This may be better suited in gunsmithing?

Not to start a pissing match, but which would your preference be?

I went to order a batch of Shilen unturned blanks in various calibers to cut into octogons. Lo and behold, shilen raised their prices 15% since July.

This puts them very close in price to Douglas.

These octogon barrels will all be for re-sale, so the question is... which would my potential customers prefer?

Question:
Shilen or Douglas XX?

Choices:
Shilen
Douglas XX

 

Many (not all) probably wouldn't care.

Nathaniel

Will a cut rifling barrel have less stress than the button rifled ones , when removing a large amount of metal ?

Hal

For me it is a toss-up. I have used Douglas since the early 70's and have never had a bad one. That said, I recently used my first Shilen and have been ecstatic over the results. I find it to be the easiest to clean of any I have owned. I also found the external finish to be superior to the last few Douglas barrels that I have used. All that was necessary with the Shilen was light sand blast and Parkerize. Not so with others.
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!

I've always had very good luck with Shilen barrels so I tend to stick with them. Nothing bad to say about Douglas except I don't care for a "rough" turned barrel.

Terry

I didnt vote, because I dont think you would go wrong with either one. I have machined and set up rifles with both. I have used Shelen more because of customer requests. I have used more Shilen barrels for my own projects, and have not had any issues with them!
I am starting to look...(want)unturned oversize blanks and dont know if either one makes one over a 1.250" full diameter blank?

I think Douglas does one last heat treat after rifling which might make them stay straighter after machining than the Shilens. That's one thing that you need to pay particular attention to.

DO NOT (!!!) even consider Douglas, unless you are going to be making products only for bottom feeders. You can get all sorts of answers to your post, but you need to be asking folks who are on the selling side of goods and services in the custom firearms filed. While it is fine for consumers to tell you about one or two barrels they have had fitted in their lives, you need to be asking folks who have installed a lot of barrels. One reason you need to be talking to them is bcause they had a bare minimum of 10 (VERY conservative number, it is actually way more than 10:1 for everyone I know)conversations per actual barrel fitted withetire kickers. The professionals, whether full or part time, know what custom gun purchasers want

I appreciate that you need to get some feedback, but when you ask a question in the manner you did the majority of the answers are "All bears walk single file through the woods. At least the one I saw did."

Why not order some Shilen Barrels and some Douglas Barrels and then offer the customer what they want.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Why not order some Shilen Barrels and some Douglas Barrels and then offer the customer what they want.

Because what customers want and what they should use are two different things. Giving them what they want, while sounding like a model business solution, often leads to disappointment & frustration.

That doesn't mean that from a design and looks standpoint you shouldn't try to give them what they want. But from a materials standpoint you should use what you know is best.

Well I don't know about that "bottom feeder" name for those using Douglas barrels. I have used them for nearly 50 years now and they work for me and several other folks I know. I have also used Krieger barrels and from my experience can not claim one is any better than the other. Have also used Shilen barrels and the one I had on XC match rifle worked fine, but did not get the life out of it as the other two. Have also used Obermeyer barrels and they are a fine barrel, but not so much better that it shoots any better than the Douglas or Krieger.
I am near 70 years old and have been shooting rifle matches(not bench shooting, sling-prone) since I was 16 and if Douglas barrels were sub standard, myself and others would not have used them. These barrels are worked hard, stay too hot to touch throughout the match day and if there are any stress areas in the barrel it will show up and give stray shots at 6-1000yds. Just in the Douglas shop week or so ago and there were some dozen or so barrels headed for Griffin and Howe.
Will grant you that on the firing line of most major matches(Quantico, Oak Ridge, Perry, Malvern, Buntner, etc.) there are more Kriegers than other brands, but Douglas barrels are not uncommon either.

quote:

DO NOT (!!!) even consider Douglas, unless you are going to be making products only for bottom feeders.

Doesnt UltraLight Arms use Douglas XX for their rifles? ULA has a reputation for accuracy, and are far from cheap, so if someone elses barrels were far better would they worry about a few extra dollars if the accuracy was far superior??

I do not own a Douglas, but I do own several Shilens. The stainless ones I own do not seem to need cleaning. When I have cleaned them, it's been very easy. The rifle that an AR smith built me has a Shilen CM. Shot it for the first time yesterday to break it in. Used factory ammo for this and was very happy. Another AR smith is building a SS for me. He chose a Shilen also. Is there a pattern here ?

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:

quote:

DO NOT (!!!) even consider Douglas, unless you are going to be making products only for bottom feeders.

