I've had 2 catastrophic case failures and have had my face peppered and right thumb tattooed. Thankfully they weren't with mausers and both were scoped rifles. I vaporized the extractor on one and when I sent it in they fluxed the receiver and had to replace it.

Speaking from experience, there is no doubt in my mind the thumb slot would have worsened the effect. I'd rather have all that shit go straight into my chin than my eyes as I make a living with them.

I do think it would limit damage to the action, but at the shooter's expense.

I feel gas handling is overrated- you're gonna get peppered. I'll never be able to compete with you arguing on design- God only knows how much more you've forgotten than I will ever know. But it looks good/better on paper than it works.

I do think the bolt stop is a genuinely good thing, the thumb hole is definitely not.

PS those rifles were not Winchesters

I've had only one catastrophic case failure. The rifle was a 98 with the thumb cut. My face was not peppered, nor was my thumb tattooed.

Sounds like Craig is speaking from experience.

Years ago I built a .308 Winchester on a 98 for a client. A few days after receiving it he comes in to talk to me and says he felt a puff of air and saw smoke upon firing a round. He then pulls out a case and shows me. It has a huge split in it. He tells me he was glad he was shooting a Mauser. First thing I notice when looking at the case was not the huge split in it but the rim! He grabbed two boxes of PMC ammo and one happened to be .30-30 not .308.

Other than the split case, nice job of fire forming.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Years ago I built a .308 Winchester on a 98 for a client. A few days after receiving it he comes in to talk to me and says he felt a puff of air and saw smoke upon firing a round. He then pulls out a case and shows me. It has a huge split in it. He tells me he was glad he was shooting a Mauser. First thing I notice when looking at the case was not the huge split in it but the rim! He grabbed two boxes of PMC ammo and one happened to be .30-30 not .308.

You know we hear of this unbelievable stuff all the time on these forums, but the story always seems to be missing photos.

I'm impressed. That photo is worth a thousand words.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I've had 2 catastrophic case failures and have had my face peppered and right thumb tattooed. Thankfully they weren't with mausers and both were scoped rifles. I vaporized the extractor on one and when I sent it in they fluxed the receiver and had to replace it.

Speaking from experience, there is no doubt in my mind the thumb slot would have worsened the effect. I'd rather have all that shit go straight into my chin than my eyes as I make a living with them.

I do think it would limit damage to the action, but at the shooter's expense.

I feel gas handling is overrated- you're gonna get peppered. I'll never be able to compete with you arguing on design- God only knows how much more you've forgotten than I will ever know. But it looks good/better on paper than it works.

I do think the bolt stop is a genuinely good thing, the thumb hole is definitely not.

PS those rifles were not Winchesters

That is pretty darn silly. You are not "speaking from experience" you are using a ton of conjecture to come up with a flawed theory that the thumb slot Mausers would have injured you worse than the action that actually did injure you that did not have thumb slots.

BTW, you forgot to mention what actions caused your injuries.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
I've had only one catastrophic case failure. The rifle was a 98 with the thumb cut. My face was not peppered, nor was my thumb tattooed.

considering it did not hit your face or thumb, I cannot see how hot gas would then direct differently in any other case rupture,
that sent high speed gas along an identical restricted path/passageway.[ ie; along the left wall]

THe laws of physics-fluid dynamics indicate that high speed gas that is channeled along the left wall would be directed the same,
on any number of identical featured M98 actions.

However, IF someone believes that is not the case,
then kindly explain why the direction of gas escaping via the left wall cut-out,
would be erratic/different, from one typical case rupture to another.

Interesting to note:
Muzzle brakes have in effect, large notches or 'cut outs' that direct/vent high speed gas escaping the barrel.
And they direct that gas in a most consistent & reliable path, for each & every shot fired.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Years ago I built a .308 Winchester on a 98 for a client. A few days after receiving it he comes in to talk to me and says he felt a puff of air and saw smoke upon firing a round. He then pulls out a case and shows me. It has a huge split in it. He tells me he was glad he was shooting a Mauser. First thing I notice when looking at the case was not the huge split in it but the rim! He grabbed two boxes of PMC ammo and one happened to be .30-30 not .308.

So...did the escaping gasses go right into his L. eyeball...according to experts...that's what happens!

Thankfully no, because as it turns out he wasn't wearing his shooting glasses at the time!!! No pepper either. There are many other much loved actions out there that do far less to redirect gas than the 98.

