Thinking about getting a carbine. The Beretta Cx4 Storm looks interesting and want to know how it compares to the AR15types w/16" barrel. Would be very informative to hear from those with military experience. I plan to use this as a defense weapon (100yrds or less) and want to know how well it would do in real close quarters (10yrds or less). May use it for the occasional Coyote in which the 223Rem would make alot of sense. With heavier bullets I would think the 40S&W might be a good defense round in this gun, but I have not ruled out the 9mm. Experienced advice as to which gun, which cartridge, and their limitations would be very welcome. If their are other obvious choices, I am open to hear about them.

Deke.

Deke, if you've made up your mind that you want a pistol caliber carbine, I'd recommend the Beretta over the AR-15.

The Beretta was designed as a pistol caliber carbine from the ground up. The AR-15 was designed around the 5.56x45mm (.223 Rem.) round. The pistol calibers in the AR-15 were added as an afterthought.

The Beretta looks pretty slick. What do they cost?

Is there any reason you don't want to go with the .223 Rem in the AR-15? The long range (coyote) accuracy is sure to be better than any pistol caliber carbine.

DaMan,

The best way I can think to describe this gun's use is a camp/ranch gun, mostly close quarters defense, to a poacher (w/bad aim) who takes a pop at me from a 100yrds out (this actually happened to 2 friends of mine on two separate occasions 20yrs ago, 1 poacher got away, the other lost his life for his foolishness), not to mention the odd Coyote. Of course the Beretta is not available in a 223. If I go Berretta, I probably favor the 40S&W since it has more velocity/range/energy than the 9mm and 45ACP, but really not sure at this point.

Deke.

Deke,
Limiting respondents to those with military experience probably isn't a great idea.... Military personnel are pretty much stuck with what they are given, although we do tend to lament about our wishes.

That being said anything built on an AR/M16 platform is best kept "standard" or prebuilt in the configuration you are specifically looking for. You can buy "kits" that include all but the lower receiver and those will also be timed correctly.

From what you've said so far I will make 2 suggestions:

1) If you want something in a pistol caliber go with the CX4, it's built from the ground up for pistol calibers. Caliber is your choice, in my limited experience the .40 S&W is less ammo finicky.

2) If you go with an AR get a midlength carbine with the 16" barrel, the placement of the gas block farther out than most other carbines resolves a lot of issues.

Good luck in whatever you choose,
Bob

GunnyBob,

Good advice. How does a 223Rem compare against the 40S&W as a defense round (one or the other will probably dictate the gun). I know the 223Rem has more range, but I am talking inside a 100yrds, most likely within 10yrds. I believe that energy is one thing (which the 223 has the most by far), but at close range the wider heavier bullet certainly has its merits. I know that there is alot out there when it comes to light weight higher velocity/energy vs high weight lower velocity/energy. Overpenetration whether it be the bad guy or a plaster wall is also a consideration. What do you think?

BTW, like gunny said, I should not limit this to the military folks. Would be very interested in others advice who have already gone through this thought process. I am sure that there is alot of LEO's with very good advice on this subject.

Deke.

In what you are looking for I would probably look very seriously at a pistol caliber carbine. 100yds is stretching it a bit, but not horribly, you should easily get a decent trajectory curve out of a 16" barrel (ability to hit 6" target from 0 to 100 yards without sight adjustment).

I would also pick the pistol caliber carbine as it can be loaded with mid- or heavy-weight JHPs which are less likely to "overpenetrate". You aren't likely to be dealing with threats wearing body armor so the penetration capabilities of a higher velocity round is unnecessary. What you do need is a bullet of reasonable size that will expand and transfer a lot of energy to the target.

My personal firearm that fills your requirements is an old M1 Carbine. If you have availability of one, or can find one cheap, you might want to consider that as well.

Good Luck,
Bob

Check out the Barrett M468!! Kick ass.

As I said in the other thread, Welcome Back.