Doesnt UltraLight Arms use Douglas XX for their rifles? ULA has a reputation for accuracy, and are far from cheap, so if someone elses barrels were far better would they worry about a few extra dollars if the accuracy was far superior??

You have got to be fucking kidding me!!! On so many levels this response is bizarre. I am sorta a loss for words to reply to such a question. OK, here she goes.

Is NULA even still in business? If they are still operating then they are a very, very, VERY tiny group in the custom rifle world.

Even when they were in their prime in the '80's, they had an accuracy reputation by '80's standards. Back then the mean accuracy level of factory rifles was considerably lower than today. People making custom guns then was a fraction of what it is today, so it was really easy to be “known” for accuracy. Few people were making fiberglass stocked rifles that were designed for accuracy. It was mostly blued steel and walnut with accuracy of 1 1/2” groups considered OK.

More to this, when the ULA articles were being run, almost no gun owner had any idea that there was such thing as a custom gun. Even today it is only slightly better. In 1984 (that last time ULA was considered remarkable) out of the extremely small group of gun enthusiasts who knew there was such a thing as custom guns, hardly any knew barrel makers' names. `The only 2 names that were known were Douglas and Shilen. Even back then Douglas was considered to be the “cheap” custom barrel by most of the few people who knew there were custom guns and knew any barrel makers' names.

This was also in the pre-internet world. The guy gets a write up in most of the few gun magazines that were in publication and voila- they were known for accuracy! With folks being able to talk to others around the world today, and with so many people using benchrest gunmaking techniques on not only the SS/glass guns, but also on the blued steel/walnut guns, then NULA would not appear to be anything other than “OK.” Making the cut, but nothing to write home about.

And your last part is just jaw dropping. Do you think ULA was the ne plus ultra of custom guns?! Companies make damn near ALL decisions on cost to some degree. “Worry about a few extra dollars?” This is laughable. It is so far out there I honestly do not know how to answer this part. Are you stuck in 1984 and subscribe to all 4 popular gun magazines at the time, reading in each how ULA is the ultimate in custom guns and spares NO COST AT ALL in their attempt to be the ultimate in accuracy? God Almighty, this is mind blowing.

MFD-

So tell me, in your 70 years just how many of those did you spend rebarreling rifles for clients? When you were shooting the barrels you installed, just how many of your clients were shooting in the same matches? What was your target client base (how much did your typical custom rifle sell for) for your custom gun business? If you are like a typical custom maker, you will have anywhere from 20-30 tire kickers for every sale. Out of the tire kickers how many wanted Douglas?

The fact that you have shot and seen others shoot Douglas in your XC matches does not mean anything . For one, it is hardly the ultimate accuracy rifle competition. Go to the Super Shoot this year and tell many how many of the top 20 shooters shot a Douglas.

But even that is meaningless, as custom octagon barrels are not made for target shooting-they are made for custom guns. Check with all of the makers who's base rifles sell for $10k or higher and get back to me on how many of those barrels are Douglas. Your XC experience has exactly zero relevence to high end customs. Actually,

Does a Douglas ever get put on an upper mid range rifle? Sure. What is the percentage of upper mid rang (let's say $6500-8500) customs using Douglas? I don't know and it is impossible to get this data, but I can tell you the percentage will be low.

I knew folks were going to get their panties in a wad because something bad was said about poor ol' Douglas. That is the only reason I did not post earlier-because I knew the shit storm would begin. As soon as someone has their pet whatever considered to be inferior to anything then they start crying.

And as soon as an experienced guy says something they see day in day, folks who for whatever reason feels their ox has been the least little bit gored they start spouting off theory to the contrary. It never fails.

FAL grunt-

I can give you some very good reasons why it is almost always a terrible idea to stock barrels, much less barrels that have had any custom work done on them. And I can also help you with things that will help or hurt you when targeting a market. PM or email me if you want to discuss it.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Why not order some Shilen Barrels and some Douglas Barrels and then offer the customer what they want.

Not sure if you were serious or if this was a joke. if you were serious- stocking any barrels is almost always a bad idea. Stocking barrels with labor tied up in them is even worse. Doubling the inventory on the off chance that someone would want the other brand you not only stock, but have labor tied up in both on top of that, well, that is a lot more worser.

quote:

You have got to be fucking kidding me!!! On so many levels this response is bizarre. I am sorta a loss for words to reply to such a question. OK, here she goes.

Marc, do you ever get to see daylight with your head that far up your arse?
It took me 1 minuete to see ULA is still in buisness, and about the same to find reviews of accuracy, mostly in the 1/2" range with good loads. You sound like a total fool or an ass with the rant you spouted off to me. You should go tell Melvin Forbes he's been doing everything wrong for 18 years as you know more about his buisness then he does.