I think people just have trouble tracing the path of gasses down the Mauser receiver. They fail to see that whatever gasses may make it past that thumbcut get first blocked by the massive bolt stop, and then any remaining gasses get further redirected by the bolt shroud. I used to love Jim Wisner's old 3 position safety because of its big flange.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

That is pretty darn silly. You are not "speaking from experience" you are using a ton of conjecture to come up with a flawed theory that the thumb slot Mausers would have injured you worse than the action that actually did injure you that did not have thumb slots.

BTW, you forgot to mention what actions caused your injuries.

Both rifles had flanges (I think the Cooper does...need to check). Not unreasonable to think that by allowing more gas to not run down the raceway into a dedicated gas block would allow for a greater likelihood of unblocked gas hitting the face.

The first is from a Cooper somethingorother which was a K Hornet. I had tried fireforming with wax and soap at first- didn't work. Temper induced sloppiness resulted in my loading shells of small rifle primer, pistol powder and bullets. As best as I can recollect- the first two shots I felt a sting on my right cheek. I'd be lying about what I remember about inspecting the cases or my thinking it was just fireforming????? The third shot jammed the bolt and vaporized the extractor. I dunno if it was because it was case colored or because of the 3 shots, but Cooper fluxed it and said it was done for.

The other was a Ruger (I don't now I don't like them). We decided to go hunting after the (dry) family reunion and my wife's uncle said he'd lend me his 7 mag as he had just returned from Colorado and it still had the shells in the magazine. That was one of his .270 shells on top.

I got peppered both sides of my face and my right thumb. I do remember telling him I'm glad he was blind as a fucking bat and had to close my left eye to see through his scope as I got peppered around my left orbit.

You are right it is conjecture, but it's also not heresay nor is it pure theory or an unreasonable thought. And yes the opposite may be true about the thumb cut. I don't think so- having been peppered in the face twice I'm thankful there was not a thumb slot regardless of the manufacturer. If I hadn't gotten peppered I wouldn't even post here. I was simply agreeing with what others have thought was a design flaw.

I'm not stupid enough (let alone disrespectful) to attempt to argue with Mr. Wiebe based solely on conjecture. Actually despite how it comes across in my speed posting I'm not really trying to argue- simply telling you my experience.

I don't give a damn what you do. Not trying to convince anyone or selling snake oil. I'll just never feel comfortable using a rifle with a thumb slot- that's all not a big deal.

And if you want to cross your arms in front of your chest and grunt BOWELS NO MOVE, fine.

PS I found out a few years later the old man did it again....

I have read numerous times in the past, that by removing metal from the action, due to the thumb notch cut on the receiver, weakens the action at that location and is the first place to give in a blown action scenario.
Individuals like P.O. Ackley and many followers of the high velocity syndrome, spike the pressure curve to suit their whim but at what cost?
In a hunting scenario especially with dangerous game. The last place to push the envelope is in velocity, thereby inviting case sticking and extraction problems, which can be a determent to your health. If it is such an issue, thicker metal should be designed around the notch area to strengthen and eliminate the problem.
Why are many custom actions competing in the ultra light weight category with thin rails and perforations don't cause a problem?
I believe manufacturers have eliminated it to cut labor time and cost to increase profits. But we all know bean counters know best. This is just one of the cuts in butchering the original Paul Mauser design.
I personally favor the thumb notch with all the attributes listed above by experienced members. Due to being left handed no one makes one.
Custom manufacturers are not making them, because we are not demanding them. They also like their profits.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Thankfully no, because as it turns out he wasn't wearing his shooting glasses at the time!!! No pepper either. There are many other much loved actions out there that do far less to redirect gas than the 98.

I think people just have trouble tracing the path of gasses down the Mauser receiver. They fail to see that whatever gasses may make it past that thumbcut get first blocked by the massive bolt stop, and then any remaining gasses get further redirected by the bolt shroud. I used to love Jim Wisner's old 3 position safety because of its big flange.

And any leftover (lacking a better term) gases are blown/directed down into the trigger guard/mag well. That's why blown floorplates are often seen in blown case incidents.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Thankfully no, because as it turns out he wasn't wearing his shooting glasses at the time!!! No pepper either. There are many other much loved actions out there that do far less to redirect gas than the 98.

I think people just have trouble tracing the path of gasses down the Mauser receiver. They fail to see that whatever gasses may make it past that thumbcut get first blocked by the massive bolt stop, and then any remaining gasses get further redirected by the bolt shroud. I used to love Jim Wisner's old 3 position safety because of its big flange.

And any leftover (lacking a better term) gases are blown/directed down into the trigger guard/mag well. That's why blown floorplates are often seen in blown case incidents.

