Marc

You post had a lot of great info, but I found this paragraph very interesting:

quote:

People also don't want to feel like they do not matter, so they want their input on the question, even if it is totally irrelevant or insignificant. A&B users defend their choice, even though the barrels can be lemons. People defend Almond's checkering, even though it is mediocre on a good day and shitty on a bad day. People defend ITD $75 barreling jobs as being good. Few have the balls to say they know they are bottom feeders. At times I use Chinese SHIT in my shop. If folks ask why I tell them that it does what I need for the least amount of money. I do not buy Chinese garbage often, but when I do I freely tell people it is to save money and make no pretense that it is equal better, and more expensive, equipment.

I think people use A&B barrels or low cost gunsmithing outfits for the same reason that you use "Chinese garbage" from time to time: these low cost products do what they need for the least amount of money.

The cheapest custom rifle is more expensive than a decent factory rifle, and the hard truth is that the "decent factory rifle" is more than good enough for most of us(from a utility standpoint). And you have to spend a lot more money on a custom rifle if you want it to outperform a factory rifle across the board.

So why do some gun-nuts attempt to have "cheap" custom rifles built? Do they believe they are going to get the equivalent of a top dollar rifle for a bargain basement price? My belief is that they want to own something that they took part in creating or they simply want something that is not readily available.

Case in point: I seem to remember you building a deer hunting rifle that had to fit certain specific parameters to allow you to hunt. As I recall that rifle was made of less than top quality components, but it sure got the job done.

Sorry if I'm rambling, but my point is that your rifle is a great example of a rifle that would been no more useful if it had been built only out of top quality components.

And, I really disagree with you on this:

quote:

There are exactly two reasons to make guns or do any gun work. Those reasons are to make a serious and significant profit, or you don't have anything better to do. I assumed he wants to make a lot of money, as he has written about just getting started ins several other posts. And yes, those really are the ONLY two reasons.

What about the people who simply love guns and want to make a living working on them? These guys obiviouly are not too interested in money(as there are far easier ways to get rich) and many of them could do "better" things if they wanted to, but guns are what they love.

But this is true of any art or craft.

Krieger gets my vote.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Finlander:
I can't believe I read all that. Long on words but short on content. I get it.

You might have read all of the words, but no, you absolutely and completely do not understand what they say. you would not beleive the hundreds of thousands of dollars that i have seen lost because people do not understand what i said. unfortunately, more than a couple of those dollars were mine.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Marc

You post had a lot of great info, but I found this paragraph very interesting:

[QUOTE]What about the people who simply love guns and want to make a living working on them? These guys obiviouly are not too interested in money(as there are far easier ways to get rich) and many of them could do "better" things if they wanted to, but guns are what they love.

But this is true of any art or craft.

This has nothing to do with the poster's question and I will not go off in this direction again. here is the last answer to it:

Yes, i buy chinese garbage when I know I need to do something only once or a couple of times and cannot justify spending 6X the money to get no improvement in final outcome. Using Chhinese junk will require exra work from me to make the final project as good as if I used US or European widgets that are better. Notice I said I will loudly tell anyone I bought junk and will have to work more to make the final product as good as it would have been if I were using better and more expensive product.



As for he hobby guys, well, it is a hobby. they are doing it because they have nothing better to do. Just like they shoot and hunt and go skydiving when they have nothing better to do. Most of the custom rifles built oday result in no true profit to the maker. Most people in fulltime busienss do not really understand how much profit and expenses they haave. For part time business people it is orders of magnitudes fewer who understand. As well, The overwhelming majoriy of the custom rifles are financed by the gunmaker. So a guy is spending a lot of hours working on a gun for no remuneration, and he is actually paying to build the rifle at the end of the day. That is a hobby. trying to say they make a little or pay for the hobby is like folks who say they are hunting and getting meat, so hunting saves the family money.n Hobbies are things you do when you have nothing better to do. that is why people are either trying to make money or they do it because there is nothing better to do.

if the original poster just wants to almost cover his expenses and have fun making chips, then it does not matter what he does. As I said in my post, I assume he really does want to make money. If he does not want to make money, then who cares what he does?

I am not and not want to get caught in a game of semantics. from 30,000', peopel do what has to be done or they do things because there is nothing better to do. Way too complicated to go into here, and does not relate to the original poster's question anyway.

"What the fuck are you talking about!? The Chinaman is the issue! Dude!"

