Hello Gentlemen,

after a while of saving and preparation I'm taking some steps ahead to realize my project to order a custom bolt action rifle (mauser style). Although we have in Germany some really outstanding rifle makers e.g. Theo Jung or Mr. Ritterbusch I would like prefer to place an order with one of the old English rifle makers. From my point of view they offer an edge of elegance and style to the mentioned German manufacturers. I did some research in the past on this subject, but I'm got not all the desired information. Therefore I would like to ask you how you would rate the following manufacturers

1. H&H
2. Westley Richards
3. Jeffrey
4. Rigby
5. Purdey

I was surprised that Purdey builds bolt action rilfes, but they really do.
At the moment my favorite in terms of style and prize-quality-relation is Westley Richards. Maybe you have other ideas - please let me know.

It all depends on the caliber imo.
I would order a 375 from H&H(if I could afford it...) and a 404 from Jeffery!

M

If I today should have a Mauser actioned sportingrifle made up to resemble in the 1900s English style I would really consider this guy here: http://smithson-gunmaker.com/
He has actually done a true copy of a 400/350Rigby. I have seen it here on the net and as I have one(original) I couldn`t tell much difference if anything at all.
I have seen some of the Mauser sportingrifles made in the later years og British make and most of them won`t get close to their forfathers work.

If I were making the decision, I think I would choose Westley Richards of the makers you have listed.
They seem to have retained all of the style of their classic rifles - even better now maybe than back in the early 20th century.
I agree though that the choice of a propritary cartridge would then sway me more in favor of that maker. .300/.375 to H&H, 333, 500 or 404 to Jeffery, 318 or 425 to Westley and 416 to Rigby etc.
I suppose when built tom your specification, there would probably not be much between them.

I have owned a lot of English guns through the years. That said I would stay in Germany and go to Hartmann & Weiss. I would import a custom from Ralf Martini as a second option. My humble opinion is English bolt guns are enormously over priced.

Darn fine sporting arms come out of England..no doubt about it. I had an experience with one of your listed candidates as I helped import a s/s 375 and a bolt 375.

The s/s was a work of art. The bolt gun was really a piece of crap and had to be returned for restocking. Stock was split upon delivery...inleting horrible....second stock not much better but didn't split!

I don't think they had their hearts in the bolt gun!

DONT DO IT!!!for 1/2 the money you will get at least 2Xs the new gun quality from one of the above US smiths(there are others).If you have unlimited funds& your ego can stand the embarassment to your friends,go for a new English bolt gun!

I currently have guns made by H&H, Jeffrey, and Rigby. I have handled several guns made by Westley-Richards but I haven't owned any. I have only seen a few Purdeys but never had the chance to examine any closely.

I think you would be very pleased to own a bolt rifle from any one of them. However, you said "place an order". I believe that rules out Rigby. The new Rigby is not the old Rigby and only the old Rigby is a London gun. Jeffery is still in business under Paul Roberts. Roberts is a former chairman of Rigby before it went out of business. Some describe him as "Britain's most experienced rifle-maker". The WJ Jeffrey & Co (J Roberts) is a bit of an enigma to me. Undoubtedly, you could order a proper rifle from them and be very pleased with it but I don't know if it will hold its value like an H&H, Purdey, or Westley-Richards. I also wonder if the company will be around in several years to undertake repairs and alterations under the maker's name or whether it will go the way of Rigby. So, to my way of thinking, of the great old makers you listed, only Holland & Holland, Westley-Richards, and Purdey remain.

Though there is nothing wrong with a Westley-Richards rifle in .300H&H or a Holland & Holland rifle in .318 WR, I tend to agree with those above who say that certain calibers are best in their original maker's guns. So, an H&H in 300, 375, 400, or 465 and a WR in 318, 425, or 476 and a Purdey in..... well, hmmm. Though Purdey's impeccable reputation surely includes their bolt rifles, I've always associated Purdey with shotguns and double rifles.