The M468 is a nice piece of gear, and I'm not trying to make the buying decision for Deke or limit his budget, but $1200 seems a little steep for somebody who just wants a personal defense carbine vice a full out tactical weapon.

Lot's of things out there will fill the bill for 1/2 the money and all the reliability. As the 6.8 gains acceptance and is chambered by more companies the price will go down.

Bob

The main thing I dislike about most AR's is the weight. They simply weigh too much for a .223. I do have a Kel-tec .223 that is just about right in weight, also folds for easier storage. I don't have the Beretta Storm but do have a Sub 2000 with the Glock 17 mag well in 9mm (I keep 31 round mags in it).

The pistol caliber carbines are really a replacement for a pistol. None of them have the punch of a .223 out of even a 16" barrel. When looked at that way they actually make pretty good sense. With the Sub2000 I get pretty consistant 2 1/4" groups at 50 yards and under 3" at 100 with the factory iron (plastic) sights. Considering how coarse the sights are that's reasonable, and a lot better than I can shoot a pistol. I'd expect the Beretta to do better.

Inside 50 yards I'd be ok with the pistol caliber carbine, but if I thought there was a good chance at engagements beyond that I'd go for the .223. The .223 runs around 900-1100 pounds of energy at 100 yards, that's more than twice what the pistol rounds have at the muzzle.

I'd really look at a SU-16 C or CA model, they have much better iron sights than my "A" model. It's light weight, accurate enough for your use, takes standard AR mags.

In my latest Shotgun News I see that Model 1 Sales is marketing 6.8mm uppers and kits for basically the same price as a .223 upper/kit.

This is not an endorsement of the company or product mentioned. I have no experience with either.

Bob

Oops! I've done a lot of reading about the M468, but had no idea it was that expensive. Never looked up the price. As Gunny Bob said, that is a little steep. But, there are other companies that are making uppers for the 6.8 also, but I don't know anything about their quality or who makes them. Hope you find what your looking for. One other thought, if you don't mind going up to a .308, then check out the Springfield M1A Scout Rifle, or Socom 16. Just a thought.

All very good posts and I appreciate them. The .308 is just too much for home defense (could easily shoot clean through my house and the neighbor's house with that one). I do wonder about the 223Rem for home defense, with light bullets will it overpenetrate, with light bullets how does it compare to a powerful pistol caliber at close range when it comes to actually knocking the bad guy down and keeping him down? The SU16 looks neat, but I wonder how sturdy it feels with the fold out forend/bipod folded or out. I have a Kel-Tec P11 and love it so I know that you can be pretty impressed with guns that don't cost much. A modern day M1 carbine is kinda what I am looking for (ammo might be pricey since it is not much in demand???), but have not ruled out the 223Rem. I would also like ammo to be cheap for to practice/plink, with that being said I would say that the 9mm/40S&W/45ACP/223Rem/10mmAuto(if ammo is not too pricey) are the cartridges that ring a bell.

Deke.

Deke,
Sorry if I went a little large on the suggestions there. I misunderstood what you were wanting. I don't know too much about the pistol caliber carbines on the market, but I know that I didnt' like the storm when I fired it. My best advice would be to go get a copy of "Guns For Law Enforcement" Magazine. They print a lot of articles on pistol caliber carbines such as the storm or MP5.

If this is for home defense, forget the .223. It is not a good go to caliber for shooting people. I saw too many insurgents get hit with one in Iraq and get up and run away. I would say go for the .40 or .45.

Despite all the talk you may hear to the contrary...the M1 Carbine is a good little weapon for anything under 100 yards.

During the 1960’s and 70’s the NYPD stake-out squads used them with really good success and a whole bunch of one shot put-downs. They don’t over penetrate and they are easy to handle.

For home defense...it’s really hard to beat a pump shotgun though. Lots of choice in ammo...rounds don’t go flying off into the next county...and just the sound of the action being racked has an enormous psychological effect even if someone has never heard it before.

I personally have used a Ruger 9mm carbine, and have been shooting a Hi-Point 9mm carbine for the last 8 years, and it does a lot more than people expect.