That's very true, I was discussing the path down the left rail but didn't do a very good job of stating that.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

And any leftover (lacking a better term) gases are blown/directed down into the trigger guard/mag well. That's why blown floorplates are often seen in blown case incidents.

The majority of the gas will still go down the railway due to inertia, not simply "leftovers." Gas that expands quickly enough to push a bullet at nearly 3,000 fps is not gonna just go poof and dissipate like a faggot's fart.

Regardless, that is my point exactly- I want all the gas to run down the railway with zero potentially going into my left eye.

What were you shooting?

And yes, I was gonna start a thread on does anyone else need a secretary for their reloading after I had a WTF are these shells I found in one of my ammo boxes

Okay, how about, the balance of the expanding gases? Or maybe the remaining gases? Either one sound better to you?

The rifle I was shooting, as I said was a 98 Mauser. Specifically, a 1908 Brazilian DWM, chambered in 7x57 Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Gas that expands quickly enough to push a bullet at nearly 3,000 fps is not gonna just go poof and dissipate like a faggot's fart.

New tag line.

Adam

quote:

The majority of the gas will still go down the railway due to inertia, not simply "leftovers." Gas that expands quickly enough to push a bullet at nearly 3,000 fps is not gonna just go poof and dissipate like a faggot's fart.

'Inertia' is the tendency to resist change of direction of travel or flow.

I would say that gas venting down the left rail, has relatively low inertia,.......why?

The escaping gas will always take the path of least resistance in its attempt to equalise[ASAP] with the atmosphere.
Hence, gas travelling down the left rail, will vent out the large left wall notch as soon as it gets the chance,
at the highest Speed and Volume [flow rate] possible.
The left wall notch still being a restriction,
will cause some proportion of gas to still travel to the rear of the action toward the bolt stop & rear flange.
[in its attempt to equalise ASAP, by following the path of least resistance in all directions possible]

When gas reaches the additional restriction of the bolt stop & rear flange,
The gas still coming down the left wall will continue to take the path of least resistance,
ie; be vented more out of left wall notch, rather than trying to defeat the greater restriction of the bolt stop & rear flange.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Okay, how about, the balance of the expanding gases? Or maybe the remaining gases? Either one sound better to you?

The rifle I was shooting, as I said was a 98 Mauser. Specifically, a 1908 Brazilian DWM, chambered in 7x57 Mauser.

Actually I was tossing you a bone- I'd prefer the majority of the gas to go down the railway rather than expand towards the face.

Regardless, if you'd have gotten peppered we could have had a really have a good engaging discussion and perhaps learned something. But good thing you didn't.

I have to disagree with ZR1- ego is the last thing you think about. Actually it never crosses your mind. But if it does it is a good thing because you didn't get hurt.

The initial reaction is that of surprise- stunned with total loss of thought. The WTF moment really freezes your brain- dunno if you felt that also? I actually hit the deer in the ass with the 270/7 Rem and he started running around in a circle as if it were a bee sting. I could have easily reloaded and shot him but I didn't- just froze there til I felt the burn stings. The second one not so traumatic- just felt like an insect bite on the cheek.

To this day every time I go to the range the thought of a blown case crosses my mind...every single time.....and that happened ? 8 or 10 and ? 3-5 years ago.

You guys take this shit waaay too seriously. It's just a fucking rifle. Next time try screwing in the non missionary position.

PS You may wanna post some pics otherwise the truth Nazi may discount your sensationalistic claim or are you a French model?

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Okay, how about, the balance of the expanding gases? Or maybe the remaining gases? Either one sound better to you?

The rifle I was shooting, as I said was a 98 Mauser. Specifically, a 1908 Brazilian DWM, chambered in 7x57 Mauser.

Actually I was tossing you a bone- I'd prefer the majority of the gas to go down the railway rather than expand towards the face.

Regardless, if you'd have gotten peppered we could have had a really have a good engaging discussion and perhaps learned something. But good thing you didn't.

I have to disagree with ZR1- ego is the last thing you think about. Actually it never crosses your mind. But if it does it is a good thing because you didn't get hurt.

The initial reaction is that of surprise- stunned with total loss of thought. The WTF moment really freezes your brain- dunno if you felt that also? I actually hit the deer in the ass with the 270/7 Rem and he started running around in a circle as if it were a bee sting. I could have easily reloaded and shot him but I didn't- just froze there til I felt the burn stings. The second one not so traumatic- just felt like an insect bite on the cheek.

