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I have a question about SKS's. What cartridges could they be rebarreled too? In other words what pressures would they be able to withstand. How tough is that action? The reason I ask is I would be interested in chambering one for the 6.5 Grendel, the 6.8 Rem, the 6 PPC and or the 22 PPC. Anyone know? Max | ||
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None of the above would be practical in a rebarrelled SKS... at least none that would feed through the magazine.   | |||
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I already tried a 6.5 Grendel and it feeds. Of course it won't enter the chamber all the way being fat, but fit the mag lips beautiful, and fed without a hitch. That part I'm not worried about. I want to know if the action is strong enough. Max | |||
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So, you're basing your tests on feeding a 6.5 Grendel that WON'T feed into a 7.62 x 39 chamber?!!!   Short answer, ...... keep an "eye out" on the difference in the chamber pressures between those two cartridges!   | |||
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No, I'm just saying the SKS I have will feed a 6.5 Grendel and it fits the magazine pretty darn good. Again, I want to know how strong these actions really are. I would never chamber one and fire it on the pretense that a cartridge feeds from it's magazine. I have to know the limits of it's action. Max | |||
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What 6.5 Grendel load does that? OAL?!!  | |||
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2.265 inches. Don't forget this was made up for use in an AR15 magazine. The rounds I tried in my SKS were loaded with 120 gr Speer bullets to the OAL that functions in my AR15 6.5 Grendel. Don't worry about OAL or feeding. I want to know the limits of the actions strength. If you don't know please quit wasting my time with feeding, OAL's, etc. Max By the way that's the max the OAL can be, not that they are loaded to that. That 120 gr was not too long for the SKS magazine. | |||
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Sorry, I didn't mean to "waste your time" answering your question! Look at pressures of the standard 7.62x39 vs. 6.5 Grendel! I just found this a very strange question from someone who already claims to have a Grendel in AR15!  | |||
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I do have a 6.5 Grendel AR15, and there are a lot of people out there that don't think the bolts are really strong enough for them. Being the 6.8 and 6.5 have a larger head diameter then the 5.56, there is more bolt thrust. That's another story. I know the SKS is rated around 45,000 psi. That doesn't mean a whole lot when you look at all the 91, 93, 94, 95, 96, and 98 Mauser actions that have been chambered for cartridges way beyond the pressure limits of the original rounds they were designed for. The SKS action is very similar to the anti-tank rifle that Siminov designed and I'll bet it will take alot more the 45,000 psi. What I'm asking is has anyone chambered one of these for anything else? I don't know if you know, but there are people out there chambering Mini 14's to 6.5 Grendel and there are those asking questions to chamber AK's to the same round. I figured since SKS's are fairly cheap that they would be ideal to play around with, but I want to do it safely. I didn't mean to offend you by the last post, but you kept on about OAL and such, I'm not worried in that at the least. I want to know what the action can really handle. Max | |||
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So this means the SKS action can handle the pressures of the Mini-14 action?!!! NO, the Mini-14 action can handle much higher pressures than the SKS action. 6.5 Grendel in the SKS? I wouldn't do it! Not practical.... not safe. Makes no sense!
Well then, YOU go for it, MaxPayne! | |||
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lol, you read my posts entirely wrong. I only mentioned the Mini 14 to show the interest in chambering them in different calibers, not to say that if they can handle it, the SKS can handle it, not at all. What I'm trying to find out is what the SKS can handle besides the 7.62x39. You seem hell bent on just running me off. Now tell me why you don't think the SKS can handle a 6.5 Grendel? Can any SKS blowups come to mine for you? If so explain. Max | |||
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If you've got the money there is probably some 'smith out there that has the time! I wouldn't want to say it can't be done but it will certainly require a deep checkbook. I've never even heard of anybody rebarreling SKS to 5.45x39, let alone to some high pressure, larger case caliber. When you get it all done and functional please post some photos for us to see! Perhaps even a link to a video of a ten-shot string rapid fire. (or maybe 6 or 8 shot?) | |||
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For your information the 6.5 Grendel is not as high pressure as the 5.56. I do my own gunsmith work, all I need is a barrel blank and chamber reamer. I'm must trying to find out how much the action can really stand. Max | |||
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Oh?!!! | |||