I have successfully defended myself from numerous stationary foodstuffs and canned beverages on many occasions...none of them had a chance. Also bagged a nice deer some years back, a single 147 +p HP round made him flip and drop in the same spot he was shot.

The Beretta looks like an awesome gun, and either caliber would be an excellent choice, the .40 might not shoot so flat, nor would it be as cheap to shoot as the 9mm, but you get a bit more punch. If I remember right, the 180 grain bullet out of a 16" barrel moves at about 1450fps, and that beats a .357, and is awful close to .41 mag performance in an autoloading rifle.

If anyone else has ballistic figure for 9mm/.40 that would be interesting.

Looking at that "Guns For Law Enforcement" magazine is a good idea. Where would I find it? Is there an MP5 (not full auto) available to citizens?

Agree that for up-close, the shotgun is unsurpassed and not an overpenetrator, but in my book does not have effective range over 50yrds and its pattern has too much of a collateral (not precise) effect at longer range.

Don't want to go off on a tangent on the 223Rem because I know this has been argued to death over the last 40yrs, but is the 223Rem that bad of a manstopper (with soft tipped bullets, not steel tipped), is it less favorable in close proximity than a 9mm, if so I have a hard time believing anybody (even our government) could still justify using it? My understanding on the 223Rem (though very limited) is that it is fine under 150yrds. The need for somthing further is where the 6.8 comes into play.....

The ballistics of the 30Carbine are good for what I am looking for. However it appears that commercial ammo is 40%-70% more expensive and I don't want to reload for plinking ammo since it takes too much time (which I have a limited amount of) away from the reloading of my hunting cartridges, but will remain somewhat open.

It looks like the 9mm/40S&W/223Rem have the least expensive commercial ammo that is within my budget. It looks like all of the cheap stuff can be picked up for $95-$125 per 1,000rds.

What about muzzle flash? I would think that the flash from a 9mm vs 223Rem out of a 16" barrel could be much different.

If possible would like to hear more from anyone that has had range time with the Storm and the AR15 in the pistol carbine models.

Deke.

You can find that magazine in just about any bookstore or grocery store magazine rack. Now that I think about it, I think it is called weapons for law enforcement, not guns. An old buddy of mine used to have an MP5, and I think it was semi auto. But, I can't remember for sure, so don't take my word for it.

Hope you find what you're looking for.
Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
DaMan,

The best way I can think to describe this gun's use is a camp/ranch gun, mostly close quarters defense, to a poacher (w/bad aim) who takes a pop at me from a 100yrds out (this actually happened to 2 friends of mine on two separate occasions 20yrs ago, 1 poacher got away, the other lost his life for his foolishness), not to mention the odd Coyote. Of course the Beretta is not available in a 223. If I go Berretta, I probably favor the 40S&W since it has more velocity/range/energy than the 9mm and 45ACP, but really not sure at this point.

Deke.

Deke,

You really need to read the works of a Massab Ayoob now before you go on with the offensive/defensive idea. Such books are "The Truth About Self Protection" and the "In The Gravest Extreme". Perhaps there are newer books.

The bottom line to this is that you don't want to ever shoot anyone. If you do it will be a lasting problem.

The thing to do with poachers is to call the police or game wardens. If you confront one by chance then try to communicate in a non threating way and if your talking to them ask them to leave. Beyond that turn it over to the cops.

As to the guns if you want a semi auto carbine then get one but I would go with the advice that Rick gave on firearms to use a shotgun with bird shot and to turn it over to the law inforcement business.

The 223 16" carbines have a infernal noise. I don't like to be near them. On the other hand this means that they are intimidating.

Guys with a plan like mine have gotten old. Not all the guys who confronted everyone with guns have gotten old. Imagine blasting at some poacher with your superior AR and they retreat only to come back with long range gear! No thanks.

