I picked up a BRNO 21 in 8x57 with claw mounts on it a while back to play around with a bit and to have as a potential donor to build off of one day. I have had a desire for a 7x64 for a while so I have been considering building something along those lines. This is still very much in the conceptual stages, but have been pondering having the metal nitrided and then having a wood stock carved and keep it plain. Not a fancy grain or finish. Keep the money spent on having it well made. Somewhat similar in concept to the current Mauser and Rigby rifles. Nicer looking than a stainless and synthetic project, but still with a mind towards weather and use resistance. I figure it will look nicer as it is used and gets some using wear on it.

So my question is two part. First, how sacrilegious is this concept as a whole? And two, can the current claw mounts be reutilized and if they can, is it worth it? My thought was take the feet from the scope currently on the rifle and attach them to another scope maybe? Not familiar enough with claw mounts to know if this possible. Putting up some photos of the mounts. Can get other pictures if needed.

Given that you have the complete rifle with scope LEAVE IT ALONE. If you wish different scope arrangement sell it off and buy a BRNO without scope.

The scope on it now is a low magnification scope of Eastern European origin. The mounts are very high with a see through setup. Not my ideal optics arrangement. Especially given the point of claw mounts is you can quickly remove a scope to use irons if desired and replace it with little to no POI shift. So see through rings seem counter productive with little benefit.

I do like the claw mount, I just think there is a more ideal set up. Also, someone made the unfortunate choice to put a recoil pad on the stock. I love the model 21 stock, but this one will need some love to rehab it for what I have in mind.

IF you have a BRNO 21 in 7x64 that you are offering up for a trade, I would love to discuss it with you, but finding one in the US is not easy.

There is one currently on Gunbroker.

A BRNO 21 in 7x64? I see a BRNO 21 in 8x57 and a ZKK 600 in 7x64, but that is it? I do not see a 21 in 7x64 on gunbroker.

You are correct, it is a ZKK600

I am told that the dovetailed ring may be an issue with any poof in Europe...

I think my sources are pretty reliable, but invite comment

Just something to consider

The dovetail has alredy been done, so you might be best to live with it and have lower hardware fitted up

I'm guessing the scope you have is cloudy as many of those old scopes usually are.
This link my help correct it if that is the case.
www.vintagegunscopes.com
8x57 is a good round. If you have not worked with the 8x57 now is your chance.
I picked up a couple boxes of PPU 200gr pointed soft points for a 8x57 build I did in '22 which shot under an inch at 100yds out of a stainless Lothar Walther barrel, plumb happy with that at $36.00 a box. Also shot some Romanian surplus that went in right at 1/2 MOA, surprising.

Mr. Wiebe, I’m not sure I’m following your comment very well. The “dovetailed ring may be an issue with any poof in Europe”.

Mr. Satterlee, I have used this rifle a little bit. It has actually done pretty well with just a box of Winchester power points. That Model 21 stock just points so naturally and fast for me. If my memory is correct I jumped up one set of pigs with it and killed two. Maybe I need to give 8x57 more of a chance.
Do you think the scope mounts can be lowered using the same material that’s there? If the rings can be brought down and that company you linked can clean up the glass, that could be a fun vintage setup. Would still need the recoil pad replaced as the one on it isn’t very well fitted and sticks to the floor of my safe. Also, think the bolt handle would likely need to be replaced if scope is lowered. Probably would be better with a model 70 trigger like yours or the Alaskan arms instead of the double set.

Duane Wiebe was referring to the dove tail slots that have been cut into the receiver ring, on a small ring Mauser, this compromises the strength of the action considerably, I would personally recommend not purchasing the rifle for that reason.

I remember reading long ago a warning about some of the European gunsmiths getting a bit carried away with their dovetails and that they were deep enough to compromise the strength of the action. There should be a better way to install that front base.
C.G.B.

Unfortunately it’s a rifle I’ve had for a few years now. So how significant an issue would this be? It sounds like I would be better off to sell than try to build anything I intend to shoot higher pressure off of it.

The placement of your dovetail is further back that usual. I suggest it's simply not a "proper" installaion...if indeed any location is proper.