What a great movie!

Marc you sure typed lot with out saying much.

But what I did get from all your rambleing was if your a gunsmith/maker of high end rifles you better turn out a great product or your going to lose bussness.

Your right about that if some one is paying you 8 grand to build a top end rifle it better look funtion and shoot better then anything else on the marget. Other wise why spend that kind of money except for bragging rights.

Marc,
Not that they need my help, but I am not going to stand by and let you run down Douglas barrels. Douglas barrels are not a cheap barrel- PERIOD.

There are a heck of a lot of good gunsmiths in Pennsylvania and they make plenty accurate rifles for their intended purpose. They choose the proper barrel for the job. For the accurate, custom hunting rifle, Douglas is a fine choice. You will only hear praise of Douglas barrels by these smiths. The customers will also be giving praise upon receipt and firing.

Douglas barrels are a little rough on the outside but that is cleaned up in short order with 100 grit belt sanding between centers. This is a cost and time saving process by Douglas. Douglas barrels are usually available, now, not 6 months lead time for a barrel with just a little more accuracy potential that they will never realize anyway.

Contrary to what many people here think, the world doesn't rotate around benchrest. Field guns aren't held steady and don't need to group in thousandths of inches. MOA is more than adequate and Douglas supercedes that easily as long as the smith is halfway competant.

There are loads of big name gunsmiths, including guild members who proudly use and promote Douglas barrels. My earlier list of my current guns with Douglas barrels is not my only experience with Douglas, they are just what I have on hand.

Douglas has always been a good choice in these parts.

Don't bother replying. As you said people aren't going to change their mind, but I am not letting you spew your garbage tainting a well respected company, that has been providing quality barrels for a looooong time.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Marc you sure typed lot with out saying much.

But what I did get from all your rambleing was if your a gunsmith/maker of high end rifles you better turn out a great product or your going to lose bussness.

Your right about that if some one is paying you 8 grand to build a top end rifle it better look funtion and shoot better then anything else on the marget. Other wise why spend that kind of money except for bragging rights.

Nope, you absolutley do not understand what it said. This is a perfect example of why a busienss person/entrepreneur will often not try to explain things like this to others unless you can tell soemone has an open mind and is capable of "getting it."

And agsin, one's propensity to get it does not make them better or smarter in any way shape or form. Just as I can never learn to make a piano come alive and move people, most folks will never get it. That is why I own a radio and most people work for soemone else

this guy is fixing to brand himself whether he wants to or not. The question of the hour is which way will he go. One way definitely will not hurt him, while the other way has the potential to lessen the value of his brand. Initially setting your brand is easy and later elevating your brand is difficult.

If someone will pay for an octagon Douglas they will pay for an octagon Shilen. One has no chance of hurting you. The other likely will never hurt you, but it can. Don'tt take the risk of that oppurtunity cost when there is no need to take that risk.

Something that has not been mentioned is that Douglas bores are larger than the other brands. It has no detrimental effects on external ballistics, but it does require that you buy at least 3 extra reamer pilots for each caliber you use. And the fact that their bores are consistent means you may even have to get 4 or in an extreme case 5 additional pilots. This adds up and all it does is eat profit in a busienss that has almost none to begin with.

I had to read Marc post a couple times, but I do see what he's saying. Read it as if it was black and white, there is no grey area in what he wrote.
I can remember a number of articles where the owner of a new rifle makes a point of telling the reamer was from "the great Keith Francis" I think his name was anyway. It was part of the glory of the rifle, doesnt matter if the smith ran it in sideways I guess, but the reamer was a Francis.
I also understand the Douglas barrel part. If I remember right, a premium XX Douglas was straight and true as is, a standard Douglas was/or could have been, straightened. Of course straightened barrels were done by others, but Douglas told of it and so word got out there. A Lilja or Kreiger just doesnt market a barrel that would have to be straightened.
Even though I consider $3 grand for a NULA alot of money, it is still just a hunting rifle, not a show piece. I would expect it to shoot very well, or have the barrel replaced by NULA so the use of a Douglas doesnt hurt matters in that rifles class because it's not a "snot" rifle to begin with.
Am I on the right track Marc with where you were going?