Well, to begin with, did not mean to get your "panties in a wad," and if someone disagrees with your opinion, experience, etc. that does not necessarily make those folks "bottom feeders" and you one of the elite.
I don't build custom guns, never said that I did. I am what is commonly referred to as a "user" and that makes me more than qualified to pass judgement on whatever barrel I use is a good one or not a good one.
Been to the Super Shoot and accomplishments there are excellent. One small point though, they shoot from a bench and doubt they shoot 75 rounds in a match and do so for several days in a row. Last time I was there the distance was 200yds, but perhaps they have lengthened things now, but doubt that the bench is taken away. Take the rifle off the bench, go prone with micrometer sights, sling, and gaze out there at 1000yds with the wind and mirage and you will very quickly find out if you, barrel and loads are up to the task. Across The Course, XC, is position shooting with rapid fire stages and longest distance is 600yds. If you can not "clean" the 600yd target, need to do more practice with whatever barrel you are using before going to the 1K mark.
Greatly admire those 'smiths that build works of art, but building and "using" are two entirely different disciplines requiring different skill sets and bodies of knowledge. Neither are to be discounted.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:

quote:

You have got to be fucking kidding me!!! On so many levels this response is bizarre. I am sorta a loss for words to reply to such a question. OK, here she goes.

Marc, do you ever get to see daylight with your head that far up your arse?
It took me 1 minuete to see ULA is still in buisness, and about the same to find reviews of accuracy, mostly in the 1/2" range with good loads. You sound like a total fool or an ass with the rant you spouted off to me. You should go tell Melvin Forbes he's been doing everything wrong for 18 years as you know more about his buisness then he does.

I read your second post and thought, "this guy has to be screwing with me." But i read it 2 more times an I really do think you are serious.

My next thought was, Damn, too bad there are not a couple of million other folks just like this guy who are looking to buy a custom gun." all of the used car dealer gunsmiths would have a field day and actually make decent money

and BTW-I still am not sure why you think NULA (last I heard it was N (new) ULA because OClt would not let Forbes operate under ULA after they(Colt) thoroughly fucked up the rifle) means jack shit today. They have been a nobody he sold to Colt. Or did Colt buy ULA from soemone else? Don't rememebr and it doesn't matter. All that matters is NULA is not even a single black spec in the plate full of grits that is the custom gun world.

Not sure why you are hung up on them so much. They sure as hell are nothing speckial. They are neither the lightest nor most accurate custom SS/glass rifles. If you think they are anything special then too bad not more guys like you want custom guns.

Hey, do this for me. Please call Mr. Forbes in the morning and as him if EVERYTHING on his rifles is the absolute most expensove that can be used, or does he use a less good (less expensive) things on his rifles.

There is no "best" or "worst" barrel, and everything you have written has indicated you do not appreciate the irrelevence of what you are posting and how it would apply to FAL grunt's business decision he is pondering.

ETA-hahaha, you got me, I fell for it. The part that pushed me over the edge to knowing you were screwing with me was the 1/2" groups deal. There is just no way a guy in 2011 considers NULA to be any remote sort of authority on accuracy, that NULA will spare NO expense and will not let spending more dollars keep them from using only the best materials, and that some pictures of 1/2" groups on a web site would mean anything to you. Hahaha, you got me! I fell for it at first!

quote:

Marc, do you ever get to see daylight with your head that far up your arse?

Quite appropriate I'd say!

Marc,

I am not saying this to further push any of your buttons, but if you re-read the posts above it seems as if the entire "shitstorm" is all coming from you. You obviously have a strong opinion on the matter, but I haven't seen any concrete reasons given as to why you feel Douglas is so inferior to Shilen.

If this has been re-hashed to death in other threads I apologize, but I honestly don't know the difference in the two. I see comparable price, comparable performance as observed by some experienced users, what are the real objections of the experienced installers?

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Marc,

I am not saying this to further push any of your buttons, but if you re-read the posts above it seems as if the entire "shitstorm" is all coming from you. You obviously have a strong opinion on the matter, but I haven't seen any concrete reasons given as to why you feel Douglas is so inferior to Shilen.

If this has been re-hashed to death in other threads I apologize, but I honestly don't know the difference in the two. I see comparable price, comparable performance as observed by some experienced users, what are the real objections of the experienced installers?