Deke,

Just for your consideration...9mm’s are notorious for over penetrating. There was an incident not too long ago here in LA when a Deputy shot at a guy inside an apartment (and missed) and the round ended up going through the walls of two other apartments before it crashed into something hard enough to stop it. Luckily, it didn’t hit anyone. They have also had several incidents where the 9mm rounds have gone through a suspect and continued on through walls and into other rooms.

I’m all for keeping a gun for self defense...but like Savage99 said...you gotta be aware of the downside also, and pick something suited to the task. For scaring poachers and prowlers at night I would pick a M6 Surefire Flash light over a firearm any day of the week. For daytime use just holding a cell phone to your ear so they can see it will normally make them decide to go elsewhere since they have no idea who you are talking to.

Another direction you may want to look, especially if ammo commanality between a pistol and carbine is not a concern, is at Marlin's lever action carbines. They make decent rifles in .357, .41, and .44 mag. The .357 will shoot .38 Spcl and the .44 Mag will shoot .44 Spcl for less expensive practice.

Any of these rounds will be more effective than an autoloader round and the rifle doesn't have that "tactical/ready for war" look.

On the 9mm, stay away from FMJ ammo for your use. Most likely the best rounds will be 124 or 147 grain HP's, if you can get them subsonic even better. Penetration/expansion results with these loads are the best balance. In fact, on any autoloader cartridge get the mid- to heavy-weight bullet in a HP and try to get subsonic loads if they are available.

And finally, the "5.56 is a piece of shit" debate has been overdone many times. With all it's failings I can attest that it is a damn sight better than the 7.62x39 we faced in Iraq. Steel Slinger, this is not a dig; your mileage may vary. I'm sure if we polled units from all over Iraq we would get very different responses.

Whatever you choose, good luck with it,
Bob

I like the idea of the .38 or .44's, but it comes down to the idea that I don't want to reload these, and they are more expensive than the other ammo.

I understand and agree about the problems with ever shooting someone and admit that it is near the bottom of the list of things I want to do. Thank you for caring enough to bring this into the discussion. Although I admit that I don't know everything on the matter, I have been educated about the law and its impact financially/legally (not to mention the mental side) when deadly force is used. It is also important to note that I am not aware of any one person's plans to do me harm, so I am not reacting out of fear. I have responsibilities to protect myself and my family and I simply look at this as preparing myself accordingly. Some of this is out in the open on private ranch land when I am driving about or hunting Coyotes, and other times it is in close quarters when a LEO is a long ways away. I am looking for a gun that will do both, that my wife and kids could use if they ever needed to (not too hard to handle, etc.), has inexpensive ammo, and will curb the local Coyote population.

The one question that I don't have an answer for is how is the 223Rem when it comes to overpenetration? Based on the high velocity 22's performance on Coyotes, I would think that a VMax or other soft point bullet would be okay. How are the soft point 223's on drywall or plaster over wood stud framed walls (do these bullets fragment to the point where they won't pass through more than one or two walls, etc.?)? How much velocity/energy/effectiveness do you lose when using the 223Rem in a 12" or 16" barrel and does this loss in velocity have a significant effect on overpenetration (bullet fails to fragment and overpenetrates, etc.)?

Deke.

Deke,

Not sure about your penetration questions because there are so many variables at play, but as far as velocity loss in concerned I recently did some chronograph tests on the 62 grain green-tip military stuff out of an 20†AR and an 14.5†M4 and the loss averaged out to about 140 FPS. Never fired one, but I would imagine that the muzzle blast from a 12 incher would be pretty severe.

You can count on an honest 2,850 to 2,950 fps from a short barreled .223 using that weight range bullet. That’s pretty fast...and depending upon the bullet type I would assume that any bullet at that speed would not have much problem punching through most house walls unless it happend to hit a stud or some conduit or something.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Some of this is out in the open on private ranch land when I am driving about or hunting Coyotes, and other times it is in close quarters when a LEO is a long ways away.

Good discussion Deke. You seem to understand as well as anyone that the best gun for your safety is one that you don't have to fire.

Thus if confronted that you retreat and do not confront is important. The fact that you are showing an AR, for instance, may intimidate and that's all that you want to do.

