Is there a "best" Mauser action to use for a custom rifle?

Wink, I predict this thread will be getting some action!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Wink, I predict this thread will be getting some action!

I forgot to ask if someone has one for me.

1950's era FN commercial ones, IMHO...

I think a lot depends n the cartridge it is chambered for. I don't think Rich's 1950 FN action is the best for building a heavy rifle in .458 Lott. Neither do I think Prechtl's M98 "standard" action is the best for a building a light rifle in .243 Winchester.

you won't go wrong using a VZ-24.....excellent guns.

Has got to be the Turkish LR/ST

I have to say that I pretty much totally agree with what DPCD is voicing here, there is no across the board "best".

Personally, I like to have a "theme" for a rifle. As an example, on my short list for a build will be a 375 H&H, and done in a classic pre-war English style (think Rigby). I don't know what the action will be yet, I'll know it when I see it but the only thing I do know is that it will be a pre WW2 action. (right now I am leaning towards a Remington 30 but nothing cast in stone).

Anyway, so my meager suggestion is that when you are mentally designing your new rifle think if the type/model of action might be important to blend with the rifle and if not that important to you then choose an action based on individual merit such as condition.

Well, dpcd, if cartridges are irrelevant I have to say the Loewe made model 1895 has always been a favorite of mine. Workmanship is excellent on every one I've seen and they function smoothly and reliably. I don't mind that they cock-on-closing but that is easily fixed. Not having to go through a dealer to get one is also a nice plus.

If memory serves me right there were about 37,000 Loewe and DWM model 1895 Mausers in 7x57mm purchased by the Boer's. No doubt many of those stayed in service long after the wars and were used on countless heads of game. Perhaps that is part of the reason Mausers and the 7x57mm cartridge have long been considered African hunting staples.

Grenadier,

maybe, but mine is in 375 H&H improved, and it seems to feed and eject just fine. I would be a very happy camper to walk out to to my gunroom and find a dozen or so still in the wrapper.

I stand by my post...

ISS, don't get me wrong. I am not knocking the FN commercial Mauser at all. I think they are great actions. In fact I just picked up a H&H length FN Supreme action in the white. I was simply saying I don't think there is one universal "best" Mauser action and that caliber helps determine the best action for that caliber.

dpcd,

no argument there, I just consider the total commitment/cost to building a nice custom rifle in the equation.

What would you have to charge a customer, any of you gunsmiths; to take any military action and turn it into the build ready equivalent of the commercial FN?

1. Mill the charger slot
2. Mill the "hump".
3. Drill and tap four scope mounting holes.
4. Replace the bolt handle.
5. Clean up all the pitting on the action.
6. Delivery time, perhaps six months for all of the above? Then the actual rifle build can start.

Unless time and expense are of no consideration, I see no reason to choose a military action over a commercial one.

As always, just my humble opinion...

Perhaps the older commercial rifles are better than the modern rifles built to a price point but custom rifles built today are the finest ever made.

Of the '95s, I personally like the Chilean model, but as with the rest of this discussion, that is just one man's opinion.

Wink, what caliber is your custom rifle to be?

Sorry, it DOES come back to that.

Oh well here goes, just my opinion of course.
#1 - Oberndorf Commercial
#2 - FN Supreme 400 LR/SR
#3 - Brno 22, the one with the bridges
after that pretty much any 98 depending on how much time and money you have. Of course your choice of calibre again how much time and money do you have to make it work. FWIW --- John

Probably FZH, maybe Mayfair Engineering or Hartman & Weiss

dpcd,

I think, unless you just hit the lottery, cost has to be factored into "best".

Out of the box, still the commercial FNs.

I also like the GEWEHRs. Especially since the one sitting on a shelf in my gun room is color case hardened, fully engraved, and has DSTs.

We understand that the LA Ferrari is likely the best sports car in the world, but at five-million dollars best is a relative term.
If you cannot afford whatever it is that is deemed "the best" we are just jousting with semantics and opinions.

I'll vote for the commercial FN Supreme with the Sako trigger. As said above, much of the cost-consuming work that would have to be done to a military action has already been done to the Supreme. I, too, would like to stumble across a stack of them at a suburban garage sale.

I absolutely love Mauser actions, but am far from being an expert on them. You could study them for a lifetime and still not know every variation made. The Gunmakers I have talked with all differ in their opinion. This is proof to me that there is no "Best" Mauser action. Mauser actions are used by Top tier craftsmen to create works of art.....and by some absolute hacks that ruin good actions .