We ahve a winner!!! A guy who is focused on the original question and is asking abpout how it applies to the custom gun world. Sir, you are a saint among sinners.

my hands are fried right now. if you can give me an hour or so i will try to peck it out. my hands barely work during the day and night just shuit down. if i cant finish it tonight will for sure do it in the morning

THAK YOU!!! A man who is acxtually seeing the big picture. more soon

ooh, ooh, ooh! a chance to use a line from one of my favorite moves:

"Dude, the Chinaman is not the iussue!"

thanks for not getting caught up in the side track BS. I usually never go off the track like that, but I have to tell you that bit about NULA was too tempting bait for me

dang, hands hurt really bad. more soon

And I would like to see where the original poster said these were for benchrest match guns? I'm staying on topic, a hunting rifle built to good, but not benchrest standards that will shoot 1/2" is more than 99.9 percent of the hunting needs in the feild. I dont have a NULA, I just remember them starting as ULA so thats what I go to when I type, and have only a couple douglas tubes. I'm not stuck on either one as the best of anything. I only comented that one company who makes $3,000 rifles use them and is doing fine by them and their customers.
have a drink and get some sleep marc, you need it.

Fal Grunt,
What are the intended uses for the barrels you originally talked about? I dont think you have to spend 8-10 grand before you can call a gun a "custom". If building a benchgun I would want the barrelmaker who wins the most matches. If a mauser or pre 64 win is the action, neither are a benchrest ability platform so you might choose a barrel with the most (snooty) appeal to go with the show and tell of big money laid out for a 10 grand full custom job. What about all the rest of us bottom feeders, that might want a octo barrel for a nice win. levergun, or a sharps or martini. Just wondered what market you were aimed at?

back40-i really did think you were screwing with me but beleive you now. no hard feelings? i have not heard of ula mentiuoend in several years and figures that is why you picked it to screw with me. beleive you now and think there are no flies whatsoever on nula, it is just that they are not the most common rifles talked about

montea-

working on answer. am going to give specific example how i lost a lot of money on soemthing that is exacvtly like this. hope others believe it can learn from it, but if not, then i have done all i can do

I'll try to respond to everyone, but I apologize if I missed you.

Z1r I have to agree most of all with you. My short time in the Tool & Die field has told me that the customer rarely knows what it is best. In the time that I have been doing custom work for customers I have found that my "job" is to know what is best, and gently nudge my customers that way until I find out otherwise.

In the case of my post, I have lots of GOOD experience with Shilen. With rifles from hunting to bench rest. However a $20 increase per barrel was a bit of a surprise.

So I went shopping. A customer and close friend who used to compete and was VERY GOOD suggested Douglas. I give creedance to any advice he gives me, especially business advice. He started his own company when he was my age and now spends $15k-$20k a month on firearms. I digress, I trust his advice.

As such, I felt it necessary to ask. This particular batch of barrels will be a test batch. Most will get barreled on mauser actions, shot, and tested. If my process works well then they will be sold as barreled actions and I will continue to offer custom octagon barrels of any sort to my customers.

While mausers, mod 70's, and 1917's are my favorites, machining is machining. If you want an octagon cut for a winchester then I would be happy to do that. Martini, sharps, you name it. I enjoy cutting steel, I have a knack for detail, I am willing to do anything you want if you are willing to pay for my time.

I LOVE prewar sporting mausers. As someone who works with steel for a living it amazes me the ability these craftsman had 100 years ago. I have shown 1/2 octagon 1/2 round barrels with integral ribs to experienced machinists and they are at a loss as to how to make them, or how they were made 100 years ago.

So, the question was merely whether it was worth buying a few douglas to cut. If anyone (Marc) has some empirical evidence as to why the quality of their barrel is less than a shilen, please, present it.

thanks.

quote:

back40-i really did think you were screwing with me but beleive you now. no hard feelings?

Of course I dont have any hard feelings, it was nothing to me as I have no money tied up in anything to do with the above. Sounded like the end to a hard day, we've all been there.

$15K to $20K a month on firearms?

quote:

Originally posted by brad may:
$15K to $20K a month on firearms?

Yeaaaa.... it is a bit crazy. Not always consistent. Last month he bought a HK41, HK51, and a HK33. So far this month he has bought a DIAS and a FA 1919. December was slow, he bought 3 WWI era 1911's and a loaded Dodge 1500.

I really did not research and total what those items cost... just pulled a number out of thin air.

bad illness (i am disabled) flare up from moment woke up. too pain to write. will write up a ssoon as possibl;e. good busiens slesson i learned the hard way. hope people coming along behind me can use my negative experience to prevent you from going through that pain and losing that money. takes a while to fully explain so you understand exactly what goes on in pruchaser's minds. will take time to write. pray tomorrow better

skunk out

oh, b40 - thankya podna .