To this day every time I go to the range the thought of a blown case crosses my mind...every single time.....and that happened ? 8 or 10 and ? 3-5 years ago.

You guys take this shit waaay too seriously. It's just a fucking rifle. Next time try screwing in the non missionary position.

PS You may wanna post some pics otherwise the truth Nazi may discount your sensationalistic claim or are you a French model?

Ego?

This is a really interesting statement you make: "I'd prefer the majority of the gas to go down the railway rather than expand towards the face."

Where do you think the end of the left rail leads if not directly toward your face?

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

Where do you think the end of the left rail leads if not directly toward your face?

I should have been clearer- scoped rifles. In my earlier post I said directed towards the chin rather than the orbit.

I agree with you that with the eyes set at the action level the majority of gas blowing out the thumbhole has more of a possibility to be deflected away from the left eye as they are both on the same 2D horizontal plane. Simple geometry as they are both on the same plane- I agree.

Where I disagree is with the eyes set higher up because of the scope, you now have a 3D vertical component to the gas plume to contend with. Does that make any sense? I did get peppered around my left orbit.

Do you see now where I'm coming from? Or do I have to edit my first post and say- the mauser saved me from some really serious eye damage (everybody in chorus- yeah wow, good thing), but I still got peppered guys why is that...is that from the vertical gas plume through the thumb notch?

Or as I have always stated- gas handling is overrated- you can't really control it as there are too many variables and you'll still get peppered???? Or is that along with my fear of a thumbhole just the PTSD kicking in....can't do it.......every time at the range I think about it.....every single fn time...

I'm sorry, can't help my bar room banter.......but I'd really like to know. And why the Hornet got the right cheek?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Well...enough for me! gonna open a beer and shut down AR for a while

If I drank, I would join you!

I somewhat liken the process of gas regularly escaping/venting from a revolvers cylinder gap,
to that of gas that may make its way along the left rail and being re-directed by the M98 shroud flange.

[much easier to find images of revolvers releasing & redirecting gas, than that of an M98 rupturing a case.]


http://i256.photobucket.com/al...relCylinderGap_1.jpg


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...ion_revolver-tfb.jpg


http://www.rc-trucks.org/Shooting-Revolver.jpg


http://vuurwapenblog.com/wp-co...012/06/686flash1.jpg

I think Ed Lapour did a really nice job of filling in this 1909 ...

MOst of the renown manufacturers of new HQ M98 design actions, have tended to produce them mostly with solid left walls.

eg; Prechtl,Ritterbusch,Hartmann Weiss,FZH,Wells,Grisel,GMA.

The premium DG bolt rifles [on new manufacture actions] currently coming from H&H,Purdey,Rigby and Westley Richards,
tend to have solid left wall.


Rifle builders with very sensible & practical minds, like Ralf Martini,Otto Weiss,Jerry Fisher and D'Arcy Echols,
who build rifles for owners who will actually hunt with the rifle,
find no need to add a notch to the left wall, of new commercial M98 actions.

Had Mauser continued manufacturing its latest design of pre-war commercial 98 action,
it would have featured with a solid left wall.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:


Do you see now where I'm coming from? Or do I have to edit my first post and say- the mauser saved me from some really serious eye damage (everybody in chorus- yeah wow, good thing), but I still got peppered guys why is that...is that from the vertical gas plume through the thumb notch?

What are you talking about? You said that is was a Ruger, not a Mauser.

The Ruger does/did not have have a large exit for the gas to escape so it exited out of many small exit routes at very high velocity(the back of the rear bridge, the gap between the top of the left raceway and the bolt).

A Mauser does have a large exit for the gas to escape(the thumb notch) so in the same scenario the that gas would have escaped through the notch and there would have been far less pressure forcing gas and brass out of the top of the raceway and the bridge.

And maybe I am reading you wrong, but you seem to say that the thumb notch is too small to allow that volume of gas to escape at a "safe" velocity. You have to remember that the only gas that makes it to the thumb notch is the gas that has exited down the left raceway. The rest of the gas exits out the right raceway and some heads out between the bolt and the front ring or possibly out through the bolt body(all very short routes).

Paul Mauser claimed that he designed the "thumb notch" to save shooters from exactly what happened to you. Maybe Paul Mauser was wrong about the flow of gas and you are correct, but I'm not too sure.....

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Paul Mauser claimed that he designed the "thumb notch" to save shooters from exactly what happened to you. Maybe Paul Mauser was wrong about the flow of gas and you are correct, but I'm not too sure.....