Most would agree that the commercial actions such as the Interarms Mark X, J.C. Higgins model 50, FN, and Husqvarna are very good. They are standard length, large ring, large thread actions. They can be found for good prices, and require less work to build a nice sporter than a military action. These actions are usually well polished on the outside, have been drilled and tapped for scope bases, have a low bolt handle for scope clearance, and a bolt face set up for 30-06 based cartridges or belted magnums. These actions also lack the thumb cut, charger hump and stripper clip slot of Military actions. Some prefer this because the hump is often ground off a military action and the stipper clip slot covered by scope mounts. Of these I like the commercial small ring Husqvarna action the best.

The military actions require more work to build. In my opinion they are better suited to open sight style rifles. The thumb cut, stripper clip slot and charger hump are useful on a open sight rifle, but useless on a scoped rifle. For a nice open sight stalking rifle go for a GEW 98 with the Oberndorf script on the front ring or a Standard Modell with the Mauser banner on the front ring. The 1909 Peruvian is also good because it has interesting markings and a unique extra tall charger hump and bolt release. Never, ever grind this off for scope mounts because it cannot be put back again . For a Military action that will wear a scope the VZ 24, 1909 Argentine and 1908 Brazilian DWM are excellent. The G33/40 is a prize because of its lighter weight. The Mexican actions are desirable for the small ring and intermediate length, but usually found in rough shape. Military mausers will often require polishing or surface grinding to remove pitting and blemishes. Please do not tear down a good Military rifle in original condition to build a sporter. There are plenty of Actions floating around to pick up.


The ultimate Mausers are probably the new actions made by Granite Mountain arms and others. They can be ordered in whatever configuration you want and are brand new. But like I said to start with, there is no "best" Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Wink, what caliber is your custom rifle to be?

Sorry, it DOES come back to that.

Let's say 375 H&H, just to keep the information coming.

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
Probably FZH, maybe Mayfair Engineering or Hartman & Weiss

But not Granite Mountain or Satterlee?

In order...

Custom:
Hartman & Weisss, Prechtl, FZH, Satterlee, Mayfair, Granite Mountain.. top top tier.

Factory/Commercial:
Oberndorf, BRNO ZG-47, BRNO 21/22, FNs, Sako, Husqvarna, Mark X, Interarms, Zastava...

Military:
To diverse to tell.. I would rather go with a commercial action before a military one.



My favorite of the commercials, are the BRNO ZG-47. Its got it all ( except onepiece bottom metal ).. C-ring, Square bridge for mounting optics, nice trigger, bolt handle that clears scopes, nice safety.. a perfect hunting action. I have 3 of them!

One is getting a face-lift in a few months, and the two others will recive all the bells and whistels when the house is paid off.


I am also getting a Sako Hi-power M98 in 270Win, which I have not seen or tried before. But from what I have read, its a nicely done rifle, by Sako on FNs Mauser action.

Just for the chuckles and you didn't say 98 "style", so have a look at a 71/84 for its almost Luger like fit and finish. Amazing "old" guns.
--- John

From Roger Green's website:

"Feinmechanische Zerspanungs GmbH manufactures a near copy of the Original Oberndorf Mauser Double Square Bridged actions. These actions are very similar in design and finish as those provided by the famed Hartmann and Weiss Company of Hamburg, Germany. Actions are available in 3 sizes for the right and left handed shooter. FZH actions come complete with all newly manufactured parts, bottom metal, 3-position model 70 styled safety and without a trigger. Long Magnum length action accommodates cartridges like 505 Gibbs, 450&416 Rigby, *460/375 Wby, 404 Jeffery, *340/300 Wby, 375/300 H&H. The standard length action accommodates cartridges like 458 Win Mag, 300 Win Mag, 30/06, and 7X57. Short size actions are designed for cartridges like the 300 WSM, 284 Win, 308 Win and 22-250. Optional by *special order, single square bridge, take-down system, integral scope mounting systems and other custom features. FZH actions are designed for the professional gunmaker who is familiar with final fitting and finishing. Case hardening or color case hardening of the action/bolt and all stress parts is necessary prior to live firing.
Extra depth magazine boxes are standard on Long Magnum actions. Optional are standard depth magazine boxes: Standard and short actions come with standard depth magazine boxes. Actions can be ordered without bottom metal, follower, follower spring and action screws: Deduct: $500.00"


A couple of "top tier" gunmakers have commented here and to me personally that FZH is the best if you are looking for the pre-war design. They have some minor differences, like a narrower firing pin to better handle modern magnum pressures, but all for the good. You can get a thumb cut, stripper clip slot, and a Mauser type safety as well. Roger Green told me that FZH makes Hartman and Weiss' actions for them and has done so for several years.