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With Max being the 'smith on this simplifies the whole deal. Dealing with the proper barrel contours, gas system adjustments, and proper recoil springs will be a snap. | |||
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Matt, the barrels on the SKS are just stepped, not tappered, and the gas block and front sight, as well as the rear sight are just pressed on and pinned. The recoil spring is no big deal as in my opinion it's not really a "recoil" spring, but a spring to return the bolt to battery while stripping another round from the magazine. The big deal would be getting the gas port the right size. On these AR15 that are converted to 6.8 Rem and 6.5 Grendel...the recoil spring nor the buffer are changed. But I still need to know how much the little SKS is able to withstand. Max | |||
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Max, I would NOT consider that SKS action safe with pressures much over 45K PSI. I like experimenting too, but I would rather use a CZ 527 or a Mini-Mauser action for those cartridges you listed...... However, I will admit I have not done any Ackley-style blowup tests to see what it takes to destroy an SKS. Plus, I suspect that in view of the many countries that made them that some are stronger than others, due to metallurgy alone, if not workmanship, just as is the case with military M98 Mauser actions. (Not aware of any such tests on the SKS either. Sorry I could not have been more helpful. I have noted that, from time to time, there are some posters on this site who seem more motivated to give other posters a hard time than to answer a legitimate question. Over the years, I have often thought of using other rounds, pehaps even an "improved" round of several different potential calibers, in actions made for the 7.62X39mm... A pretty interesting idea, actually!) "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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Pffft!  | |||
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If you load for the cartridge you shoot in the SKS you can make the pressure what you need. The 7.62X39 is a faily high pressure round. The Speer manual #12 dated 1994 lists the SAAMI MAXIMUM AVERAGE PRESSURE AS 50,000 CUP. It lists the their 22 PPC loads at 55,000 PSI (note different units and NOT SAAMI) The list no pressure for the 6MM PPC. Considering those 2 are wildcats, you can set your own pressure. The same manual lists the .308 Win at 52,000 CUP for comparison of pressures One think to think about is the firing pin in the SKS. Make sure you don't create a potential for a slam fire. From Wikipedia 6 mm PPC. Based on the .220 Russian, which is in turn based on the 7.62 x 39 mm assault rifle cartridge. The 6 mm PPC was developed in 1975 specifically for benchrest shooting. While it is anything but common anywhere else, the 6 mm PPC unseated the .222 Remington from its 20 year spot as the best benchrest cartridge available. Chambered only in single-shot rifles due to its short, fat case and sharp shoulder angle, the 6 mm PPC is still going strong in benchrest after 30 years. You might consider a case that the 7.62X39 is the parent of the .220 Russian. More from Wikipedia Second (and later) generation wildcats Some wildcats are based not on commercial rounds, but on other successful wildcats. The .308 x 1.5" Barnes, a wildcat made by simply necking a .308 Winchester back to 1.5 inches in length (38.1 mm) is probably the best example of a wildcat that has spawned many other successful wildcats. The .308 x 1.5" case is available from a number of case manufacturers, and differs from a homemade .308 x 1.5" in that it has a small primer pocket, where the original .308 Winchester case has a larger primer pocket (the smaller primer is more suited to the smaller case capacity of the short round). There are at least 8 wildcats that are made from the small primer .308 x 1.5" brass, including some very successful benchrest rounds, including the Benchrest Remington family of cartridges, .22 BR, 6 mm BR, 6.5 mm BR, 7 mm BR, .30 BR. Another example is the .220 Russian, based on the 7.62 x 39 mm. Since nearly all 7 .62 x 39 mm ammunition made in the 1970s used the complex to reload Berdan priming, and often steel cases, it made a poor choice for wildcatting. The .220 Russian, however, was and still is readily available in Boxer primed, brass cases of high quality. The .220 Russian is still the parent cartridge of choice for the PPC line of cartridges, such as the .22 PPC and 6mm PPC, even though there are far more PPC chambered firearms avaialable than .220 Russian chamberings. | |||
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The 6.5 Grendel is designed off the PPC cartridge, looks just bout like a 6PPC necked up to 6.5. The shoulder is slightly more forward then the 6PPC. In the AR15 the 6.5 Grendel has a lower pressure ceiling then if it were used in a bolt action rifle. Also in a bolt action rifle the bullet can be loaded out to utilize the full potential of the powder capacity. The limiting pressure factor in the AR15 I believe is the bolt. That is being worked on. So if the 6.5 Grendel is kept at AR15 6.5 Grendel pressures it appears then that it may work. As may work I mean not in the mechanics of it, as that will work, I mean in that the action would hold up. Max | |||
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Oh? Says who? | |||