Fal, I didnt read your question as completly as I should have. I missed the part that you was going to stock finished barrels. My take on this is to build what you plan on makeing and show the diffrent contours you want to do in any barrel of your choise, then let the customer supply the barrel they use...everyone has there favorites! If you machine it one way, someone going to ask for it to be machined .005 diffrent another way...thats just the begining of the fun when dealing with the public.
So, in a nut shell show what you can do, and let your customer supply his favorite brand and machine to there specs. I think you could sell some that are already made up, but it limits your customer base...maybe? Do up a couple and see!

Got to love it, when someone takes a keyboard and pulls the trigger and blows there brains out all over the monitor...

quote:

Am I on the right track Marc with where you were going?

you TOTALLY get it. It all revovles are what i started with - what really is reality, both concrete and percieved? Different folks see reality differently and the whole theory of reality is very complex and a side issue from the poster's original question. That is why I said we had to assume only one "true" reality for the purposes examing how falgrunt's business will be seen when he rolls out to the public.

What I sugest he think about what I was saying about folks who would buy his barrels. Everyone I have ever run across in the custom gun world thinks Shilens are good. I know a lot that think Douglas' are bad. What happens on a rifle range does not matter. their perception of reality is not going to chenage even if they read 100 positive posts where people tell about their experience of seeing one bear they saw when they had a Douglas barrel.

This whole issue of branding is simple in a casual but is incredibly complex when looked at in detail. When I am faced with a decision where one way is probably just fine and has little chance of hurting me, and a second way is not capable of hurting me, I go with Number 2.

srtrax, no intention of stocking barrels, never have had that intention and never will. I am not sure where Marc got that idea.

Marc, I have to ask, do you know what a Shilen and a Douglas barrel sell for? I wrote a few responses, but I wound up with, thank you for your post.

quote:

srtrax, no intention of stocking barrels, never have had that intention and never will.

O.K. now I "get it"...

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
that is why people are either trying to make money or they do it because there is nothing better to do.

I agree with you 100% on this. But that is not what you originally wrote. Here is what you wrote:

quote:

There are exactly two reasons to make guns or do any gun work. Those reasons are to make a serious and significant profit , or you don't have anything better to do. I assumed he wants to make a lot of money , as he has written about just getting started ins several other posts. And yes, those really are the ONLY two reasons.

Originally you wrote that people either want to "make a serious and significant profit/a lot of money" or are doing it as a "hobby". I agree with you that some people get into gunsmithing as a hobby, and some to get rich(make a serious and significant profit/a lot of money), but by far the most common motivator for beginning gunsmiths is that they want to make a living doing what they love. And making a living does not require a "serious and significant profit/a lot of money".

Very few people get into gunsmithing with dreams of making "a serious and significant profit/a lot of money". Anyone above the level of "moron" understands that there are far, far, easier and more sure ways to get rich than gunbuilding. (I'm not trying to inflame, but that is a fact)

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
this guy is fixing to brand himself whether he wants to or not. The question of the hour is which way will he go. One way definitely will not hurt him , while the other way has the potential to lessen the value of his brand. Initially setting your brand is easy and later elevating your brand is difficult.

OK, forgetting about Falgrunt and the Douglas Vs. Shillen barrel question, and looking back at your Clymer Vs. top quality reamers scenario.

Branding yourself(or product) as "elite" can hurt your business. Just imagine if you had started chambering for the BR guy. Maybe it would have led to a constant flow of money making jobs, or the BR jobs may have dried up after you gained a reputation as a "overpriced, elitist, BR snob" after you had alienated the "ham-n-eggers" with the Douglas and Shillen barreled hunting rifles.

Or look at it this way: who is making more money, Douglas and Shillen or Hart and Kreiger?

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
srtrax, no intention of stocking barrels, never have had that intention and never will. I am not sure where Marc got that idea.

Yeah Fal Grunt, I have no idea how anyone would get that idea.....


Oh maybe this had something to do with it:

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
I went to order a batch of Shilen unturned blanks in various calibers to cut into octogons.
============================================
These octogon barrels will all be for re-sale, so the question is... which would my potential customers prefer?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but what the heck were we supposed to think? You are buying in bulk, planning to resell, and polling potential customers.......... It sure sounds like you are/were planning to stock barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
Not to start a pissing match, but which would your preference be?

Well at least you didn't start a pissing match.

No worries, I get sarcasm.

I have to agree with you Jason. While I prefer Krieger, Shilen is my go to barrel. Unfortunately Shilen has been less than accommodating the last few time I have places orders. Like I said, a friend suggested Douglas, he is not a "bottom feeder" and so I wanted to hear other opinions.