Another piece of gear, if used just right, is a camera. Take a picture of the poachers at any range when they are not looking. Don't be seen doing this however. Pictures of the vehicles parked in the area are good too.

Showing these pictures is like a thousand words to law inforcement.

Since you are interested in coyotes, I would say that you have a strong case for a .223. I would expect those light varmint bullets to disintegrate pretty quickly, but I don’t have a .223, so I cannot say. I plan to compare 90 gr Sierras to standard 150 grain bullets in my FAL, but it would still not provide what you would want to know about operating an AR inside. Suffice to say, penetration inside would be a concern of mine with anything short of birdshot. It would be good to look over whatever your plans are in the event of an intruder and consider bedroom walls behind a potential target as “no-fire†zones. Where I live now, the master bedroom is down the main hall and no intruder is likely to be between me and any sleeping guests. Again, I cannot say for absolute certain, but I do not see varmint bullets going through a wall an endangering neighbors. If you live in an apartment, that may be a different issue.

What ranges do you usually shoot coyotes at? I would expect a .223 with a low magnification scope and good set of backup sights to be a great option. My own experience is in a heavily wooded area and ranges are close and I like for things to go down fast. I really like carrying my Winchester ‘94 Trapper in 45 Colt. It is the most compact rifle of any I own, including a Ruger 10/22. I picked up a collapsible fishing pole carrier that will barely hold the 10/22 but fits the Trapper like a charm. It also has a couple of side pockets, one large enough for my Ruger Bisley 45 Colt and holster, etc, and another for ammo. Takes up very little space (would be great for behind the seat in a truck) and trunk-to-trail is quick.

With that in mind, the Cx4 looks very attractive as it looks like there are precious few offerings that compact that don’t require special permits. If you have (or are looking for) a pistol, then a matching carbine would be a very attractive offering. They can probably be carried a little more unobtrusively and be less of a bother to you.

It looks like I am favoring the 223. I figure with 40gr VMax's it will do well on Coyotes (my tipical shot is 150yrds, but can be longer) and I don't think it will overpenetrate walls. However, I agree with the "don't shoot" zones, but probably need to come up with a home defense plan.

I am also leaning hard towards the Kel-Tec SU16 (B, C, or CA model) with quick release 2-7x Leupold scope setup that I use on my hunting rifles. The Kel-Tec is very light and stowable, but does not feel flimsy. The AR's are just too heavy for what I am looking for, and believe it or not, they seem to be looser than the Kel-Tec.

Deke.

quote:

The AR's are just too heavy for what I am looking for, and believe it or not, they seem to be looser than the Kel-Tec.

Deke, I've seen the Kel-Tec but haven't heard how they do accuracy wise.

The AR-15 type rifles are very accurate. If they've got a decent barrel, they shoot well.... even if you get a sloppy one that rattles.

You might consider a Corbon 15 if weight is a major consideration. The one pictured here weighs 4.3 lbs. !

PS - I'm glad you've come around to the .223 Rem. You can get TAP ammo for your home defence loads to cut down on over-penetration.

.223 Rem. Hornady TAP

I have heard that the Kel-Tec's are not as accurate as the tricked AR's, but not too many semi-autos are, I have also heard that the Kel-Tec is more accurate than the mini-14, depending on the individual rifle/ammo anywhere from sub 1 to 2moa is standard.

That TAP ammo looks interesting. The 40gr and 55gr bullets look like VMax's, anybody know if these are VMax's?

Deke.

quote:

I have heard that the Kel-Tec's are not as accurate as the tricked AR's, but not too many semi-autos are, I have also heard that the Kel-Tec is more accurate than the mini-14, depending on the individual rifle/ammo anywhere from sub 1 to 2moa is standard.

Deke, I've got to admit....the Kel-Tecs look very interesting! And they are less expensive than an AR-15. Gas system looks very similar to the AK-47.

I really like sights on the C or CA model better (even though I have an A model). My SU-16 A is a 1.5-2" gun with a scope or red dot with the Black hills 52 gr. reloaded ammo. I tried a couple of other brands and weights and none would do better in my particular rifle.