I have no doubt that Granite Mountain makes very fine, precisely made actions. However, they are a bit portly. While some view this as a good thing, I just like the straight Pre-war design, and feel Mauser got it right before WWII. A GMA would be a better choice for anything larger than a 416/450 Rigby.

As far as "Standard" size mil-surprise actions go, if Holland & Holland and D'Arcy Echols choose to use rehardened 1909 DWM actions, I need look no further. VZ-24's can be very well made and often need no hardening, even for magnum pressure rounds, but a 1909 seems like the Bee's knees to me. In the span of Oberndorf commercial production, hardness, machining quality, and finish quality is all over the place, so you just have to be particular when choosing an Oberndorf action. Rational or not, the Oberndor provenance on the left wall of an action does make me smile!
Matt

You never go wrong with swedish Husqvarna m98 action; they are always well finished and accept any caliber pressures you could fit to m98 action.

I believe the best action for a .375 H&H cartridge is a true magnum action. Yes, standard actions were opened up for years by the world's best gunmakers but that was only because of a shortage of true magnum actions. Today magnum actions are available from multiple sources and those same world's best gunmakers are using them instead of opening up standard actions.

A magnum Mauser action does not need to have the magazine box extended or the feed ramp shortened. A true magnum action will also have a deeper magazine that will hold more magnum cartridges than you can put into a standard Mauser box. A true magnum action is better suited to the .375 H&H cartridge than any standard action that must be ground out and fitted with a magazine box that has been cut, patched and welded.

My knowledge of the various modern magnum actions is very limited so, at this point, I will defer to those more knowledgeable to recommend which is best among them.

If you are going with a true Magnum action, I think its wasted on a 375H&H!

To large for that caliber.. better use a 458 Lott or 450 Rigby.

Nortman,

might want to research that a little before posting. The 458 Lott uses the exact same case as the 375 H&H, and the same length +/- magazine.

That said: my 375 H&H Improved is on a magnum length FN commercial action. All the gunsmith did was screw a barrel on, chamber and headspace, and stock it.

Simple is better.

The Mauser actions Roger is offering are gorgeous. They, however, do have one issue I have trouble with: plan on $4000 or more to have one shipped to your FFL holder. He has just shipped my Wesson #1 Long Range action back after fitting, chambering, and headspacing the tapered octagon barrel in .450-400 Nitro Express 3 1/4" cartridge. He tells me that the extractor is a real pain to fit properly.

If, I ever hit the lottery, I do plan on ordering about six, and booking him for about a year. His work is T-H-A-T good.

Idaho: What I meant was, its to heavy/large for the 375H&H. In a 458 Lott or 450 Rigby, its mass would help with recoil.


Either way, I would rather have a 458WM in a "ordinary" M98 action.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

That said: my 375 H&H Improved is on a magnum length FN commercial action..

You have a true magnum length FN M98?...I seriously doubt it.

FN factory 'magnum' actions , are nothing but the STD FN-M98 factory altered to handle the long magnums.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
We understand that the LA Ferrari is likely the best sports car in the world,
but at five-million dollars...

$5mil..?...The production number of 499 La Ferraris, were sold by Ferrari at $1.4 million a piece.
yet ITs still some seconds slower than the $550,000 less expensive & less powerful ($850k)Porsche 918....

Even the ultra limited La Ferrari FXX-K (12 made - and only for track use), was much short of $5mil,
...at $3 million a piece.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:


What would you have to charge a customer, any of you gunsmiths; to take any military action and turn it into the build ready equivalent of the commercial FN?

1. Mill the charger slot
Depending on what the customer desires, the slot can stay much as it is.

2. Mill the "hump".
Once again, depending on what the customer wants,the orig. hump can stay as it is.

3. Drill and tap four scope mounting holes.
I would want my smith to precisely drill & tap to 8/40, so FN factor holes mean nothing to me.