I believe that to choose between Holland & Holland and Westley-Richards for a maker of a "bespoke" bolt rifle comes down to a matter of personal preference. Each has its distinctive style. I prefer the Holland & Holland style. After owning a few H&H guns and rifles I decided to order a single shot rifle and a Paradox gun from them. If I were to order a magazine rifle (bolt rifle) it would come with the Holland & Holland address on the barrel. But again, that is just my personal preference and I consider Westley-Richards' bolt rifle in the same class.

quote:

Originally posted by KimR:
DONT DO IT!!!for 1/2 the money you will get at least 2Xs the new gun quality from one of the above US smiths(there are others).If you have unlimited funds& your ego can stand the embarassment to your friends,go for a new English bolt gun!

I don't agree. I think for 1/2 the money you can get 85% of a proper London gun from a US smith, for 75% of the money you can get 90% of a proper London gun. That last 10% does come at a premium price. If you want the best you have to pay for it whether it is made in the USA or overseas.

If you order a rifle from one of the top British makers, for example, the action is barreled by a man who's specialty is to barrel rifles. The stock is made by a man who's specialty is to stock rifles. The rifle is shot and the sights filed in by another specialist, the engraving done by an engraving specialist, and so forth. Also, don't forget, in the UK the gun goes to a proof house.

Now, consider that a US made gun will most always be made by one or occasionally two persons. Those gunsmiths may be great all-around craftsmen but they cannot compete with a team of specialists. The only way to get a team of specialists in the US is to order specific work from specific gunsmiths and have the rifle travel around the country from one smith to the next. So the metal is done by one guy who sends it off to be stocked, who sends it off to be engraved, who sends it off to be blued, etc. But in this situation, each time these guys get a gun it is very different from the previous gun and they don't build the familiarity of product and work that in-house workmen do. This method is also more expensive than using a single gunsmith and the "for only 1/2 price" idea goes out the window. Lastly, US guns are not subjected to formalized and regulated proofing.

Now do not, for one minute, assume that I am belittling US gunsmiths. I am not. We have some of the greatest gun craftsmen in the world. You can have a wonderful rifle built here for a reasonable price. Nevertheless, what I said about the cost of the last 10-15% still goes and we don't have any factories set up to do it the way the top British firms do it.

That's the single thing I abhor about forums about guns. The utter unshakeable belief that no one can compete with the skill of the English and that one man cannot do everything on a rifle. I believe there are untold numbers of American gunsmiths who have this skill in spades. I presently have a rifle built by an American gunsmith that is easily the quality of any best gun produced and it was done by a single smith. I'm not speaking of style as that is a matter of taste but about the pure mechanics of the rifle,the action,the barrel fitting and the stock. What exactly is perfect inletting and what is perfect barreling? I am speaking of bolt guns and not doubles as we don't have many American builders of doubles. While I have never handled any of his work but I would think Bailey Bradshaw who posts on here is a fairly skilled gunsmith at ALL aspects of the trade including engraving and he even makes doubles. I just get overly tired of the put down of American gunsmithing skill.

No one was putting down American gun making skill but it seems some people are just too eager to take such discussions that way. I do not think any one US gunsmith can produce the overall quality of work that a team of British specialists can but I also believe that no one British gunsmith can either. It is not reasonable to claim that a man who spends only part of his time making stocks has the experience of one who, for several years, has as his full-time job, making stocks. Nor for that one gunsmith who divides his time among all tasks to have the experience of a dedicated engraver, actioner, barreler, and so forth. It does not mean that a fine gun cannot be built by the single gunsmith. Many very, very fine guns are so built. But, good as the jack of all tasks may be, and even though he be the master of some, he simply cannot be the master of all.