While not up to a trick AR, in my experience they are much more accurate than an out of the box mini-14. The only two I've shot (both nearly new) were 2.5-3" guns.

Just talked to Hornady and they use the VMax for the 40gr and 55gr TAP ammo. Looks like in a 16" barrel the 40gr ammo has been confirmed not to penetrate though 2-layers of sheetrock where the 55gr will. The same would apply to a Coyote.

Deke.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
Just talked to Hornady and they use the VMax for the 40gr and 55gr TAP ammo. Looks like in a 16" barrel the 40gr ammo has been confirmed not to penetrate though 2-layers of sheetrock where the 55gr will. The same would apply to a Coyote.

Deke.

Deke, the .223 TAP ammo has reduced penetration.... but I don't think that 2-layers of sheetrock could stop the 40 grain bullet.

Two layers of sheetrock won't even stop any normal pistol bullet (9mm Para., .40S&W, 45ACP).

I would expect a normal pistol 9mm/40S&W/45ACP to out penetrate a high velocity lightly constructed bullet. I will have to do my own tests.

Deke.

quote:

would expect a normal pistol 9mm/40S&W/45ACP to out penetrate a high velocity lightly constructed bullet. I will have to do my own tests.

It all depends on what the bullet is penetrating!

A high velocity lightly constructed bullet will cut through a Kevlar vest like a hot knife through butter. A .45ACP will not.

I agree with you. Actually seeing (by actual testing) and knowing what your chosen cartridge will and won't penetrate is important.

DaMan,

Good points.

Deke.

remington is chambering their slide action rifle in a carbine format chambered in .223.

I have a fair amount of experience with most of the carbines mentioned here and have a longer post below to just outline what i know about them. First, however, my general comment is that the difference between home defense and "range" security is tough to bridge because of the distances and safety factors involved. Regardless of any conclusions you may wishto draw from the post on carbines below, I would recommend a compact shotgun for home defense and a Rem 7600 pump in 243 for range securuty/varminting (10 shot magazine).

Now for the carbine post::

I have carbines in 223 (SU16, AR M4, Bushmaster Bull pup) 40 S&W (Beretta Storm, Ruger P4, HI-Point), (9mm SUB2000, HI-point) 45 ACP (Storm). I also have the Marlin lever carbines in 44 mag and 357 mag.

I have used all extensively at the range as well in my ballistics lab and have tested proficiency and safety characteristics with novice subjects wanting to use a carbine for home/ranch security.

This type of battery offers strengths and weaknesses all over the map, so here are some observations on each Cartridge in a 16 to 18 inch bbl, followed by each type of carbine:

CHAMBERING

1. 223 - best range (300 yds) and potential accuracy. Gas guns more complex, need more care to be reliable. Inexpensive, quality factory and Mil ammo available. 1 in 9 twist best. 64 gr Winchester Soft point Exceeds MAJOR at 100 yards as does M883 62 grain steel shank FMJ. Lowest recoil except 9mm and 357.

2. 9mm - 100 yd range. Stopper inside of 25 yards. Least expensive ammo. 124 GR XTPs for everything.Lowest recoil.

3. 357 Mag in Marlin - 150 yd range. Stopper inside of 100 yards. Great bullet weight selection. 158 gr plated best in the field. 125 JHPs ONLY in a home.Light recoil.

4. 40 S&W - 100 yard range. Stopper inside of 75 yards. 155 gr HPs best. Use 135 JHPs to avoid overpenetration in a home. Good inexpensive ammo selection. Recoil requires some recovery.

44 Mag in Marlin - 150 yard range. Stopper to 150 yards. 240 gr JHP best. Over penetrates to 100 yards, dangerous in a home.

6. 45 ACP - 75 yard range. Stopper to 75 yards. 200 gr JHP best. Does not overpenetrate.Recoil requires some recovery.