I hope you feel better soon Marc. There is always more to learn, so hope you can finish what you'd write on the topic Fal-Grunt asked.

I have 4 rifles with douglas barrels on them two Mark X and two ruger 77MK IIs they are all sub min rifles. I wouldn't have a problem using another one.

So Marc what barrels to screw on the rifles you make.

I am a Douglas fan and user. I never saw or heard of any bad experiences with them. Mine are all sub MOA

I have my son's custom 98 with a tapered octagon Douglas 30-06 on it.

I have a Douglas barrel on my AR-15 service rifle competition gun, 223 Rem 1:7 twist.

I have Douglas stainless #5's on my 416 Rem and 375 H&H pre 64 M70 customs. Both are 1:12

ETA: I didn't vote as both are quality barrels.

I use PacNor or Brux the first is button rifled, the second is cut rifled.

I voted for Douglas just because of my limited samples. I have used Douglas, Shilen, Lilja and yes, even A&B. The rifles ranged from $8k to $1k. The only bad barrel I had was a Shilen. The others performed to expectations. No, I don't expect A&B to shoot better than MOA, but it did. The rest shot 1/2" if I did my job, with the Shilen exception and Mr. Shilen was, shall I say, less than hospitable, when I talked to him. I will have a Douglas polished before I use Shilen again.

I usually agree with Marc, but not in this case. And yes, my Shilen sample is limited to a size of 2 for them. Just my experience.

sorry guys, forgot to answer this. typing up long answer and hope to have it posted by tonight. it will be a faiurly long read (at least 5 pages) if my fingers hold out

Neither. Buy a Krieger match grade.

I have a couple of Douglass XX barrels and they have all proven to be very accurate so I think that the difference is really subjective.

First off, this is almost impossible to explain in in short writings for many reasons, the least of which is that I am very limited in the use of my hands. An AR member convinced me to get the speaking software tuned to my voice and I plan to start this weekend. The primary reason it is so hard to explain in writing is that the question falgrunt (fg from here on out) asked is an incredibly deep and complicated topic. I can literally write a 300 page book focused around his question. In college it would take 2-3 classes to fully explore this question. The good sales classes (which are very few and far in between) take months to impart a good degree of truly understanding and owning the knowledge and real world experience. This is something I paid real money to learn about. I am talking about shelling out five figures for dedicated sales/consumer training and losing significantly more than that over the years. Very significantly more.

OK, I am just going to say this once so I don't have to repeat or use a lot longer sentences that I would otherwise need to. I am going to just be succinct and direct about this. Also, this is a topic that almost no one “gets.” For that reason, there are going to be people who read something that may ruffle their feathers. If that bothers you, then don't read it or read it and don't comment on it for emotional reasons. I have to conserve finger usage and will be to the point. If you have a question or differing opinion based on business principles then by all means, please comment.

Another problem is that almost no one in the population “gets it” when it comes to successfully running a business. That is why most people are employees. Even a lot of business owners don't “get it” and basically are just being their own boss. A world of difference between a business owner and a person who owns their own business but is just their own boss. That is a long to[pic for another discussion, but the fact that almost no one reading this will get it is going to be problematical for folks truly owning the knowledge written about here. Hopefully enough folks will at least believe the points posed below.

Oh, a point needs to be made here. I am in NO WAY saying that I am smart, above anyone, possess secret knowledge or any other thing that can even be a remotely positive thing I am saying about myself. I am the first to tell you that I am most definitely NOT a smart man. As a matter of fact, I can prove mathematically that everyone on earth is equally stupid. There is almost nothing I do well. I do “get it” about business, but I can show you how almost everyone is smarter than me about damn near everything. But every person on Earth is good at something, and I am good at getting it (gi from here on out).

OK, to the question fg posed. First we have to assume something. There are exactly two reasons to make guns or do any gun work. Those reasons are to make a serious and significant profit, or you don't have anything better to do. I assumed he wants to make a lot of money, as he has written about just getting started ins several other posts. And yes, those really are the ONLY two reasons.

I want to say up front that I am in no way, shape, or form trying to put down your personal experiences and feelings about Douglas barrels. You feelings and experiences are 100% valid and important. Those are facts. Non-negotiable facts. They also have an uber-small chance of being relevant to fg's question. That is a fact. Non-negotiable. His question is about making a lot of money by working on guns.

