How do you determine proper length of pull? I plan on replacing the pad on my rifle and the gunsmith inquired if I wanted the stock shortened to keep the current LOP since the new pad will be thicker than the old. Rifle is an Interamrs Mark X in 458WM.

Thanks,

Hizzie

How does the LOP feel now?

It feels OK. I don't really know how it SHOULD feel. My other rifles are AK's and a S&W 15-22 so I don't really have a benchmark to compare it to.

I have a friend who insists on shortening his stocks, and he says they fit him. Apparantly they do, but they don't fit me, with my hand and cheek positioned naturally on the stock. He likes the big bores, like the 458. Usually his rifles don't have scopes, which may be why he can get away with it. Otherwise the eye relief might be too short even for him.

So absent the scope, my main clue that it's too short is the old thumb in the nose. Apparantly I hold my thumb over the pistol grip different that he does, because his rifles get me every time.

But then he is a no-neck timber ape with short arms.

So, that's how I know the stock is too short with a big kicker, but with a light recoiling rifle, you can get away with too short easier.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Hizzie:
It feels OK. I don't really know how it SHOULD feel. My other rifles are AK's and a S&W 15-22 so I don't really have a benchmark to compare it to.

Well, A 458 Win mag is a Dangerous game rifle ,so fast handling(including fast and comfortable bolt cycling from the shoulder) is important. So, the stock should not be too long.

The flip side of that is if the stock is too short, as Kablewy said, your trigger hand could wind up in your eye under recoil. Scope Eye relieve plays into this as well. Best to set the LOP with the scope you will be using in the field.

Really, the same comfortable offhand LOP you would normally take with an eye toward the effects of recoil.

Remember it's easier to take a bit more wood off the back end of the butt later than to try to put it back on..

How nuch longer is the new pad? If it is a inch longer you may need to cut the stock. If you have a long neck you will need more length. 14-14 1/4 is about the max I would go on a rifle. Also take in acount of the clothes you will be wearing like a heavy coat. I have a long length of pull due to my neck. I always have to add length to all my guns. Mount your gun and have someone measure the distance from your nose to your thumb. It should be atleast .5 or more.

This is the rule of thumb I use.

Hold the rifle with your right hand (assuming you are right handed) by the pistol grip with your finger on the trigger (like you would be shooting the rifle). Hold the rifle muzzle up and place the butt of the stock in the "L" your arm makes when your elbow is at 90 degrees. A proper length stock will fit in the crook of your arm. It does not need to be snug, but there should be no space.

My LOP is around 15 3/8" (I am 6-3"). No problems cycling a bolt and the difference in felt recoil is considerable when using a properly fitted stock.

Length of neck, width of chest and shooting style will also have an effect on the most effective lop for an individual. The butt in elbow - hand on pistol grip is a generalisation and generally is a good aproximate guide, as is the 1/8 inch more or less than 13 1/2 inch standard for each inch more or less than a "standard" height of 5 ft 10, but there is more to a well fitted stock than just lop.


Von Gruff.

This is the system which Krieghoff used back in the '70's (and may still use, for all I know). As you can see, it involves a lot more measurements than the trigger finger to inside the elbow measurement, although that system is hallowed by time.

If you have access to a gun club with a skeet range, try shooting a round or two from the "low gun" position (starting with the butt stock touching your hip bone until the target appears). Try it using shotguns of different stock lengths, because with a shotgun, it's the stock which is crucial for hitting the target. At the end of that procedure, you should have a pretty good idea of the stock length which fits you best.

All-thanks for your replies.

xausa,

Thanks for posting the chart. Very cool!

Is there any more documentation discussing what to do with all these measurments?

Once you have all this information how do you translate it into a stock?

Best,
Dave

What they do with the information supplied is evidently regarded by Krieghoff as a trade secret. At any rate, it is protected by a patent, as reflected in the text.

I only offer it as an example of their idea of the factors which go into determining proper stock dimensions.

I never had occasion to use the system myself, since I simply took the stock dimensions obtained by shooting with an adjustable "try-gun" at the Holland & Holland shooting school, and applied them to my double rifle, with perfect satisfaction.

xausa,

Well I wish I knew Krieghoff's secrets...

This stock fitting business sure has a great deal of mystery to it....

Which Holland & Holland did you have the stock fitting done? In London or here in the states?
Could you tell us how H&H went about it?

It's interesting that the shotgun measurements you had taken worked for your double as well.
I thought that they had similarities but, more than a few differences as well...

Best,
Dave

This would have been in the early '70's, when the only Holland & Holland was in New Bond Street in London. They maintained a shooting ground outside of London, easily accessable by train, which was run, if I remember correctly, by an appropriately named man, Rex Gage.

The try-gun was a much used WR boxlock, if memory serves me correctly, articulated and adjustable for length of pull, drop at comb and heel, pitch, and castoff (on). Rex sized me up (I don't remember any measurements being taken), set the try gun to what his experience indicated to him were the correct adjustments, then took me out to a stationary pattern board, where I was asked to mount the gun naturally and instantly shoot at the center of the board.

Some minor adjustments were made to center up my patterns on the board, and then we went out on the "quail walk", where clay birds were released at various angles from traps positioned at various spots along a walk in the woods.

Then we proceeded to the "grouse pit" set up to resemble a grouse pit on a Scottish moor, where the shooter is facing a hillside and the clay birds come over the top of the hill at various angles, sometimes in singles, sometines in apirs.

Finally we went to the "duck tower" wher clay birds were released from the top of a tall tower, to fly directly over the shooter.

At the end of that experience, the measurements were taken off the gun and recorded as correct for a side by side shotgun, and a formula was applied which resulted in a set of measurements for an over and under.

The latter measurements were remarkably similar to those of the stock on my Perazzi skeet gun, which I had been successfully using to shot International Skeet for some time. I was those latter measurements which I used on my Krieghoff over and under double rifle.

This same Krieghoff double rifle was fitted with an extra set of 20 gauge barrels, which I used to shoot skeet and found quite satisfactory. I even tried shooting skeet with the .458 WM barrels, using .410 shot shells. I was never called upon to use the skills I acquired with the double rifle barrels on moving game in the field, but I am confident I could have, had the need arisen. I accounted for quite a number of teal, sand grouse and guinea fowl with the shot barrels, however.