Or for you Merkins, shooting a Chauchat.

Thank you to Big Mike to keep this 92 years old veteran alive.

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=lPFu_ZlQ6yg

It didn't get very favorable comments according to "Hatcher's Notebook".How often was it used as a "trench sweeper" as in the video ?

When they run a series on the satelite TV shows about machine guns they say that the curved open magazine is the main source of problems. Something else too about it being unsafe. Edmond, maybe you can expand on this. This is one machine gun you don't really hear detailed information on like how it functions etc.

Thanks
Joe

This weapon probably got the most unfair judgement that a firearm can get.

The project was launched in 1900, a model was first shown in 1903 and was ready for adoption in 1905. small series were built.it was then put on hold until 1910 when it was deemed unnecessary. some experimental work was done on the existing pieces.

After the heavy losses of french infantry in 1914 and especially the first half of 1915, it was decided to produce a weapon giving the attacking infantry a superior firepower during the assault when the artillery stopped covering the attacking troops and the heavy machine guns were not in position to cover the assault.
The project was brought back to life and industrialisation was started. first deliveries were made after Christmas 1915.
Louis Chauchat,Charles Sutter, Ribeyrolle and Gladiator worked on it giving the name CSRG 1915.
250,000 pieces were made, more than the Maxim MG 08/15 and the Lewis combined. the main drawback is the magazin with its curved shape due to the rimmed bottle shaped case of the french round that was planned to be replaced in 1913. the opening was made to allow the visual control of ammo but this firearm had been thought as an assault weapon not as a weapon that will be used in muddy trenches.

It will work the way it was intended to do. superior firepower on the move will trigger the german studies that will bring the SMG concept later.
During the 1918 allied offensives the CSRG 1915 will give tactical advantage to the attacking infantry.

A very large quantity will be given to Poland after WW1 along with Lebel, Berthier 07/15, Berthier carbines, Hotchkiss MG and billions of rounds. Instructors will be sent to train polish forces.
At various levels up to the headquarter, the officers in command are French, this is quite an unknown fact. Among them, Charles de Gaulle. the plans will be drawn by General Weygand who will be found in command in 1940 during the worst moment of the Battle of France.

Another country where there will be a wide use of CSRG 1915 is Finland. France donated these weapons to Finland as well.

Many countries will use the CSRG 1915 after WW1.

A few anglosaxons authors expressed their disdain of anything French by biased opinions on the french armament. Some did it quite recently. I don't give a damn when knowing these self proclaimed experts did not have in hand what they write about. I learned recently some never shoot..

Army museum in Poland



http://www.iirp.prv.pl/piechota/ckm_lkm_rkm/chauchat/Dep_piech_Chauchat.htm

Northeastern France, June, 22nd, 1918.
Soldier of the 32nd Infantry Division



The 32nd Division was organized under War Dept. orders of 18 July 1917 of National Guard Units from both Wisconsin and Michigan. Units began leaving state camps in Wisconsin and Michigan bound for Camp MacArthur, near Waco, Texas, in early August 1917. The last units arrived at Camp MacArthur by late September 1917.

The Division served on the front line during World War I from 18 May 1918 until the end of the War on 11 November 1918. It was the first American Division to pierce the famed Hindenburg Line, fought in 4 major offensives and earned the name “Les Terribles†from the French.


The 32nd Division was the only American division to be bestowed with a nom-de-guerre by an Allied nation during the war.

The colors of all four Infantry Regiments, three Artillery Regiments and three Machine Gun Battalions were decorated with the French Croix de Guerre With Palm. These were the only National Guard units bestowed with the highest order of the Croix de Guerre during WWI.

The Division served with the Army of Occupation in Germany until 18 April 1919 and began its return to the U.S. on 1 May 1919.

Returning home the Division was demobilized in May 1919 and returned to National Guard status about a year later.

Well done as usual Edmond. I can't see how a person can write about a particular weapon if he's never handled it, fired, and see others handle and fire it. Not too many firearms do well in muddy trenches. It sounds like the M16 in a way, keep it clean and it'll work.

Joe

Thank you.
It seems it is quite common for so called "experts" to quote each other.
The automatic/select fire weapons involve a lot of phantasy, these toys are not that common, those who handled them even less.
When I read articles about scarce pieces I owned, I shot, I handled, I disassembled to the smallest parts to study mecanisms and parts interaction, I can easily see that people write after in the best case having handled something in a museum.

Edmond,

It's sort of like that in automobiles too. A friend wanted me to rebuilt a 1929 DeSota engine for him. More different then what I normally work on, but the same operating principles. Thing is it ran perfect until it got warmed up, then started backfiring really bad, then quit. It would run again when cooled off and do the same thing. It wasn't until I went to a little auto show and there were some very old cars with very old owners. Now we're talking about someone that had hands on experience, not just someone who writes about it. I told the old fellow what the symptoms were. He noted I put new valves and new valve guides in the engine. He asked if it was backfiring through the intake or the exhaust. I told him exhaust. He said yup. I said yup what? He said the exhaust valves are expanding after warming up and sticking in the new guides. He said there was an old trick to fix that until they wore in without having to take the guides out and ream them. Simple as pouring one quart of diesel fuel or kerosene in with the 20 gallons of gasoline. By God!!!! He was right. It ran like a top ever after that. Soon these old fellows that know this stuff won't be around. We should write books with their knowledge in them. This reminds me very much of what you say about firearms.