Not in order of quality but Bradshaw, Wiebe,Smithson,Satterlee,Mandarino,Fisher will easily lap at least once the quality of any English bolt gun.Any English bolt gun not named up with one of the above makers wouldnt draw a second glance.English gunmaking allure was founded on their guns&double rifles not restocked Mauser barelled actions with factory triggers and scope mounts designed by children.Sadly the Italians have siezed the gun niche.Go ahead&pay the big bucks just expect disappointment.

Grenadier,

Name ONE Landon gun firm (ANY of them) that currently builds (or has EVER built) a true best quality bolt rifle on an action of THEIR OWN complete design and manufacturer and then get back to me.

They have always used actions built by someone else.

And I will tell you this, you damn sure have never examined a bolt rifle built by Monte Mandarino. It literally WOULD take a TEAM of British gunsmiths to equal what he can do.

Hell, London makers STILL cannot match to the overall build quality and styling of top current North American bolt 'smiths like Weibe, Smithson, Echols or Ralph Martini.

quote:

Originally posted by jim62:
Grenadier,

Name ONE Landon gun firm (ANY of them) that currently builds (or has EVER built) a true best quality bolt rifle on an action of THEIR OWN complete design and manufacturer and then get back to me.

They have always used actions built by someone else.

And I will tell you this, you damn sure have never examined a bolt rifle built by Monte Mandarino. It literally WOULD take a TEAM of British gunsmiths to equal what he can do.

Hell, London makers STILL cannot match to the overall build quality and styling of top current North American bolt 'smiths like Weibe, Smithson, Echols or Ralph Martini.

Patriotism has always been held high in the US

M

quote:

Originally posted by KimR:
Not in order of quality but Bradshaw, Wiebe,Smithson,Satterlee,Mandarino,Fisher

As much as I like most of Bailey's work I have seen to date and admire his artist courage and talent, he has a way to go yet to be mentioned in that class of craftsmen. Especially Weibe, Fisher and Mandarino.. All of whom have about a 30+ year head start on him regarding fine gun work.

The overall quality his work at this time would not even quality for guild status -yet. Even he is probably honest enough to admit that. I am sure that will change in the future, but for now, he is simply not yet in the class of Weibe, Fisher or Mandarino as a rifle builder..

Also, I have never seen any bolt action work from him.

quote:

Patriotism has always been held high in the US

M

And extreme ignorance apparently held in high regard in Norway.

.350 Magnum Rigby copy by Smithson. Done to perfection!!. One can tell it has the slantbox magazine too

quote:

Originally posted by jim62:

quote:

Patriotism has always been held high in the US

M

And extreme ignorance apparently held in high regard in Norway.

One thing is for sure, in ANY discussion of best grade bolt guns, the word NORWAY will never come up

Is there really any need for this sort of pettiness chaps?


On the subject of the rifles....tricky one.

I respect KimR's opinion on the matter greatly and whilst I've not handled and shot as many rifles as many of the posters here I feel whilst he might be a tiny bit unfair on the British gun trade as a whole, he does have a point.

The problem is that very few best rifles are built by the British guntrade these days and of those a very small proportion will be specified in bolt action. Not very many are made and few men are skilled in their manufacture compared to the double gun men. If the job is not passed to one of those specialists for some reason, the sort of thing that Mr. Weibe describes above is not inconceivable.

We have many Gunsmiths over here you will never have heard of that screw together barrels and actions for the bulk of the trade in "custom" ( semi custom kit jobs in my view ) trade for the average bloke stalking deer or shooting foxes. These sorts of rifles cost between two and four thousand pounds and tend to be stainless, synthetic, suppressed tools rather than object d'art.

The next step up is to contact the outworkers to the trade operating under their own auspices to build you a best style gun. This will set you back around £10k without engraving, and depending on options, and will probably result in just as fine a rifle as one built by the famous houses but for a considerable saving.

Then of course you have the big boys. I suspect a man would be happier with a nice vintage rifle than a modern production one, but I can't prove it.