What we are dealing with here is people's buying habits. If you have 3 Douglas barrels on rifles, saw several matches won with a Douglas, have used Douglas barrels for 60 years, etc, etc, while that may be 100% true and are very legitimate reasons for you to want to own more Douglas barrels, these tiny sample sizes and your personal choice are completely meaningless in the big picture scope of the original poster's question. More importantly, no one who has spoken up has said anything to make you appear as a custom gun buyer who will be a good client and allow fg to make a lot of money making guns.

As a roughly sorted list, the easiest ways to make money are as follows:

1. work on AR's
2. work on 1911's
3. work on pre-WW II doubles
4. be a custom stockmaker
5. make stainless/synthetic guns
6. be a re-barrel shop
7. be a custom metalsmith

Making real money working on guns is almost impossible. I have ripped people's heads off for telling something is impossible or saying it can't be done, but if there is a way to start out with nothing and actually become a profitable custom metalsmith just by working on guns, then I sure have not figured it out. And I have spent many hours and calculated on the back of many, many envelopes. You either need a “real job” or have outside help. Even if you intend to make a lot of money doing it part time, you have to seriously defund a lot of other things in life. That is true for almost everything in life, but it is several orders of magnitude harder if you want to be a custom metalsmith. And even if you make a lot of money making guns and are the most successful person in the custom field, you are still making a fraction of what a business owner in “mainstream” field would make. Actually, I don't know of any business owner who “gets it” that would work to make what the most profitable gunmaker makes. The money just is not there. OK, so why talk about this? It all has to do with branding.

Branding. Wow, what a complicated contorted morass through which every business owner must wade. Your brand is what defines you. Your brand is what immediately pops into clients and potential clients' heads when they hear the mention of your name. Your brand is your reputation, and people will see your reputation through a lot of crazy means. Every business owner must determine at what strata in the marketplace they wish to compete. In custom guns, you have bottom feeders and high end clients. A claim can be made for a small sort of murky middle ground where someone will spend $6.5 -8k or so for a rifle in their lifetime, as well as sinking $4k or a little more in a few other rifles. This may look murky to others, but in reality they are in the “bottom feeder” (bf) category. The other category we'll call “big kahunas” (bk) for the purpose of the post. These two groups see the value of your brand vastly differently.

OK, we need to establish a couple of rules in effect in the universe. One, people buy emotionally and justify the decision rationally. It is just the way it is, even for anal retentive engineering types such as myself who love to analyze something to death before buying. There are degrees to how far someone acts this way, but we all act this way. Two, only slightly more than 0% of gunmakers have had any significant sales/business/psychology/human behavior education. You get information on this to some degree everyday, but and even smaller percentage actually learn from it. Three, no one wants to be considered a bottom feeder. Four, no one wants to be told or be proven that they are wrong, especially in a public forum. They will spend significantly more energy defending their position than it would take for them to educate themselves on the issue at hand. And some people just like to argue, especially those with thin skins or have a great need to be seen as right by others. All of this is a major part of the custom gun business

So considering that your brand is the first thing people think of , and people are buying emotionally, then you need to spend considerable time and effort into making your brand worth what it needs to be to immediately determine where potential clients rank you on the food chain. That, in a nutshell, is all there is to branding. Brands are perceived in ways that may or may not reflect the reality of the branded entity. The bad part of this is that the fact that the entity’s reality and the general public's perceived reality can be, and often is, not a true reflection of that entity. Or to put it another way – what the world thinks about you and what you really are (at least in your own mind) can be two different things. A brand is all about perception. Reality is a very complex subject and not as black and white as it would at first appear. Several semesters of college classes can be taught the question, “What is reality?” In order that the whole concept of reality not be debated in all the following paragraphs, let us say that for the purposes of this discussion your real world self and business are “reality.

The fact that reality is defined by each person who perceives it is both good and bad. The old saying, “You only get one chance to make a first impression” got to be an old saying because it is true, so people keep saying it. That first impression, that perception that the other person has about you, is of vital importance to anyone in business or sales. The initial way people see you is how they will first think of you each time your brand is mentioned. If you want to make a lot of money in the gun business you must not have folks think “cheap” when they hear your name. People immediately remember you by how they first knew you. If they hear your name once or twice, then it does not have the impact as it would if they heard your name over and over. Of course the bad thing is that folks who spend real money on guns will often not use you if they have only heard of you once or twice. The high end custom gun world is a very shallow pool. Good people get mentioned and folks remember the names. This is the reason that TV actors often have a star that burns out entirely or is just an ember after a huge, well known show ends. They are always remembered as “Kramer,” “Newman,” “The Beaver,” etc. Anyone who leaves the corporate world will learn that your friends remember you as the person who worked at X or did Y for a living. It is the same for any gypsy who moves a lot. You are always “the guy from Y.” The funny thing is that your new neighbors always remember you from some place different, I.e as “the guy from (the last town you lived in).”

