifles is that you can have one built for a lot less money that's every bit as accurate and reliable.

That's not a dig against the people building or buying them. There is a market for them and the owners seem to be very happy with their choices. A custom rifle is about what the owner wants.


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
07 June 2015, 01:22
LJS
I think the difference between some guns cost and others is the desire for some craftsmen to produce and offer a rifle that exceeds "commercially acceptable" and approaches perfection. I have lots of synthetic stocked rifles by prominent smiths. I will not buy them new but happily pick them up used for about half their original cost. My Simillion 280 cost me $2800 or thereabouts. I'm sure someone initially paid a lot more.
Pride of ownership is a major issue with some guns. I got ripped for questioning a David Miller rifle reviewed by NRA's Steve Comus. It was synthetic stocked on a new model 70 action. No engraving and the price was $31K. I personally put a cap of $3K on these working guns and have no problems finding them.
07 June 2015, 03:22
Chuck Nelson
quote:
Originally posted by LJS:
I think the difference between some guns cost and others is the desire for some craftsmen to produce and offer a rifle that exceeds "commercially acceptable" and approaches perfection. I have lots of synthetic stocked rifles by prominent smiths. I will not buy them new but happily pick them up used for about half their original cost. My Simillion 280 cost me $2800 or thereabouts. I'm sure someone initially paid a lot more.
Pride of ownership is a major issue with some guns. I got ripped for questioning a David Miller rifle reviewed by NRA's Steve Comus. It was synthetic stocked on a new model 70 action. No engraving and the price was $31K. I personally put a cap of $3K on these working guns and have no problems finding them.


You cannot find the equal of what Miller builds for 3k. It will not happen.
07 June 2015, 07:03
LJS
Chuck you are probably correct but the $3K figure is my personal limit. Do you think the Miller gun is twice as good as a gun by Echols?
I have seen Miller's work and it is magnificent. I just have a hard time reconciling the cost with the components that were used.
I have paid $200 for a steak dinner in New York. It didn't make it the best steak I've ever eaten.
07 June 2015, 07:19
butchlambert
quote:
Originally posted by LJS:
Chuck you are probably correct but the $3K figure is my personal limit. Do you think the Miller gun is twice as good as a gun by Echols?
I have seen Miller's work and it is magnificent. I just have a hard time reconciling the cost with the components that were used.
I have paid $200 for a steak dinner in New York. It didn't make it the best steak I've ever eaten.


Don't think you will find one of Echols for close to that price used.
07 June 2015, 08:05
Chuck Nelson
quote:
Originally posted by LJS:
Chuck you are probably correct but the $3K figure is my personal limit. Do you think the Miller gun is twice as good as a gun by Echols?
I have seen Miller's work and it is magnificent. I just have a hard time reconciling the cost with the components that were used.
I have paid $200 for a steak dinner in New York. It didn't make it the best steak I've ever eaten.


No I don't believe they are. In fact I'd prefer the Legend. BUT they are nowhere near 3k.
07 June 2015, 09:44
Trax
If $5000 + seems a lot for a Syn. rifle.....

how about a starting price of US$52,000 for a base model H&H bolt rifle with side mount.
then option it up $$$ from there.


iF it was not for a French female perfume- cosmetics company called Chanel,
H&H wouldn't even exist.

a H&H is now considered just part of the Chanel groups fashion statement... rotflmo
07 June 2015, 09:44
Trax
quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:


Same reason Ferrari and Lamborghini don't offer chrome bumpers and fuzzy dice. Or white walls.



Fact about the top-of-the-range Lamborghini 'Elemento'

The exterior panels, passengers monocoque shell, front subframe, crumple zones, and wheels are all 'composite construction' carbon fibre-epoxy.