Maybe you guys are on to something here; That Mauser dude totally designed his guns way back in like the late 1800's! I mean they totally didn't even have like computers and other electronic stuff back then!

So what the fuck did he know? Right?


.

The flange works by redirecting gas, the 2 openings (action and thumb hole) do not redirect gas. I'd just rather as much of the gas be controlled (inasmuch as it can be) and directed towards the flange and minimize the amount to go "unchecked."

After all, the notch was not primarily designed for the manipulation of gas, it was designed to load the magazine. Put a silly looking flange/Gurney flap (for you racers) around the entire rearward notch and I wouldn't have any argument at all.

Regardless, I'd rather have as much of the gas go down the raceway with towards my chin. There is no doubt in my mind had there been an extra "hole" for gas to vent my left face/eye would have gotten it worse.

Two guys said it has the potential to direct gas towards the left eye- I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
The flange works by redirecting gas, the 2 openings (action and thumb hole) do not redirect gas. I'd just rather as much of the gas be controlled (inasmuch as it can be) and directed towards the flange and minimize the amount to go "unchecked."

After all, the notch was not primarily designed for the manipulation of gas, it was designed to load the magazine. Put a silly looking flange/Gurney flap (for you racers) around the entire rearward notch and I wouldn't have any argument at all.

Regardless, I'd rather have as much of the gas go down the raceway with towards my chin. There is no doubt in my mind had there been an extra "hole" for gas to vent my left face/eye would have gotten it worse.

Two guys said it has the potential to direct gas towards the left eye- I agree.

Mauser's patent stated that the notch was to safely release gas in the event of a case rupture.

The M98 has been around long enough that if the thumb notch was a dangerous feature it would be well known by now.

The notch is simply to help load stripper clips into an open sighted Mauser '98. My son uses them on an unmodified VZ24 for culling .... and that is good old fashioned 'bombing up' mobs of feral introduced pets.

Everything else is purely and distantly secondary.

The most ridiculous thing posted here so far is that is reduces stiffness. By how much ? Got some figures for that Cinderella ?

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
The notch is simply to help load stripper clips into an open sighted Mauser '98. My son uses them on an unmodified VZ24 for culling .... and that is good old fashioned 'bombing up' mobs of feral introduced pets.

Everything else is purely and distantly secondary.

The most ridiculous thing posted here so far is that is reduces stiffness. By how much ? Got some figures for that Cinderella ?

Oddly enough, like these instructions say, almost everyone, no, everyone I personally know, loads via stripper clips with the right thumb. I suppose if you are left handed then the thumbcut could be useful for stripping from a stripper clip.

I whole heartedly agree with your comment regarding stiffness. However, that lack of stiffness has not precluded me and many others from building extremely accurate hunting rifles.

It's funny, people ask all the time for proof or documentation, then when presented with it, they simply choose to ignore it.

I'm out, this thread has pretty much hit the point of diminishing returns and is nearing the bottom.

Mauser just wanted to make easier it for the recruits to depress the follower when closing the bolt on an empty magazine. Everything else was nothing but a design accident.

That's about all the bottom I can go.

How low can you go? Lol.

Well,
I think I have one on my Grandson's mod. 600 Remington. I will dig out a photo of it tomorrow. I think we did it was because he thought it looked cool.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
How low can you go? Lol.

I've never heard of Mauser thumb, so maybe that was its' real purpose.

What say yee FMC?

Ive have most often seen where a person will regularly install a clipper strip using only the fingers on right hand.
However, there are also situations I have seen,
where a person will use part of both hands to assist in inserting the stripper clip.
i.e;
- some fingers of the right hand are placed further forward on the top cartridge,
- whilst the thumb of the left hand pushes down [simultanenously] on the rear of the top cartridge,
and henceforth down into the left wall gas port.

So in some circumstances, the patented feature-left wall gas escape port,
can also act as a thumb-slot whilst loading a stripper clip.

This person uses only his left thumb to push the stripper clip down.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trax:
I think Ed Lapour did a really nice job of filling in this 1909 ...

I think I may have seen this one. It is out for rust blue right now.

Trax, that's how I load mine.
Jim, Ed does some really sick stuff sometimes. Ever see the Springfield he did for Elrod? Removed the safety lug on the bolt and square bridged the thing. The cut off was reworked too. I have pics somewhere. Funny removing safety features and the action is still safer than 90% of what is made today. With modern components case ruptures aren't as common as they once where. Personally though, I like the keep all the safety I can in a gun.
Don

This is my MiniMauser.