Either way, it is a moot point. I already placed an order with Shilen.

FWIW (probably not much) I install Douglas barrels 10 to 1. I've never had a bad one and they usually ship pretty quick. If you don't like the rough turned barrels order the finish turned barrels direct from Douglas.

Man if Douglas barrels don't shoot I'd better not tell my rifles. I've used Shilen, McGowen and Douglas in hunting rifles. I've never had an issue with any of them. I've also never seen one shoot better than the other.

Douglas air gaged barrels are excellant hunter/varmint hunter grade barrels at a nearly rational price.

Shilen/Hart makes BR grade barrels.

Few sporter actions and even fewer shooters are likely to show any difference at the range.

I use Shilen barrels almost exclusivly. Can't remember the last time I used a Douglas but it was quite a while ago. I think they were better years ago but not so good today. It used to be all the highpower guys were using them but they all went to Krieger, Hart, Obermeir or others.

I WILL NOT EVER AGAIN USE AN E.R.SHAW!!!! :ast tpime was about 20 years ago.

While taking one of the summer courses at TJC a few years back, one of the students asked the instructor (long time staff) which barrel was better. Krieger, Shilen, Douglas, etc. His reply still sticks in my mind to this day. "Which one does your customer want?" It is that "branding" that Marc talks about. As to what goes on my guns, I have Douglas for the majority, due to buying a batch at a couple of estate auctions, but also have Womac, Weisman and Pfiefer barrels/blanks waiting in the barrel rack or on guns. Yeah, I know that dates me and by todays standards they may not be the best, but they are good barrels. My last years craze of building a batch of ARs has me using Black Star, Lothar Walther and Krieger. Bottom line is all of them will probably shoot better than I ever will and are competitive, accurate guns. With todays components and attention to detail it is not hard to have a sub MOA - 1/2 MOA rifle. Heck, I bought a Sears FN .270 for a 6.5-06 donor and made the mistake of zeroing it to loan to a new hunter. A 4 shot group @ 100 yds. with Remington 150 gr. factory off Wally World's shelf shot through a Swift 3x9 scope measured .64". I bought all the same ammo lot that the 2 local WW's had (200 rounds) and stuck it in the safe.

To answer the OP, If you told me it was a Shilen barrel, I would be delighted. If you said Douglas, I wouldn't think any less of it.

First off I have to agree with Mark that most purchasers would probably prefer Shilen barrels over Douglas...not because they are always better, but because they are perceived to be better.

If folks feel they are paying for the very best, they want materials which have a reputation in the marketplace for being one of the very best. Sometimes that "branding" is the result of performance. Other times it is the result of marketing practices.

I don't necessarily agree though that there are just two reasons for being in the gun business. At least a few gun business folks enjoy what they do, and are in the business because they can make enough money to keep on doing what they want, the way they want, even if they don't rake in the loot hand over fist.

They make up for the lack of sheer piles of money by revelling in the independence they have in their lives and their work, the freedom to try different ways of doing things, and the opportunities to work with objects that they might never have the opportunity to even touch otherwise.

I think it is one of the tradjedies of rampant industrialization that such small shops are now considered "out of touch" with reality and that their owners/operators "just don't get it".

Often making a lot of money is the antithesis of true craftsmanship in ANY area of endeavor...art, music, mdicine, the practice of law, you name it.

People who love their craft are often more than willing, even anxious, to keep on doing what they love the way they want, even if their individual approach is not as financially profitable as other business models might be.

That doesn't mean they don't get it. Maybe they intuitively understand that making a ton of profit requires destroying what their business really gives them that they primarily want.

Anyway, though just anecdotal and probably just the luck of the draw, I have several Douglas barreled rifles and three Shilen barreled rifles in my vault right now. All of the Douglas barrels perform better than the Shilen barrels, and the Shilens were installed by three different firms (one of them Shilen) so it is possibly not just the skill of the installers.

So, for my personal match rifles I use Hart, Mike Rock, Black Star (I have a bunch of blanks from years gone by still in stock), and Kriegers. For hunting rifles I generally use Hart or Douglas, now that Paul Marquart is no longer here.

Still, regards the question originally asked, I'd say "Go with Shilen".

