quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
My recommendation: spent a day in London and Birmingham and have a look at the bolt guns. Look diligent for fit and wood quality. If you like the look of classic british guns Westley is hard to beat and the people there outstanding.

Another option is Joel Dorleac in Perpignan and Ralf Martini in Canada.

While I like all these gunsmiths I also agree that the quality of American gunmakers these days is absolutely outstanding. The Smithson is stunning.

Hi, bist du auch im Wild & Hund Forum unter dem Nick?

Unless you want something that looks like it should be in a museum,there is no point in paying the extra big bucks and going with H&W or H&H.I wouldn`t even consider them if I wanted a double rifle because I can`t understand the 100,000+ dollar price tag.I think with Holland or H&W even if the rifle doesn`t look like a museum piece I am sure you will still get the museum price.I would consider a down to earth rifle builder,especially one that is not turning them out at a crazy rate like one a week.The real deal is out there you just got to be careful and patient.You can also consider using a combination of people.It is important that we look at today and who is doing things the right way today,not yesterday-in other words look at the current work.Also,send a rifle in for some gunsmithing work and look at what comes back.See what the trigger will be like or how the bolt will cycle.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Unless you want something that looks like it should be in a museum,there is no point in paying the extra big bucks and going with H&W or H&H.I wouldn`t even consider them if I wanted a double rifle because I can`t understand the 100,000+ dollar price tag.I think with Holland or H&W even if the rifle doesn`t look like a museum piece I am sure you will still get the museum price. I would consider a down to earth rifle builder...

Hartmann-Weiss are down to earth-practical rifle builders, but just like any custom shop they add all kinds of cosmetic embellishments at the paying customers request.
$25-30k for a no frills top grade custom mauser, to me is not indicative of a museum price.

Sure I can get an equally fine M98 bolt rifle built by Ralf Martini in Canada,... for less dollars.

But smaller shops like Ralfs and Martin Hagns, do not have to suffer the same cost of overheads and capital invest that H&W bear.
H&W manufacture their own receivers [SXS,U/O, M98 and Hagn-FB], which Ralf and Martin have the convenience of being supplied, without all the hassles of manufacture.

Set-up premises like H&W have, employ the people/skills they have in house, and turn out the range & quality of workmanship they do, and get back to us on how much you would need to charge and successfully stay in business.

Is that 25K including the H&W action and engraving? Where did you get that amount from? I doubt it would cost 25K.I feel more like they would ask for 50K.A few years ago you could've got someone from this sight who makes his own action- who some think is better than the H&W action,to build a complete rifle for 10K- using his action.The stock was to be done by a ACGG member.

The "Kesslerin" is for sure a very pretty girl. I'd adore her in 6,5x57 mm in the classic civilian Mauser style from the 1920s.

The "Kesslerin".

I normally don't want to be one of those guys who tells you what you want, but since others have done it here and I get the impression you might be interested in a German built rifle as long as it has British style, I would recommend looking at the rifles made by Alois Mayr in Mittenwald.

His Rifles are very British looking and VERY well made. Look here http://www.mayr-jagdwaffen.com/english/takedown.php

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:
The "Kesslerin" is for sure a very pretty girl. I'd adore her in 6,5x57 mm in the classic civilian Mauser style from the 1920s.

The "Kesslerin".

Hi DUK it seems you are more involved in the accurate forum than in the WuH forum.
But back to the "Kesslerin". To much money for that kind of bolt action rifle. Kessler started his carrer with rifles built to customers specifications in a very good relation between prize and value. But these times are gone by.

Before I pay 12500 € for a Kesslerin I add some Euros or bucks and get a H&W, Ritterbusch or a Theo Jung rifle. I had the opportunity to handle a Kesslerin on the Dortmund show. The one and only comment to this rifles made by Mr Kessler, good but not outstanding and not so awesome like rifles from other German rifle manufacturers.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shootaway:
Is that 25K including the H&W action and engraving?

Including the H&W action yes, no engraving.
I clearly said a "no frills" high grade mauser for $25-30k, that means top workmanship-without cosmetic embellishments.

Where did you get that amount from? I doubt it would cost 25K.I feel more like they would ask for 50K.

Straight from the horses mouth [Otto Weiss] whilst handling a H&W magnum mauser.

A few years ago you could've got someone from this sight who makes his own action- who some think is better than the H&W action,to build a complete rifle for 10K- using his action.The stock was to be done by a ACGG member.

Who was it on AR that was building his own M98 action and supplying complete rifle for 10k?..
Whats their reputation and history of delivery like?
Are they still in business?

Ive heard only crap from people on AR who announce their grand plans to make receivers[m70 or M98 style]
It either eventuates in;
1/nothing ever materialising,..or
2/ the Customer get lied to and f*cked around so much before it does arrive, that those wised up,prefer not to do business with them anymore.