If it were my blank cheque I'd be asking Paul Roberts to build me a Jeffrey.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
.350 Magnum Rigby copy by Smithson. Done to perfection!!. One can tell it has the slantbox magazine too

Jens,

Beautiful rifle and proves my point entirely.

As a "Brit" here's my input. For the most part the top English makers - there are no Scottish SHOT GUN MAKERS that also make stalking rifles nowadays since Martin and Dickson finished - are no more nor less re-barrellers of Mauser actions.

Holland, Westley Richards, Purdey all basically re-barrel old military Mauser actions. Using at one time AMERICAN MADE BARRELS. I forget the name but it was one of the big US rifle barrel makers in the 1950s and 1960s.

Can anybody help with the name? They were a big concern but it has gone from my mind!

So too for target rifles did G E Fulton of Bisley but using European made barrels and barrels as did A J Parker.

But a Fulton rifle based on a Mauser action would always have been a twentieth of the price and MORE ACCURATE! Pretty "ugly" it was a functional target rifle not a stalking rifle but more accurate than any H & H or Westley!

Parker Hale also pretty much did what Holland and Westley Richards did, re-barrel Mauser actions to make sporting rifles.

Except that Parker Hale made their own barrels.

You really are only paying for the name and that is fact.

But there is something you get that whilst not "unique" to the London makers used to be....

That is the fit and finish of the wood to the metal, the exquisite stand and fold sights and the frontsight sytems, and the shape of the stock.

Plus with Holland their superb sidemount system that IMHO is the best. Better even than the continental Suhler type claw mount.

However a lot of those beautiful stand and fold and frontsight systems I see are now available from NECG in the US.

But as for the actual assembly of the metal parts...barrel to action...well anybody can do that and anybody can do that well.

Good grief military armourers have been doing it on military sniper rifles and service rifles (on the Mauser action when such things were being used) sine the 1890s!

If I were to have a bespoke (not that awful word "custom" please) stalking rifle I'd choose a Holland.

In fact my mother offered to buy me one last year! But I turned her down.

I wouldn't have a Westley as a gift as I consider that the company offers poor customer service and are have an attitude problem!

With Holland when you walk through their door it is as if YOU AND YOU ALONE are their most important customer EVER.

And for me that is all part of the experience.

There are many smaller "one man" stalking rifles in Britain however, some with us...HAYGARTH, ALAN RHONE, some now maybe gone...PROCTOR, DAVID LLOYD, Etc, etc.

But whilst I agree with a lot of what GRENADIER has posted I don't agree that you get a better quality of screwing a third party maker's barrel to an old Mauser action in Britain than you do in the US.

And accuracy "standard" for these London bespoke rifles will leave you a little disappointed if you ae expecting sub one inch or "all holes in a cloverleaf" at 100 yards.

THE LAST WORD....

If you want an "English" stalking rifle and are happy to accept that it won't ever shoot cloverleaf groups then get one. It will be better with Holland style sidemounts and with a European 'scope usually a Zeiss.

On the other hand the Europeans especially the Germans AND the Belgians do nice "continental style" hunting rifles. Again they'll use maybe a claw mount and have a disting style of stocking and rear and front sights.

And again with maybe a Kahles or other European 'scope.

Nothing wrong either with the "classic" American hunting rifle. Maybe Redfield type mounts and maybe a Leupold 'scope.

But the thing is whatever you choose for some reason these things always look better if they are "married" with sights, mounts, 'scopes that they would traditionally have been equippped with.

IMHO nothing looks WORSE than a fine old H & H that has some fifty years later been "modernised" with Redfield mounts and sporting a Leupold 'scope!

Ditto I would never put European claw mounts of a classic Winchester Model 70 or, "custom shop" Remington 700. It just won't "look right"!

So enjoy your purchase but don't try to "mix and match". Pick a "style"...London, European, American and then stay faithful to the concept.

But I certainly would not have any doubts about the accuracy of ANY American custom made hunting rifle compared to ANY London made, or Westley, stalking rifle.