The value of the action? I think knowing buyers would not touch it except for salvage value of parts. Proof loads would tell a lot, but hard to come by in the US

Too bad.. 21's are highly regarded

I appreciate the information, even if it is far from the answers I was seeking and hoping for.

I guess I can start looking towards doing something with the 1909 action I just picked up.

Ive been a collector of Brno mod 21 and 22s for many years, have probably owned 40 or so of them, the best commercial rifle ever built, the mauser double square bridge small ring or round top. I would remove the claw mount in your case and perhaps redo the metal with a tig weld if needed, it collector value has already been soiled, but a proper restore would regain its value..I built a take down mod 21 with interchangeable barrels at one time, customized it and sold it for big bucks...I could not make heads or tails of your gun as the pics were oversized...BTW the 8x57 is a great caliber and elk perfect with a 160 gr. TTSX, the long throat on the 06 magazine and throat is all but a 8x57 Ackley IMP ballistically. I had a rough one that I punched out to 8x57 Ackley, 8mm/06 then to a 8x60 and finally to a 8mm/o6 Ackley IMP. I was fond of the 8mm/06 Ackely IMP, it was the proverbial hammer..brass is available but can easily be made from 06, 280, etc..Just a great option any way you look at it..

At the time I did not know it weakened the action, and shot several with claw mounts and one I had for several years and never a problem with any of them..I learned later of the actions inplied strength when dovetailed and would never used another one, but I have to question if its proven or guess and by gosh? I do wonder who is right since they all got shot a lot and lots of them with claw mounts?? and never heard of one blowing up or even developing head space??

1. When you post a picture, use large thumbnail size. All I see is fuzz. You are on Huge Thumbnail.
2. Whilst dovetailing a receiver ring for a mount is not ideal, it is fine for 8x57 loads; don't try to hot rod it. Definitely don't try to "proof test" it. Many German gunsmiths put claw mounts in that way though and they pass German proof test.
3. Definitely do NOT weld it up; that would end up costing more than it's worth; welding, grinding, re checkering and re engraving ring, heat treatment. Cost for all that: $1875..
4. No, the mounts can't be lowered. Either use it as is, or sell it and buy another one.
5. No, the mounts can't be installed on another scope, unless it is steel, and it requires disassembly to solder the rings back on.
6. If you don't like the 8x57, or don't like the mounting system, sell it; someone else will like it as is.

Speed's book show many examples of dovetailed rings..Every photo that I've found, the dovetail is centered on the ring (fore and aft)'

Such a position conserves some of the material ahead of the top lug recess.

The M21 shown is dovetailed way aft of center. It;s reasonable to believe that top lug is compromised..I think seriously.

It will be fine for an 8mm. Just don't chamber it for a 300 Mag. I think seriously. These are made from modern steel; not talking about slipshod case hardened 1018 steel here.

Keechi-Brno collectors highly value a Brno with factory installed claw mount and scope which yours surely is.Sell yours off and buy one not set up for scope and you will come out ahead.

I have been busy this week and not checking forums as regularly as is typical for me. Interesting comments here. I guess I should just list it for sale. Not sure that I have much familiarity with the scope set up to say if it is a factory mount. What would be the way to tell that and what would be the value of that? The scope is certainly usable as it is. I have killed some pigs with it.

I have seen ones like yours before, also ones that have the front DT farther to the center of the ring.
I think yours is original. It will sell easily.

Updated.

Why sell it? It definitely is in nice shape and may not be the ultimate choice for a 21 or 22 like a dovetail bridge version is, it's still a crisp & clean early small ring Brno sporter.
Good luck finding one in 7X64. Only saw a couple over the last decade or so in 21H. But, I'm only one guy. Never give up. I spent two years looking for a Grisel square bridge small ring rifle. Paid the guys' price ($4500). Be ready to pounce.

Forgot I had this. A sectioned small ring 98 with large thread. Shown with Suhler (claw) mount dovetail. Even when dovetailed about half depth, still gets pretty thin in front ot the lug recess.