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A bunch of people. You know the reason that a 308, or 260, or 243 isn't built on an AR15,but rather an AR10? Not because it won't fit, because the bolt can't take those rounds. That may be soon to change. In fact, Bill Alexander, the manufacturer of the 6.5 Grendel, has designed a new bolt for the 6.5 Grendel, claiming the 7.62x39 bolts aren't suitable. Well that may all change, MGI is going to manufacture a new AR15 out of an entirely different metal that is much stronger then is currently used. It will take the AR15 to new levels in performance rounds. There are alot of folks involved with where the AR15 is going. Back to that bolt in the 6.5 Grendel. Alexander deliberatly had the pressure ceiling of the 6.5 Grendel loaded lower, not to exceed I believe 50,00 psi to give the bolt a longer life. His motive for the 6.5 isn't a varmint round, his intention is for military and police used, so that action has to survive. Cutting the face open larger for the bigger diameter of the 7.62x39 casehead takes a lot out of that bolt. This goes for the 6.8 Rem too. Remington in fact has downloaded their initial 6.8 factory ammo too. Back to that new bolt from MGI. If that evolves look for something like the 300 WSSM mag on an AR15 platform. Max | |||
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Magazine/OAL cartridge length?!!!  | |||
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quote: A bunch of people. You know the reason that a 308, or 260, or 243 isn't built on an AR15,but rather an AR10? Magazine/OAL cartridge length?!!! You know "Man", you post a lot but you don't really say much. And what you say isn't really worth the effort of reading. As El Deguello said "I have noted that, from time to time, there are some posters on this site who seem more motivated to give other posters a hard time than to answer a legitimate question." If you just want to vent why not go here instead? https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/3811043 Hey Max? The rifles are cheap, just slap on a barrel, make a "Blue Pill" and use your tunnel and long, long, wire. What you have to lose? It'd be an intresting experiment. Regards, Eric "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 Lost once in the shuffle, member since 2000. | |||
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Eric, That's what I've been thinking. They are cheap. May have to do that. DaMan,..the point was talking about the bolt strength or lack there of. An AR15 with a redesigned lower half for 308 would be smaller and lighter then an AR10. They make all kind of uppers and lowers for AR15 now, from side cocking bolt handles, to steel upper and lowers, so making a 308 length one is no problem. Max | |||
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I'm confused, I must confess. We have had about forty-eleven replies to this thread worried about the cartridge feeding through the mag and action of the SKS - my question: If the 6.5 Grendel is nothing more than a 7.62X39 necked and squared then why would it not feed through the mag of the SKS????? I quote: (From http://www.65grendel.com/ "For those of you who haven’t heard of the 6.5 Grendel, it’s a relatively new 6.5x39 cartridge based roughly on the Russian 7.62x39. It was designed to give AR10 ballistics in an AR15 package. Originally designed around a 123gr Lapua Scenar (.547 BC) launched at 2610 fps in a 24" barrel, the 6.5 Grendel can shoot flatter and drift less in wind at 800 yards than the .30-06’s heir: 7.62 NATO M80, M852, and M118LR. However, short-barreled 7.62 NATO weapons must contend with excessive muzzle blast and recoil, making them less controllable in the close-in situations in which short-barreled weapons are called for. Alexander Arms has just released two 6.5 Grendel tactical models, the Tactical 16 (T16) and the Tactical 14 (T14). The T16 is a 16" midlength rifle and the T14 is basically a 14.5" M4 carbine clone chambered for the 6.5 Grendel." I would think this would be a pure-OD son of a bitch in a short barreled gun, as mentined, and I sure would not want to shoot it without mucho ear protection. Perhaps this is why I am not so much of an auto-loader fan. Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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I'm not worried about it feeding through the magazine of a SKS, I know it will feed...I tried it. What amazed me was the 6.5 is a lot straighter walled cartridge then the 7.62x39, but yet it fit the SKS feed lips perfectly. Now on a AR15 if you use a 556 magazine with the 6.5, you can see as the top cartridge lays there that it's not entirely in contact with the total length of the feed lips, or should I call them cartridge retaining lips. A 5.56 mag will work with some tweating. I have a 22 inch barrel 6.5 AR15 and the muzzle blast is pretty mild. Certainly not as ear splitting then a 6.5 Swede. I'd say mine is pretty much like a 5.56 noise wise. Firt the bullet isn't as fast as a 5.56 bullet so the sonic crack won't be as loud. I believe just about any rifle cartridge fired in a very short barreled rifle, especially with a muzzle break, it going to be loud anyways. Hey, one of the things that intimidated the Germans about the Russian PPHsp submachinegun in WWII, besides it large capacity drum magazine, was the blasted noise the SOB made...that little 7.62x25 round is loud. Max | |||