This can often, but not always be overcome. Some stars go on to be mega-actors in vastly different roles in major TV shows, but most don't. Even the ones who make it are remembered as “that guy from (the previous show),” and it takes a hell of a lot of work and effort to change their initial thoughts about the actor's brand. That energy is wasted time and money if you own a business and started out with a brand different from where you want to go. And for a lot of customers it does not matter how much time, energy, and money trying to convince them that you are now a higher end gunmaker. They never will change their minds. Period. End of story. Money lost. Understand what opportunity cost is, truly own the concept, and fight to make every dollar you can.

Ok, I said I would give a specific gunmaking example of how using a Douglas barrel can cost you a lot of money. The first time I moved to MN I got a mortgage through a guy who was serious into rifle competition in the area. There was no one local who could do match barrel fitting and just general things he and his fellow competitors needed. I asked some folks who knew some of the other serious competitors and they all told me that yes, this first barrel job would lead to a lot of future barrel jobs if the rifle shot. I did my due diligence and frankly, was pretty damn surprised to hear that the work really was mine to lose. Prospects like to dangle what I call “vaporware future work,” which is the promise of all sorts of future things if you just cut them a sweat deal on this job. I talked about the job several times with the mortgage guy and I finally got the job. We started getting the specifics worked out and he asked what kind of reamer I used. I said, “I started by borrowing a Clymer reamer, but now I use Pacific Precision (PTG today), and also like JGS. I have heard good things about Manson but have not used him.” All he heard was “Clymer” and he totally shut down. I kept trying to get him to understand that I just used a Clymer reamer for my very first chamber and ordered Pacific Precision reamers for any new work. He kept saying, “Clymer Reamers are the Montgomery Wards of reamers. They are just cheap garbage.” That guy said Montgomery Wards a few more times, did not hear another word I said, and told me forget the project and there really wasn't a need for me to be at his office any longer.

PLEASE believe me when I tell you I can give you several hundred examples just like this. I either lived them myself, or watched it happen to friends who were fellow business owners or outside sales people. It is just one example, but it made quite the impression on me.

Now I have said numerous times on AR that folks give their experience and it is worth exactly as much as the statement, “All bears walk through the woods single file. At least the I saw did.” Just as that gives you no help with learning bear behavior, folks giving anecdotal evidence in poll questions gives you no known good data for you to use. There are several reasons for this. For one, their sample size is way too small to even remotely be statistically significant. Also, almost no one knows how to properly test something. And that goes for people with PhD's in the sciences or engineering fields, even though by definition they should know how to set up a test. Another reason is that in folks in general want to look smart and get very defensive if they look dumb. I have seen given advice not to do something, just to watch them do it any way and get burned. Then they start making up excuses why the advice they were given was wrong, they were smarter, but some other once in a lifetime occurrence made them lose.

Another problem is the aforementioned bottom feeders is that a hell of a lot of them are notorious for getting their hackles up and trying to shout down any notion that a widget they bought for 1/3 the price of a widget that the overwhelming majority of widget enthusiasts consider to be a hell of a good widget, is an inferior widget. They have all sorts of anecdotal evidence and talk about the one bear they have ever seen in their life. They are smart for spending 1/3 the amount and got a widget totally equal to the widgets that idiots bought for 3 times as much. People used to do this primarily in face to face manner. Now they do it on every single internet board that deals with any way, shape, or form of widget. No one wants to be called bottom feeder.

People also don't want to feel like they do not matter, so they want their input on the question, even if it is totally irrelevant or insignificant. A&B users defend their choice, even though the barrels can be lemons. People defend Almond's checkering, even though it is mediocre on a good day and shitty on a bad day. People defend ITD $75 barreling jobs as being good. Few have the balls to say they know they are bottom feeders. At times I use Chinese SHIT in my shop. If folks ask why I tell them that it does what I need for the least amount of money. I do not buy Chinese garbage often, but when I do I freely tell people it is to save money and make no pretense that it is equal better, and more expensive, equipment.

So remember this key fact – if you ask for opinions, don't expect people to tell you they made a mistake, they are tightwads, they know how to properly test something, etc., etc. etc. asking questions is vital for survival in the world, but know two key things: 1, what to ask, 2, who to ask. An ungodly number of people have exactly zero real world experience and just repeat what they read on forums. Between them and single bear seers, most answers to questions you get will be garbage.