Ferrari say that a 'composite construction' aluminium matrix/epoxy is in the foreseeable future for them,
since it will allow 15-20% reduced weight with retain strength....in the meantime, they are still epoxy bonding parts together while they develop their
more advanced composite technique.
07 June 2015, 15:27
LJS
I give up. I have repeated $3K is my personal limit for a synthetic stocked working gun. There are guns by some makers that I will never own. That's OK because there are plenty out there at that figure that are good values, work well and shoot a ragged hole.
No where did I say guns by all makers are only worth $3K used.
07 June 2015, 21:48
Biebs
I just bought a lightly-used GAP hunting-weight rifle that shoots 1/4" groups for $1,700. Lew, we're in the same boat...returns diminish rather quickly for me above the $3,000 mark on a used synthetic hunting rifle.
08 June 2015, 22:08
Atkinson
$400 FN action/Rem 700
$187. Douglas barrel SS
$300. best composite stock
$35. custom trigger
$150. Mod. 70 3 pos safety
$200. iron sights, barrel band
$ 90. barrel band swivel
$$35. recoil pad

That's $1397.00 with most of the bells and whistle, add labor of a reasonable $400, and add a profit to that of $500 That's $2297. and the builder makes $900 for a rifle he can make in a day...I just built such a rifle for a local cowboy, and good friend here and discounted the $500 profit but charged him the labor..$1797.

I would have sold the same gun for $$4200 with a exhibition Russian Circassian walnut stock..

I'm sure I could have figured out how to charge $8500 for a SS/synthetic custom rifle, but I don't see SS/Synthetics as custom rifles. Just my take, and to each his own, I have no problem with that.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
08 June 2015, 22:34
butchlambert
You may be able to buy a composite stock for that price and a ?? trigger, but not quality pieces.
08 June 2015, 22:36
Woodhits
For a retired guy building guns illegally in his garage, $900 is a good day's work. For guys running actual businesses with licensing, insurance, rent, etc. that's not sustainable.

The good guys don't build them in a day, either- more like one gun per month.
08 June 2015, 23:17
458Win
There are a lot of details that make sense on some guns and take a bit more time, talent and money than simply screwing a barrel on a Rem 700 and glueing it in a stock.







Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
FAA Master pilot
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
09 June 2015, 04:38
Trax
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
I would have sold the same gun for $$4200 with a exhibition Russian Circassian walnut stock..


Then you need to tell Holland & Holland they are overcharging by at least 1000%

and the Syn. rifle that you say you can make in a day, would LooK like a dogs breakfast... barf
11 June 2015, 06:46
ted thorn
quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
There's a reason H&H doesn't offer stainless/synthetic DRs.

Same reason Ferrari and Lamborghini don't offer chrome bumpers and fuzzy dice. Or white walls.

Esthetics matter to some of us. It's why I got a jag convertible instead of a Chrysler by Maserati ragtop.

I can't see the pride in ownership...


This coming from a man who owns AR "black" rifles


________________________________________________
Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper
Proudly made in the USA
Acepting all forms of payment
11 June 2015, 07:42
butchlambert
Nice rifle Phil. Ted he may be a little sensitive to that.
11 June 2015, 07:49
Bill Leeper
I have been contracted many times to put together rifles featuring quality pieces (actions by Defiance, Stiller, Borden etc, Jewel triggers, McStocks) and have done so. To me, it is sort of like assembling a "rifle kit" and I put my mark on the barrel only because I mark barrel jobs. If I contour the barrel, I guess that's a custom touch. If I build any part, that is also a custom touch. Otherwise, it's just putting parts together. Still, I do admire work which is well done, even if it is mostly parts assembly and there are a few guys who do an exceptional job of it.
Personally, I like doing things which are a little bit different. Now that I mostly just do work for myself, I'm free to do just that. Regards, Bill.
11 June 2015, 11:54
Trax
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
I have been contracted many times to put together rifles featuring quality pieces (actions by Defiance, Stiller, Borden etc, Jewel triggers, McStocks)
and have done so. To me, it is sort of like assembling a "rifle kit" and I put my mark on the barrel only because I mark barrel jobs....


Pre-war Rigbys were basically contracted rifles assembled from production parts at Oberndorf Mauser-Werke,
then shipped to UK where Rigby engraved their Co. name on it.

Any smith today can buy a new Prechtl M98, Lothar barrel,Recknagel sights,barrel band, etc....and 'kit it' all together.

IF prewar Mauser-Werke had available Hoenig stock duplicators and 5 axis CNCs, I'm sure they would have put them
to good efficient use in their business model, for various 'cookie cutting' processes to assist delivery of the Rigby contract.

One can buy a Recknagel CNC batch produced swivel loop for about $20,
or
order a CNC batch produced one from the H&H machine shop, just for the esteemed privilege of paying 5 or 10 times more.