Prechtal makes M98 actioned rifles for H&H from time to time ...the onley thing H&H do is Stamp there name on the rifle and price it accordingly

Dont even go there as far as accurate "put together"rifles. A friend about 90 mi away will put together a hunting rifle for 3500USD& guarantee HE can get 3/8" 3 shot groups up to 30 caliber.He HATES recoil.wont shoot anything larger.

It is interesting to hear protestations about building foreign guns on actions built out of house while the above examples of great US gunsmiths lists people who build US guns on actions built out of house. The same goes for the barrels. How individual rifle builders use the materials at hand is what differentiates the quality of a firearm. The best makers use these actions as raw materials and subject them to considerable refinement.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
It is interesting to hear protestations about building foreign guns on actions built out of house while the above examples of great US gunsmiths lists people who build US guns on actions built out of house. The same goes for the barrels. How individual rifle builders use the materials at hand is what differentiates the quality of a firearm. The best makers use these actions as raw materials and subject them to considerable refinement.

Amen

From my understanding, if one orders a WJ Jeffery bolt rifle it would be largly, if not completely made in the USA, and probably much finer quality, superior finish and better tested for accuaracy/function than most named above...
The possible exceptions, a few of other US makers.

quote:

Originally posted by 8x57 IS:
1. H&H
2. Westley Richards
3. Jeffrey
4. Rigby
5. Purdey

Sounds like your intent on getting a cased gun with a proper bespoke manufacturers label.

If its a magnum mauser your interested in,I d go WR, but my preferred choice is actually not on your list.
I would take a Hartmann & Weiss bespoke bolt rifle over any of the bespoke label manufacturers you listed above.

With your budget,if it didn't have to come from a maker with high provenance label,
I have Ralf Martini,Echols or Smithson do me something using a HartmannWeiss-made or Prechtl-made M98 receiver.

in the meantime,what possible through the Hartmann Weiss shop:

Of all the big name companies mentioned above,I would only consider H&W.The other names are only trying to benefit from a reputation established by a founder who has long past away.

Step 1) Make plans to attend the ACGG show and find a maker whose style best represents your wishes.

Step 2) Write that maker a check.

Step 3) Wait patiently.

Another perspective (from a distance !!)

The reason "english rifles" were so sought after in the early 19th century was (in my opinion) simple marketing.

The "English" had the personal means too do as they wished, and for enormous numbers that meant hunting in Africa or India. Simple marketing is listening to your customers, and reflecting their needs. The defining quality of the english rifle (generally produced before the first world war) is that it is “totally fit for purpose” in terms of quality of manufacture and design.

In the 120 years since the economic circumstance of Britain has changed, and the fashionable pursuits of her peoples moved on. The numbers of people “hunting abroad” from Britain is undoubtedly only a fraction of what it was.

I would suggest that since the 1930’s the feedback from customers to english gunmakers has been minimal (relative to the previous period) and that other parts of the world have moved on. To be a great deal more blunt that is polite - the english gunmakers are locked in a timewarp trading on a reputation that is founded in the past. That is not to decry the artistic merit of their productions.

The principals of Hartmann & Weiss have been quoted a saying that Paul Roberts makes the best bolt guns on the planet.

I really wonder how much better either are than, say, a NIB FN Win M70.

And some of us select a middle path: Dakota 76.

Personally I've found Paul Roberts is a rare gentleman and I'd reckon worthy of your consideration and a visit. To be fair to yourself, consider seriously a visit to all of the establishments you have on your shortlist, even if at a show. That way you'll get a feel for the makers themselves, and hopefully the quality vs price vs name they offer.