Joe

quote:

Soon these old fellows that know this stuff won't be around

Exactly. When I was younger and started to shoot, I spent hours with old men who had been working in french arsenals before, during and after WW2. same with old fighters of WW2, Indochina, Algeria. I have regrets that I did not spent more time with them before they died. c'est la vie.
btw, I learned a lot about old motorbikes, too.
Bikes were my other passion after firearms.

Ah bikes. Just today I was telling a friend about an old bike my neighbor had when I was a small kid. It was more a motorized bicycle. The name was Wizard. It was dark green and had the name Wizard in white letters on the tank on the crossbars. The motor sat, if I remember correctly, over top the front wheel. He use to take me on rides around the block. That was a big deal for a little kid.

Joe

Something like that?



Hint: there is a motorized bicycle in this picture.

http://www.mcqueenonline.com/solex3800.htm

how could i miss her(BB) during my hunting in france
yazid

Edmond,

Etiez-vous né en France ? En quelle partie de France habitez-vous ? Où avez-vous appris tel bon anglais ? Vous êtes un homme très intéressant pour dire le moindre. Peut-être nous aurons à envoyer un e-mail à l'un l'autre.

Joe

Other than the afore mentioned issue of the open magazine (which did let in an awfull amount of dirt and debris), there were some issues with durability and reliability.

I've said on other threads here that I believed that the firearms of the French are denegrated unfairly, however with this one I'm not too sure.

I will admit upfront that I've never fired one (though I have looked at them closely and inspected their manufacturing). I was a little unimpressed at their quality. Yet their is the flip side that the CSRG 1915 was actually a pioneer development in that sort of manufacturing process.

Yet I remember my Grandfather, a veteran of WW I, wounded in the Argonne Forrest. He rarely, almost never, spoke of his experience in the war, but what he did say almost every time was that "the Sho Sho was a piece of crap." He would know more than me as he carried one.

Now there may be the issue that the 30.06 ammo that the American weapons were chambered for caused problems, that would actually be expected. I'm just thinking though that the weapons were spotty in quality and not totally developed as there was a rush to get the weapons in the hands of the soldiers. That too is to be expected. Happens every war, right?

Regards,

Eric

Gladiator was manufacturing bicycles and their way of making firearms with welded metal stampings was used 23 years later in Germany.
There were 250,000 CSRG 1915 in 8x50 and there were 18 900 CSRG 1918 in .30. they had a 16 rounds straight magazine, they were withdrawn from service a few months after their introduction, there was a mistake in the 30.06 cartridge datas transmitted to the French, they never worked properly.

French Chasseurs training US Infantry Sept, 20th, 1917

Some comments here, just from a point of remembering - often a dangerous thing.
I have always read the 'Sho-Sho' had very poor quality control during manufacture, so poor, in fact, if parts from one gun were mixed with another often times the piece could not be assembled or made to work. Also, some very poor metal was used in manufacture in order to keep this amongst the cheapest of all LMG's ever built. True or not true - I don't know; believe I read this in WHB Smith “Small Arms of the World.â€
As to the "Wizard,' I'm not familiar with this brand but could tell you a ton about the 'Whizzer' I rode one of these things many miles. You could always tell the kid with a 'Whizzer' by the belt dressing up the middle of his back! As much as 60 miles per hour with no brakes except the coaster brake on the bike! What a thrill!
And the Solex, oh the Solex! I think most of the young, single girls living in France when I was there - early '60s - [Lord, has it been that long ago!] had a Solex. Cheap transport, and to frame things properly, a girl friend of mine bought a brand new Renault in 1963, did not have a 'self-commencer' or starter as that was an option! I spun her off more than once and she usually tried to park where she could roll off. Lovely little thing named Beatrice.
Maybe it is time I stop this reminiscing – I will always be in love with Francoise Hardy but I saw a picture of her recently and the years have not been kind to her. And as mon ami, Edward, remarked, c’est la vie – and also, I think, c’est lamour!
Au voir, et bonne chance!
trapperP

When the CSRG 1915 was made, the french industry was running full steam having lost the industrial capacity of the northern and eastern provinces, not far from half the french industrial capacity and most of the french mines.
What was left had to keep up with a demand like it never existed in any other conflict before. The nascent automobile industry converted a lot of its capacity to armament, Citroen for example made millions of 75mm shells for the howitzers, the french artillery used 170,000 75mm daily at the peak of the battle.
Thousands of small arms were destroyed and lost daily.
The idea was to made parts everywhere in small workshops before to assemble them in Gladiator factory and Saint Chamond arsenal, 250,000 weapons had been ordered. Saint Chamond was already short with howitzers production and then later with tanks. The production of Chauchat was let entirely to the private industry.
Then these weapons saw an intensive use. from one shooter and one assistant carrying ammunitions when the weapon was introduced, the team was made of 4 men, one team leader, one shooter, two ammunition purveyors.
Just imagine how many rounds went downrange during every assault...