I usually don't comment on these subjects as its mainly a matter of opinion, but since i'm a bottom feeder I think I should agree with the above that it depends on the intended purpose of the rifle, more importantly, that the barrel is fitted properly and bedded correctly. Also bottom feeder rifles tend to be shot, I've examined several high end rifles that were 20 years old and never shot , could have just as well used a water pipe.

Mel Forbes can build a $3k Douglas barreled rifle that shoots 1/2" ...and some higher end custom builders a $10k+ Krieger barreled rifle that shoots 1.5"

This workhorse Pre64 7x57[Douglas] and utterly refined M98.270win[Shilen] both deliver 3/4" or less, despite a $10k difference in price,.....If having a Krieger that delivers the same makes one personally feel better, then go for it.....otherwise the guns themselves and the game taken cant tell the difference.

Awesome thread
Butter and cheese stuff.
ignoring the facts of what actually shoots better out of 10,000 tubes and the irrelevance of what the particular one you have does.
(yes I agree Marc)
and
that equally applies to the irrelevance of the occasional 'shitter' in every brand.
.........oh yeah .......shit happens in the best factory.........and slips thru QA.

( customer service , or not, deals with that & is in the end part of "branding"& reputation)

A wonderful piece on the psychology of "branding" and one strand of business principles Marc.

fewer truer words said in less than 50 pages in a textbook.

unfortunately lost its impact by being embroiled in the specifics of the already branded acolytes in many of the responses to the specifics of the OP.

Branding is 'perception'
branding is built on reputation, deserved or not.

Branding by the user of a component in an assembly inherits a chunk of branding from the component..........if they choose to advertise the heritage of the component.
Without advertising the heritage of components the assembly creates its own 'branding' on its function , beauty , & price point.
Unfortunately assemblies involving barrels are inextricably branded in the marketplace no matter how good the machining or assembly they are a component of.

Again, an excellent discourse on one strand of the psychology of buying, selling ,& Business.
I get it, I live it, I understand its relevance to the top end of the market.
I live however in the other end of the market, high volume-low profit margin business. A different psychology & business plan exists there...........but it sure isn't where after-market custom barrel machining or custom gunmaking is.

Kudos for the effort at enlightenment Marc, your prescience was 'on the money' ..........most didn't "get it".
Kudos too , to those that acknowledged the context of Marc's comment & did get it.

It wasn't about which was better , it was about what the majority of the market thinks is better , and that relevance in the business plan.

Good luck with your business FG, whatever your choice for whatever reason.

Passion for doing something excellently, however doesn't have to be a business plan. It helps tho if the incomings exceed the outgoings...........to express your passion on the next one you do.

My passion is building custom fishing lures. Fortunately I have a 'rep' for both function , beauty , & results ( according to others).........its not a business tho.........& I doubt it ever will be.
....its just a passion, supported by my real business .

Business however is business......its about making profits, not holding slow moving or dead stock, and price point at the market sector you are targeting........... passion & business are all too frequently poor bedfellows.
........occasionally a brilliant combination.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Dean Miller built me a Schuetzen rifle on one of his actions using a Douglas Premium Air Gauged barrel. I set a couple records with it, and finished in the top 10% for the bench segments. Jim Feren won the Coors Matches at Golden several years in a row with Douglas barrels on his rifles. I have had long range Rockchuck rifles built with Douglas barrels that would shoot in the low .3's at a hundred, and under an inch at 300 for 5-shot groups. Five 5-shot groups aggregate average size.

We need to differentiate between the group that will write a check for more than six or seven grand for a rifle, as opposed to the rest of us on wages during our working life.

If you are going to talk a Shilen as much more accurate, take a look at the equipment lists for any big time accuracy match. Shilen is way down the list in 5th or 6th place at the Super Shoot or at Camp Perry most years.

With air gauging, "El Stinko" barrels never leave Douglas or Shilen, or any barrel makers shop.

I would opine that nine out of ten customers cannot tell the accuracy difference between the two if you did not tell them. Especially a hunting rifle.

Rich
Sua Sponte

Well if you are going to make them into octagonal barrels, that falls into the safequeen category of guns and your clientele will prolly "want" a Shilen over a Douglas for no other reason than the perceived "better" name appeal of Shilen in that particular demographic.

Ah, screw it buy the one that has the better sounding name: ultra match, air guaged match, whatever sounds more impressive....

Braux!

Your customers are going to what the barrel that you recommend so long as your recommendation sounds real.