I always make a screw on base, then install the dovetail foot. I'm aware the somewhere in Speeds Books a reference is made to the safety of a dovetailed receiver and was apparently thought OK to do so way back then IF INSTALLED PROPERLY.....Not sure if or how that was defined.

Are all 98 small rings created equal Duane? Is this one a Brno 21-22 or some other small ring 98? The one pictured has the barrel threads & lug cuts centered a bit high from center. Interesting. Thanks. CB

Well.....I don't know Was the top ground down? Could be, there must have been some reason I decided not to try and salvage the action. The ourtside shows no evidence of modificaion

Never had much enthusiam for the small ring large thread configuration anyway.

This action was a misurp I'd never cut up a 21.

That cutaway is from either a KAR 98, or K98; the first of which is a German small ring, and the second is Polish small ring, both short rifles.
His pictures typical of the breed. They aren't for magnums, nor for hotrodding hand loads.
It is not the BRNO 21 either; those are post WW2 and made from better steels. NO small ring 98 should have a DT in the ring.
BRNO did it plenty of times, successfully. And Yes, farther back. But their metallurgy is much better than a WW1 Mauser.
As for a BRNO 7x64; got one in here now. Putting a Model 70 bolt shroud on it.

If what I see in the photo the rear sight is dovetailed into the barrel!! Not so in a mod 21 or 22 in that the rear sight is in a sleeve that is soldered to the barrrel as is the front sight, very well done but will show in the front sight in a strong light or sunshine..In which case the rifle is a G33-40 or Mod 35 German customs issue G33-40, but some Brnos were on Mod 35 ( I think 35) and they are rare and sought after at premium prices..correct me if Im wrong.

BTW the original checkered and framed bolt of a 21 is quite nice and can be cut off and tigged back on and is plumb neat and scope friendly..and looks like it belongs there if done properly..
I had a brno 8x57 with the dovetail cut for claw mounts at one time..the dovetail was on the shallow side, I had it filled and tigged and a front custom talley base that covered the whole mess. It shot well, after being converted to the 8mm/06 with max loads for years later gave it up for a neat 250-3000 FN...maybe I got lucky but I never saw any signs of weakness??

No small ring should be chambered for a belted magnum cartridge, they developed headspace and will almost surely come apart from one degree to another..Ive seen two that did some years ago and weatherby had to drop the LR Mauser and design his own action. He told me that he had some problems with the Mausers without being specific?? yet there are many magnums out there on Mauser actions, Im not concerned about a lR and belted case..

quote:

In which case the rifle is a G33-40 or Mod 35 German customs issue G33-40, but some Brnos were on Mod 35 ( I think 35) and they are rare and sought after at premium prices..correct me if Im wrong.

Maybe thats VZ-33 your thinking of?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If what I see in the photo the rear sight is dovetailed into the barrel!! Not so in a mod 21 or 22 in that the rear sight is in a sleeve that is soldered to the barrrel as is the front sight, very well done but will show in the front sight in a strong light or sunshine..In which case the rifle is a G33-40 or Mod 35 German customs issue G33-40, but some Brnos were on Mod 35 ( I think 35) and they are rare and sought after at premium prices..correct me if Im wrong.

Ray, looks like a banded rear sight base on a Mod 21 to me.

All rear sights on a 21 or 22 Brnos have a sleeve solder to the barrel the sleeve has the sight base as part of the sleeve and a dove tail for the rear sight. The sleeve begins at the front ring..the front ramp is also sleeved on a turned down portion of crown area and soldered on, hard to see but in sunlight or add a drop of gasoline to that area and you can see it in the rear of the base and the crown itself as you look into the barrel from the crown..

The mod 35 Mauser I refer to was a small ring G33-40 carbine issued only to the German Customs Service.strictly military rifle and rare has hens teeth..Im pretty sure it was a mod 35 or close. I had a couple some years ago..Some early Brnos were produced with this action in rond top only..That would have beed shortly after the war, and Brno was turned back over to its rightful owners..It was a mauser production co for the German war effort and not by choice apparently.

No sir not a vz33, thats a different dog..