Lets view some history of American smiths attempting to produce and sell their own CRF receivers:

- Noreen went out of business attempting to make M70 clones, and created a mediocre quality product at best.
- Hein bought the Noreen idea,...then went out of business taking the customers monies with them....
- Williams announced his grand plan[year 2002?] to make an M70 clone ...then regurgitated the idea a few yrs later,...which has never eventuated...
- Pete Grisel quite making M98 actions ages ago...
- Taconic is also well out of the game of making M98 receivers...
- and if your waiting for something from Satterlee,...well,i don't need to add,as its all been said before and well proven.


now in contrast;

I believe H&W began manufacturing their new M98 receivers around 1980, seems their still strongly in business....
If you've heard any genuine foundation complaints regarding their reputation or business practices, please lets hear them!

Prechtl and HartmannWeiss seems to be able to make M98 actions for their own rifle builds as well as supplying other premium rifle makers.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shootaway:
Is that 25K including the H&W action and engraving?

Including the H&W action yes, no engraving.
I clearly said a "no frills" high grade mauser for $25-30k, that means top workmanship-without cosmetic embellishments.

Where did you get that amount from? I doubt it would cost 25K.I feel more like they would ask for 50K.

Straight from the horses mouth [Otto Weiss] whilst handling a H&W magnum mauser.

A few years ago you could've got someone from this sight who makes his own action- who some think is better than the H&W action,to build a complete rifle for 10K- using his action.The stock was to be done by a ACGG member.

Who was it on AR that was building his own M98 action and supplying complete rifle for 10k?..
Whats their reputation and history of delivery like?
Are they still in business?

Ive heard only crap from people on AR who announce their grand plans to make receivers[m70 or M98 style]
It either eventuates in;
1/nothing ever materialising,..or
2/ the Customer get lied to and f*cked around so much before it does arrive, that those wised up,prefer not to do business with them anymore.

Lets view some history of American smiths attempting to produce and sell their own CRF receivers:

- Noreen went out of business attempting to make M70 clones, and created a mediocre quality product at best.
- Hein bought the Noreen idea,...then went out of business taking the customers monies with them....
- Williams announced his grand plan[year 2002?] to make an M70 clone ...then regurgitated the idea a few yrs later,...which has never eventuated...
- Pete Grisel quite making M98 actions ages ago...
- Taconic is also well out of the game of making M98 receivers...
- and if your waiting for something from Satterlee,...well,i don't need to add,as its all been said before and well proven.

now in contrast;

I believe H&W began manufacturing their new M98 receivers around 1980, seems their still strongly in business....
If you've heard any genuine foundation complaints regarding their reputation or business practices, please lets hear them!

Prechtl and HartmannWeiss seems to be able to make M98 actions for their own rifle builds as well as supplying other premium rifle makers.

Trax,can you post a picture of a H&W that costs 25K so I can see what kind of rifle you are talking about?

Nobodys right and nobodys wrong in this dogfight...

All these guys make very nice nice rifles indeed..

Personally if I was going to spend the big bucks, I would buy one of the old rifles that are still floating around, I would be careful and purchase a very good one..A Holland and Holland, WR, Jefferys, Henry Aiken, and others. They hold their value better and don't seem to every depreciate, just keep going up and up. I rebuilt an old Holland and Holland that I purchased for $600, it was terrible but had a good bore, it was a croc hunters gun. After two years of rejuvination I traded it to a friend of one of our old posters for a super nice Jefferys .450-400 double, 5 years later I see it advertised and it sold for something like $35,000 or $45,000. and somebody bought it..Even the old established firm of double rifles thought it was an as new original I guess. It was a lovel gun..Wish I had it back.

A naked plug for my friend Joel Dorleac in France. He follows either classic English or G&H styles with modifications as requested by his clients. Joel's firm is tiny - just 3 people - and I don't need to be biased as a friend to praise his work.

quote:

Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
A naked plug for my friend Joel Dorleac in France. He follows either classic English or G&H styles with modifications as requested by his clients. Joel's firm is tiny - just 3 people - and I don't need to be biased as a friend to praise his work.

He nailed the forend on the 404 Jeffrey. I like the placement of the barrel band aswell. That is where the band needs to be in my opinion.....far away from the hand.

BTW I agree with Atkinson. I would have patience, shop wisly,and buy one of the old guns from Rigby or Holland & Holland.

If I bought new I would have Duane Wiebe or Reto Buehler build me a rifle.....

I can't and will not critize the placement of the front sling eye on the mentioned rifle.