These veterans served well.



scroll down to find Gladiator

In French, many interesting pictures and diagrams http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FM%20Chauchat.html

In memoriam!

Another one live, thanks to an american collector.

It is odd how sometimes people have a strange "national pride" that blinds them to the defects of the weapons of their nation's armed forces.

The BAR was neither light nor a machine gun...yet to some it seems almost sacred! I tried one a long time ago before they were banned in the UK and thought it very poor as an LMG.

The CSRG had some defects but the 250 000 of them in service gave a superior firepower to its users.

btt for jetdvr.

quote:

CSRG 1915,,, it lives!!

CSRG 1915,,, it lives!! Author Topic
BigMike
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
986 Posts
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 7:49:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just got home from my buddys where the first test shoot of my new CSRG 1915 Chauchat went off without a problem. I fired about 40 rounds I loaded up yesterday with 200gr bullets in front of 46gr Accurate 3100. I had only one failure to feed so I consider the test a success.. It dumped the brass directly out the right side all into a pile maybe 4 feet away so I thought that was good too.

My buddy Bill calls it the Chu chu as he says it sounds like and old steam train locomotive chugging away. I think I really like this thing.

Now i guess I'll have to finish forming up the rest of the brass I have and load it all up. I had some ups and downs getting all the stuff to load for this thing but I think it'll all be down hill from here.
______________________

What can I say,, I like this thing. The bipod sucks, ergonomics suck, it's a pain to make and reload the 8mm Lebel ammo in comparason to shooting something like 9mm or 54r that's cheap and readily avialable but it's sure a historic, interesting and fun to shoot gun. It certainly won't be easy to find spare parts so it will not be one of my regular shooters but I do now have over 300 rounds rolled up and all the stuff to make/reload some more so I'm sure I'll still take it out once in a while.

Would I take this thing into battle? Hell no, at least it certainly wouldn't be a first choice but like my Reising and Spitfire it is sure fun to shoot and great to have in the collection.

The original rounds I made used 200gr Sierra but those were just too expensive to buy in 50 round boxes so I bought some Remington 185gr core lok in 500 quanity from Midway. I was a little worried that they would be too light to cycle the gun and that they were not seating far enough down in the case mouth but I upped the 3100 powder to 48/49gr for the 185 gr bullet and they seem to feed and run OK. I also found OAL is very important as if too short the rounds will bind in the magazine. I ran through about 150 rounds with one failure to extract and consider this ammo test shoot a success so loaded up all the brass I had to the above specs.

IIRC, this thing had a very slow cyclic ROF - something like 240-250 rds per minute?
I can't recall anything else ever being that slow?

240-250 rds per minute, that's right. This is due to its long recoil barrel and a specific design never used in an other weapon.

Hello Edmond,
Perhaps you have already done so and I am ignoratnt of this, but you should write a book or journal of your experience, knowledge, thoughts, etc. regarding not only the French Arms industry, but arms in general and relative historical background. Not to flatter you, but your body of knowledge is a treasure to be preserved for both present and future time. If you indeed already have done all of this, forgive my ignorance and is that work available?? Take care,
martin

Thank you. Not done yet. I was thinking of writing something once retired but that would not be a bad idea to write some articles. Until now, I have had great pleasure to share with fellow forum members.

I agree Edmond, write the book and perhaps make it the millitary guns edition of the Ar book of hunting , it would sell here and elsewhere also .

You has lots of knowledge and its fun to read your threads.

Thank you. The idea worths being considered.

How did they keep the mud out of that open sided magazine? WWI was probably the muddiest war of all time.

THere was a magazine cover. the CSRG 1915 had been designed before WW1 and the Trench War was unforeseen. The openings allowed the shooter and assistant gunner to check for ammo.

up

Edmund -

I am so impressed by your in-depth knowledge of Euro firearms, particularly of course the French ones, it leaves me overawed!

I have owned several French rifles, and still have my MAS 36. I have a B-Square "no-drill" scope mount on mine, and with a 4X scope and Prvi Partisan ball ammunition, it easily shoots 1 MOA (and smaller) 5 shot groups at 100 yards, just as it came from the factory (except for the scope).

The trigger pull must have been around 9-11 pounds when I got it, but dry-firing it about 300 times smoothed the bolt and lightened the trigger. The trigger pull is still long by modern sporting standards, but now only about 5 pounds...a very manageable weight for a combat rifle...and with more shooting may get a bit lighter. If not, changing the spring is simple, but I prefer to leave it "as issued".

It is also a relatively light and short rifle, and easy to carry.

My experience with French rifles is that the military ones are a bit Ugly by today's concepts of beauty, but they are bone-simple designs, enormously strong, and almost never break. (Not many bolt rifles of any era have forward swept bolt handles, but although it looks strange, it works gloriously well.)

My Franchettes and my late Darne shotgun are NOT ugly, but they're a whole different kettle of chowder.

Anyway, I think you owe it to history to write your book on French small arms before God or the Devil grabs you away from us unexpectedly.

PLEASE. I would order 6 copies immediately (if hardbound), for myself and my shooting friends.