4. Replace the bolt handle.
I don't like the agricultural FN bolt handle so it would need replacing anyway.

5. Clean up all the pitting on the action.
1909 Arg. and 1908 brazilian actions Ive had were simply superb, no pitting on the orig. donor actions.

6. Delivery time, perhaps six months for all of the above? Then the actual rifle build can start.
For a top-flight precision metalwork custom, FNs would still require extensive grinding & truing just like a military M98,
possibly even RE-Heat Treat.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I believe the best action for a .375 H&H cartridge is a true magnum action.
Yes, standard actions were opened up for years by the world's best gunmakers but that was only because of a shortage of true magnum actions.
Today magnum actions are available from multiple sources and those same world's best gunmakers are using them instead of opening up standard actions.

Yep, todays gunmakers are fortunate they do not have compromise on action size
like they did in the post-war decades that magnum mausers were scarce.

If that is true, what is the Model D action?

My FN came out of the factory box with a 3.6" magazine, four rounds of 375 H&H fit in it, and it had a magnum bolt face and follower. It also had a beautiful blue finish

I know you are pretty much infallible in such matters, but if FN marks the box "Magnum Model D" then I am going to take their word for it.

As I said, my FN just needed a 375 barrel screwed on, fit, chambered, and headspaced; and fitted to the stock. I shot it two days later.

You simply cannot have it both ways, either the military actions need a total (read expensive and long wait) rework to make a 375-length Magnum rifle out of or it does not.

You may also spend a lengthy time period finding a gunsmith the caliber of Jim Kobe, or Tip Burns, or Duane Wiebe who wants to put his name on an unmodified military action build.

Either the FN Commercial Model D Magnum, as defined by FN needs a barrel and a stock and is ready to be shot, or not.

I do not believe that any surplus action will ever have the cache that an FN commercial does when used as the basis for a fine custom rifle.

OOPS: almost forgot, add finding the appropriate follower, and add that cost in on the military surplus action.

If the Brownells catalog estimates are correct, those five steps, plus bluing to a military action, parts and labor; add close to a thousand dollars to your cheap project action. And, likely six months to two years wait.

I paid less than $700 for my FN, and walked out the door of the local sporting goods store.

Rich,

I have a factory made long magnum FN Mauser action in the white.


But as you can see, the factory just opened up the standard action for long H&H cartridges:




They used these actions for the .375 H&H cartridge but I think the action is a little on the light side for that. I believe they are just right for the .300 H&H. In fact, I am awaiting arrival of a .308" barrel for this action and then it will go off to become a .300 H&H.

If you have a long magnum FN action that does not have the modifications shown above then I would really like to see it. It would be interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

My FN came out of the factory box with a 3.6" magazine, four rounds of 375 H&H fit in it,
and it had a magnum bolt face and follower.

I REPEAT: Your rifle is a factory altered FN std. length M98, it is not a true magnum length receiver.

Due to the factory mods to accept the H&H, FN then designated it as a 'magnum' version (of it std.length M98)

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
..if FN marks the box "Magnum Model D" then I am going to take their word for it.

its a specific box to suit the std.length M98 that FN modified for the magnum chambering.

it was NOT a box, it was a complete action, and catalogs from the late fifties on call it a magnum action...

Nothing you can say makes it otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
.. it was a complete action, and catalogs from the late fifties on call it a magnum action...

FN marketed it as a 'magnum' action, due to the modifications it made to its Std.length M98 to suit the H&H chamberings.
however, its NOT a true magnum mauser external length action.

FN used the same std.M98 length commercial action:
-for rounds like 257r and 300sav. they used a magazine block and shortened follower
-for rounds like .300HH,.375HH,... they removed some of the feed ramp.

a smith can suitably modify a 1909 or FN .30/06 to accept a std. length magnum or long magnum cartridge.
and one could then rightfully also call either of those a magnum suitable action.
but DONT confuse that with a [physically longer] genuine magnum mauser length action, like Rigby orig.
contracted from Oberndorf.

It has to be the Winchester Model 70 Classic Action

For what was probably asked I agree the 50's FN's provided you don't need to open it up too much for a really big case.

ISS - Perhaps the D represented Deluxe. There were some slight differences between the Supreme and the Deluxe.

Regardless, these are the various FN commercial action types. I have made this extract from Frank de Haas' book "Bolt Action Rifles". You can read a fuller, complete description in the book. The action in the pictures I posted above is the FN number 5 "magnum" action.