CARBINES:

1. Beretta Storm: Designed from the ground up with this application in mind. 40 and 45 ammo will sting your cheek. Restricted target view with factory sights. Ejector on a spring to allow conversion to left hand - good idea but can break. Not responsive when ordering parts. Best safety features and ergonomics of all tested. 3 MOA.

2. Kel Tec SU16 - Best engineering of a small caliber gas gun to date. No gas tube, just a port driving a piston/rod set up to operate a std AR bolt. Best of the AK and AR15 designs combined. Integral bi-pod and storage for 2 ten rnd mags in stock with ready access. Folds for storage. Light with 1.75 MOA or better out of box. Best with 4X scope and see thru rings in the field. Check brass in a new gun to evaluate how the extractor is cutting the rims…acceleration is brisk and a sharp/new extractor can cut through a rim and leave a case in the chamber. Either dull the extractor with a file or polish the chamber if this is a problem.

3. Kel-Tec Sub2000 – Very light and folds in half for 16 inch storage. 1 in 9 twist. Can be fully loaded in folded condition yet totally safe. Test ammo function to avoid occasional jams. Cannot mount optics or other sights. 3-4 MOA. Comes in 40 but hard to find. Cannot clean bbl from the breach except with Bore Snake.

4. AR 15 – Best with M4 type stock and 16 inch bbl. 1 in 9 twist. Tried and true with 1.5 MOA potential. Many AR accessories available. Extra cost and weight may or may not justify it over the SU16.

5. Bushmaster Bull pup – at 8.5 lbs and with integral internal compensator has the same recoil as a 5 lb 9mm. 21.5 inch bbl and 34 inch LOA. 25M factor sights of limited use over 50 yds. Scope rail is 3 inches above bore axis so canting will string impact left and right. Benched and plum, it is 1.0 MOA out of the box.

6. Hi Point 9mm and 40 S&W – Most reliable (tied with Ruger P4) and least expensive of all semi-autos tested. Best factory sights of all pistol calibers tested. Comes with scope rail you install. Equal to all pistol calibers in 25 yard accuracy. Lowest in overall safety rating due to failure to lock open after last round and cheap safety. Difficult to field strip.

7. Ruger P4 – The strength and reliability of the Hi-Point in a very safe carbine. A bit heavy and slightly longer than the competition. Strongest and toughest of all pistol calibers and quite likely to come up shooting to POI if dropped or used as a club.Very popular with police departments with Ruger side arms. Easy to field strip.

8. Marlin lever carbine – Very strong and reliable. Difficult to manage with 1 hand. 44 mag is too powerful in close and not enough range to justify the recoil and ammo cost. 357 a better choice, particularly with handloads.

Sabot,

I chose the SU16C so it was good to read your post. I have some surplus M193 supposed to arrive end of this week, so I am looking forward to playing with this gun.

Have bought dies on ebay, but will not be able to handload until big game season starts winding down after the first week of November.

Still have not settled on the 40 or 50 Vmax though...... I think both bullets would fragment well on my plaster and wood lath walls. I don't want passthroughs on Coyotes, but I also want somthing that will get to the vitals on any angle hit in the front 1/2.

Deke.

Deke -

Good choice. The 223 is about the only carbine round we discussed that gives you the range you need and can still be used relatively safely for home security with light varmint bullets.

The SU16C is about as light and handy as 223s come. Don't be put off by the lightness, its plenty tough where it counts. Your will find a peep sight mounted on the rail that centers nicely in a see through scope mount. I use this and it is a natural for your applications.

Good shooting!

I bought my son a Beretta Storm in 9mm because he's left handed (it converts to lefty friendly ejection), he had a handgun that used the same magazines, and between the two of us we have a cheap source for 9mm ammo. It's had close to 1000 rounds put through it and functions flawlessly. Well designed and thought out firearm.

I kinda think you're asking one gun to do two very different jobs. The open ranch/coyote thing starts with a 223 and a 308 isn't too shabby either.

Neither is a good general home defense round. Your bird gun would handle that just fine plus its a much better club.