I think it should also be noted that PR's personal hunting experiences have given him a great insight into bolt and double rifles as hunting tools. Such experience is in my opinion not to be underestimated, and not all gunmakers have such experience behind them. It may be argued that they don't need it, but with a bloke like Paul, you know he has significant first hand understanding of the importance and ramifications of correct fit, function and reliability in the field.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by jens poulsen:
.350 Magnum Rigby copy by Smithson. Done to perfection!!. One can tell it has the slantbox magazine too

The 350 Rigby is not a copy done by Smithson. It is a restoration done by Lon Paul. I have seen this rifle at Lon's shop and handled it there.

quote:

Originally posted by Juglansregia:
Personally I've found Paul Roberts is a rare gentleman and I'd reckon worthy of your consideration and a visit. To be fair to yourself, consider seriously a visit to all of the establishments you have on your shortlist, even if at a show. That way you'll get a feel for the makers themselves, and hopefully the quality vs price vs name they offer.

I think it should also be noted that PR's personal hunting experiences have given him a great insight into bolt and double rifles as hunting tools. Such experience is in my opinion not to be underestimated, and not all gunmakers have such experience behind them. It may be argued that they don't need it, but with a bloke like Paul, you know he has significant first hand understanding of the importance and ramifications of correct fit, function and reliability in the field.

Paul Roberts has a J.Rigby & Co .375H&H [700rem based] custom, currently on his website.
http://www.jroberts-gunmakers.co.uk/

I wonder what Paul Roberts view is [re: function & reliability] of a Rem700 based DGR- compared to an M98 based DGR.

Hello 8X57,

you state that you are living nearby Hamburg. I suggest that you visit Hartmann & Weiss in Hamburg, before you do any decision.

Robert

quote:

Originally posted by Robert:
Hello 8X57,

you state that you are living nearby Hamburg. I suggest that you visit Hartmann & Weiss in Hamburg, before you do any decision.

Robert

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Juglansregia:
Personally I've found Paul Roberts is a rare gentleman and I'd reckon worthy of your consideration and a visit. To be fair to yourself, consider seriously a visit to all of the establishments you have on your shortlist, even if at a show. That way you'll get a feel for the makers themselves, and hopefully the quality vs price vs name they offer.

I think it should also be noted that PR's personal hunting experiences have given him a great insight into bolt and double rifles as hunting tools. Such experience is in my opinion not to be underestimated, and not all gunmakers have such experience behind them. It may be argued that they don't need it, but with a bloke like Paul, you know he has significant first hand understanding of the importance and ramifications of correct fit, function and reliability in the field.

Paul Roberts has a J.Rigby & Co .375H&H [700rem based] custom, currently on his website.
http://www.jroberts-gunmakers.co.uk/

I wonder what Paul Roberts view is [re: function & reliability] of a Rem700 based DGR- compared to an M98 based DGR.

It's a lefty Trax, the it probably an enforced decision. Some people have used PF action on DG successfully from what I've read.

Having said that I wouldn't have a non-CRF DG rifle on account of my cowardice...

The rest of the DG rifles on his page are all CRF, and probably a bit more expensive too.

I have been both to HARTMAN & WEISS and PRECHTAL...i will take a rifle built by Prechtal over H&M

My recommendation: spent a day in London and Birmingham and have a look at the bolt guns. Look diligent for fit and wood quality. If you like the look of classic british guns Westley is hard to beat and the people there outstanding.

Another option is Joel Dorleac in Perpignan and Ralf Martini in Canada.

While I like all these gunsmiths I also agree that the quality of American gunmakers these days is absolutely outstanding. The Smithson is stunning.

Trax:

I am sure if you asked Mr Roberts your question, he would give you an honest answer to it.

@all thanks a lot for your various hints and infos. Sorry that a caused a cross Atlantic dispute on rifle makers.
Meanwhile I found out who make the bolt action rifles for Purdey. Therefore I can cross off Purdey from the list.
I good idea is Hartmann & Weiss. But Ritterbusch and Kessler are German rifle makers with a good repuation too. So I guess it will take me a certain time to talk to the German rifle makers and perhaps to one of the British.
I will keep you informed on this issue.
I wish all of you a Merry X-mas and a happy and prosperous New Year 2012.