I remember the first time I read about Melvin Forbes back in the early '80's. I can remember the school I was going to and left there in early '84, so it was pre-May 1984. I was very impressed by most of what I read. I remember 3 primary things. 1, he bedded his rifles with full contact between the barrel and glass bedding in the forearm, 2, he was rebarrelling (at his expense) a .300 Win Mag for a guy because it started walking after 6 shots, and 3, I was truly shocked that he used the CHEAP Douglas barrel on those rifles. It blew my ind, even back then at that early age and early life of the US custom gun industry. Back then, even in my early teens I knew more about guns than most folks. I knew rifles could be fitted with a custom barrel. I knew of THREE custom barrel makers – Douglas, Shilen, and Hart. Most other rifle nuts only knew of only knew of Shilen and Douglas. Even back then Douglas was known as the CHEAP after market barrel. Not just the most inexpensive, but the cheapest in all regards. A while later I learned of Shaw barrels. These were consider the scum of the earth. Shaw supposedly retooled and had some great new equipment that allowed them to now make good barrels. Go back and read AR threads about how folks still don't trust Shaw barrels and never will. It is the good ol' branding thing in action. Real world example of how it works and how it can bite you in the ass if you don't start out correctly.

Sorry guys, but Douglas barrels are cheap. Not just inexpensive, but cheap. If you want to save some money and use a Douglas for the job then by all means do it. I could not care less what barrel you use. Hunt up and old Shaw for all I care. But don't let your experience with a Douglas or 3 redefine what has been established in the marketplace. One of the magazine articles that absolutely blew my mind was when a few years ago (at least 5) Craig Boddington wrote an article about some mid-range customs (would be $6500-8k today) that shot only so-so as far as magazine articles go. They were shooting about 1 1/2” at 100 yards. He said that he saved some money by going with Douglas and if he was truly after better performance he would have bought a better barrel to begin with. He said he wanted better and usually got it, but he honestly could not expect Douglas to deliver top grade accuracy all the time.

OK, now here is a truth in the universe that is even difficult for folks to grasp. If you think that almost no one “gets it” when it comes to business principles, you will be blown away by how few people truly understand this truth of the universe – people, and companies, make exactly what they think they are worth. Look at what Lilja, Kreiger, et al charge and then check out Douglas' prices. You do the math.

OK, so let us assume that for the sake of argument that if you used 1000 Douglas and 1000 Shilen barrels you get the exact same performance of all types. One is just as good as the other. The fact of the matter is that Douglas has the general reputation for being cheaper than Shilen. Not less expensive than Shilen, but cheaper than Shilen. That is just the way it is. Maybe for good reason, maybe not but that is the prevalent perception in the world of folks who are into custom guns. You can build a $12,000 spec gun with a Shilen barrel and sell it. Build the same exact gun with a Douglas barrel and get back to me with what you hear from folks who regularly spend over $8k on a gun, and often have at least 2 such projects going on at any one time. Folks who spend that once in their lives are not the ones who will allow you to make a lot of money making guns.

I know that most do not have the experience of shopping for Porsches or Ferraris. It is a totally different experience than shopping for an F-150 or a mini-van. It is just night and day different than than shopping for a “regular” car. Things that would never even be asked during a normal transaction are an instant deal-killer on a Porsche. Please believe me when I say Porsches and Ferraris are night and day different than a Z71 just as a Douglas is bight and day different than a Shilen. Most people do not have experience on both the buying and selling side of luxury goods transactions. It is a whole 'nother world.

It all boils down to the barrel equivalent of my Clymer moment: Building a rifle with a Shilen barrel will not hurt you. Building the same exact rifle with a Douglas barrel can. If someone will pay for a Douglas octagon barrel, then they would also have no hesitation buying a Shilen octagon barrel. Again , know who to ask what. Ask the right people why this is a truth of the universe.

I can't believe I read all that. Long on words but short on content. I get it, you think that Douglass is cheaper, meaning lower quality, than Shilen. I know that Douglass used to offer stadard barrels that were suppose to be better than your typical factory barrel but did offer premium air guaged barrels that cost damn near as much as a Shilen or Hart or whomever's. If you gambled with the standard you could get a bad one but I have never seen a premium Douglass that didn't perform as expected.

I think it really depends upon what your trying to build, either rebarreling an old deer rifle or building a competition rifle for thousands of dollars. It's a subjective choice.