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MaxPayne; it would seem to me that the 6.5 Grendel would produce LESS bolt thrust than the 7.62x39 if both were loaded to the same pressures. The 7.62 has a lot of taper to the case, about .049 smaller at the shoulder than at the base, and the Grendel is a necked down and improved version of this same case. Looks like a fun project for you, and with a Yugo sks equiped with a gas cut off you could have a straight pull repeater with no "present" worries about the gas system. Just a thought Scot | |||
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Accuracy of SKS I have done glass bed, drilled and tapped scope mount, run single shot no gas, concentric ammo, 40X scope, and still I cannot get accuracy with an SKS. I give up. Overloaded SKS I have overloaded a Yugo with Sierra 2310 180 gr bullet, 22.5 gr W296, 2.19" OAL. This pierced the primer and the firing pin was very bent and ruined. I replaced the firing pin with a Romanian pin from AIM, which has a very different shape, but works. Mausers, Ruger #1s, 91/30s, AR15s, etc are stronger than the brass. SKSs, CZ52s, thin walled 38 specials, old break top Iver Johnsons, etc are not. What does it all mean? The SKS is a $100 rifle that is already optomised for what it is. If you want accuracy and range, get the $500 semi auto rifle, the AR15. You can spend your time polishing a turd, but I will spend my gunsmithing time on Mausers. | |||
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Well I must be lucky then. My Yugo was unissued. I cleaned all the grenade launching junk off including the muzzle device and the bayonet. I too glass bedded it. I worked the trigger over also. I put a dedicated scope mount on it, screwed and locktited to the receiver, not the loose dust cover. My scope is a compact 2.5x8. I'm loading the Lee 312 155 cast bullet that is 155grs over 26.5 grs of 4895 powder. I don't weigh or cull the bullets, just visibly inspect them and load them. It will start to chew a 5/8 inch hole at 100 yards off the bench and have a flyer to open it up. I may be able to prevent that by weighing the bullets and more careful reloading. I've never tried jacketed bullets out of it. I disagree that it's not brute strong. The action is designed from scaling down an anti-tank rifle action. It's not a whole lot different then a FN 49 or FN LAR. That load you shot was plenty hot alright, but it didn't really wreck the bolt or the chamber. Sounds like the gas venting through the pierced primer bent the firing pin. That doesn't show a weakness in the action. AR15's aren't as strong as a bolt rifle in the same caliber. As to whether they are stronger then an SKS I don't know. AR15's are plenty strong enough for the 5.56 round, but when you start opening up the bolt face for such rounds as the 6.8 Rem and the 6.5 Grendel you're treading on thin ice trying to push those two to bolt rifle performance. Max | |||
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Eric, Max asked.....
I responded....
Then you chimed in and said.....
Eric, if you would read my post CAREFULLY..... and had an UNDERSTANDING of the differences in the AR-15/M-16 sized actions and AR-10/SR-25 actions........ YOU MIGHT understand what I'm talking about. Sorry, Eric ..... I assumed that the average AR reader would understand what I was talking about without posting an explanation that made them feel like I was talking to someone who was completely clueless to the cartridges and actions being discussed. | |||
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Well "Mr. Man", I seem to have hit a nerve. As to "completly clueless", (I'm not trying to sound pompous or anything), but I've been repairing, building, shooting rifles and pistols for over 45 years. I've worked in Depot level maintainance repairing weapons from pistols to tanks and everything in between. I'm just guessing that I was shooting M-16's when you were in grade school. I've had my research and work published. So I can safely say that my knowledge comes from more than gun magazines. What have you done? And, a whole lot of posts just means that you talk a lot. Regards, Eric "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 Lost once in the shuffle, member since 2000. | |||
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There are a lot of innovative ideas and new AR15 part out there. Heck the flat top receiver is old by comparison. Like the right or left side cocking bolt handles, to exotic uppers and lowers, both made from aluminum, to stainless steel, to carbon fiber. So what I meant about putting a 308 into an AR15 I meant. Being they make all that stuff I mentioned, making an AR15 lower with a bigger magazine well would be no problem. The problem has been how much the bolt can take in the AR15 platform and that may be solved now as I mentioned about MGI's new bolt that is suppose to come out. Max | |||
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Love to see it! NO!!! Looks like I hit the nerve, Eric! Where can I find your research, Eric?!! | |||
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Handloader Magazine, October 1999, issue 201, page 60, relating to reloading the 7.62x25 cartridge. Any thing else? Regards, Eric "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 Lost once in the shuffle, member since 2000. | |||
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