But..to be realistic, the placement is not just what "pleases this or that eye"

The placement should be well thought out so that when carried in a sling over the shoulder, the hand on the butt can guide the muzzle over, under and around obstacles encountered while stalking...

And..the butt sling eye placement must also allow a muzzle down attitude without stuffing the muzzle into the mud.

A full day following a duggaboy will set it right

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
I can't and will not critize the placement of the front sling eye on the mentioned rifle.

But..to be realistic, the placement is not just what "pleases this or that eye"

The placement should be well thought out so that when carried in a sling over the shoulder, the hand on the butt can guide the muzzle over, under and around obstacles encountered while stalking...

And..the butt sling eye placement must also allow a muzzle down attitude without stuffing the muzzle into the mud.

A full day following a duggaboy will set it right

I will let a word from the wise be sufficient.

From a purely aesthetic point of view I generally prefer the English engraving on guns, when compared to Italian or German rifles. But I don't think engraving is of much importance on a rifle you intend to hunt with. And of course there are English engravers who formerly worked for British gun makers who now live and work in the USA, so you don't have to order your gun in the UK to get some fine engraving done on a US made rifle.

I am currently having Lon Paul build me three rifles. He builds fine rifles with historical looks in the Rigby, Griffin and Howe, and German styles that are diffucult to tell from the original guns made decades before.

Unlike many builders that build their guns with a repeating look and handling characteristic, Lon builds a variety of styles that conforms to the customer wishes, with modern strong actions, beautiful wood, and your pick of barrels.

He is builing for me a 9.3X62 on an Argentine 1909 Mauser action, a 505 Gibbs in a Griffin & Howe style, with a GMA action, and a 338 Win Mag, on a M70 action fashioned after a 350 Rigby Magnum. His work is exceptional and provides a positive building experience after many disapointments from other gun builders.

Check out his web page at www.lonpaulcustomguns.com

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shootaway:
Is that 25K including the H&W action and engraving?

Including the H&W action yes, no engraving.
I clearly said a "no frills" high grade mauser for $25-30k, that means top workmanship-without cosmetic embellishments.

Where did you get that amount from? I doubt it would cost 25K.I feel more like they would ask for 50K.

Straight from the horses mouth [Otto Weiss] whilst handling a H&W magnum mauser.

A few years ago you could've got someone from this sight who makes his own action- who some think is better than the H&W action,to build a complete rifle for 10K- using his action.The stock was to be done by a ACGG member.

Who was it on AR that was building his own M98 action and supplying complete rifle for 10k?..
Whats their reputation and history of delivery like?
Are they still in business?

Ive heard only crap from people on AR who announce their grand plans to make receivers[m70 or M98 style]
It either eventuates in;
1/nothing ever materialising,..or
2/ the Customer get lied to and f*cked around so much before it does arrive, that those wised up,prefer not to do business with them anymore.

Lets view some history of American smiths attempting to produce and sell their own CRF receivers:

- Noreen went out of business attempting to make M70 clones, and created a mediocre quality product at best.
- Hein bought the Noreen idea,...then went out of business taking the customers monies with them....
- Williams announced his grand plan[year 2002?] to make an M70 clone ...then regurgitated the idea a few yrs later,...which has never eventuated...
- Pete Grisel quite making M98 actions ages ago...
- Taconic is also well out of the game of making M98 receivers...
- and if your waiting for something from Satterlee,...well,i don't need to add,as its all been said before and well proven.

now in contrast;

I believe H&W began manufacturing their new M98 receivers around 1980, seems their still strongly in business....
If you've heard any genuine foundation complaints regarding their reputation or business practices, please lets hear them!

Prechtl and HartmannWeiss seems to be able to make M98 actions for their own rifle builds as well as supplying other premium rifle makers.

Trax,can you post a picture of a H&W that costs 25K so I can see what kind of rifle you are talking about?

20,650k euros for their plane jane magnum sized rifle.... in .375H&H as quoted by them at SCI.... cheaper for the smaller actions.

Add a few options like engraving, colour case hardening, scope mounting and extended upper lower tang, and you are at 31500k euros....

hallowell has a casartelli in 416. on of the nicest guns ive ever seen ,,with there own homemade bottom metal ?? mag action for 13k its a steal compared to anything british ....paul

quote:

Originally posted by PAUL J.A.:
hallowell has a casartelli in 416. on of the nicest guns ive ever seen ,,with there own homemade bottom metal ?? mag action for 13k its a steal compared to anything british ....paul

And you can get its little brother in .375H&H at Fox Hill for another $9800.
That gets you two top shelf bolt guns ready to take on the world for less than a single gun from any of the formentioned makers.

I just cannot wrap my brain around the desire to buy any new gun anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
... I would stay in Germany and go to Hartmann & Weiss...

+1