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One of Us |
I went to the range yesterday, started looking for a table, everything was splatered with blood, it was everywere. I was the only person there. It seems that just a while before a guy had a hang fire in a Russian/Negant rifle he had just purchased along with surplus ammo. The range master said he pulled the triger, nothing happened, he opened the bolt, shell roles out in his hand and blows up his hand big time!!!. This guy speaks little if no english, driving a Benz and refuses medical treatment.....the EMTs get it to stop gushing blood and he drives off...Go figure. Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | ||
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Guys at work asked me about a "defective" Browning 1886 lever gun. Took one look at the picture ---the receiver was bowed out on the right side about 3/16 over the loading gate and the loading gate was blown out. The barrel held and the bolt stayed in it. They asked me if it was a defective rifle since it should withstand a double charge. I said "No it was a reloader caused screw up...and you are lucky to have your eyes". | |||
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I would have to say I believe the range-master is probably mistaken about the sequence of events. I can understand his hand being severely damaged if the round went off just as the shooter got the bolt to the unlocked position but had not extracted it from the chamber yet. At that point the cartridge would still be confined and the ignition of the cartridge could drive the Russian rifle's stubby little bolt handle back with enough force to literally tear his thumb almost off. But the round in his hand? Not gonna explode. Not sufficiently confined. Test it yourself. Put a cartridge in a saucepan, cover the sucepan with a sheet of paper. Set the saucepan over a fire and jump behind a tree. Wait til the heat fires the cartridge. It won't even penetrate the paper, nor will it sound like a cartridge firing....more like a big hiss as the powder burns, the case neck expands a little, and the gas pressure escapes, all simultaneously. I'm not actually suggesting you try that, but exactly that and similar "cook-off" tests have been conducted by both the NRA and the ammo manufacturers to meet government info requirements. The cartridges do NOT penetrate even thin paper. Not the bullet or any other part of them. That's why they can be shipped without having to pay hazmat fees. Now, maybe if the Russians loaded the ammo with C-4 especially for some insurgents to steal and use....... | |||
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Yup, I kinda think the rangmaster's take on the event contained a bit of  | |||
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Wrong answer!! Cartridges can and do explode with plenty enough force to kill you dead as a door nail. Military crimped steel case ammo would be especially dangerous with an unchambered hangfire. Remember the Afghan kids who were pulling and "decapping" live small arms ammo in a little outdoor factory?? The primer smacker on their assembly line got out of sequence and blew himself up... Hang fires are best dealt with a long wait followed by an unexposed ejection and swift kick down the range.  | |||
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So true, it can and will....I saw the Video, it was a mess...that guys hand looked like it had been run over by a train. Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | |||
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Death or serious injury from an exploding, unconfined small arms cartridge might be possible, but highly unlikely. Find a copy of Hatcher's Notebook and read Chapter 21, Explosions and Powder Fires. You might learn something. | |||
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Why don'y you just post it cause I can't read...  | |||
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Any military rounds of comblock origin and a few european countries would explode from a hangfire is unconfined because of the tar used to seal the bullet and make it waterproof that makes the pressure build up. and I have seen many a chambered round extracted and ejected manually from an overheated automatic weapon detonates because it was cooking off when ejected. The longest hangfire I experienced was a 8mm Lebel round dated around 1900 that fired after 15 seconds. Part of the powder was left unburnt, bad primer ignition,badly stored ammo in extrem weather conditions. | |||
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I have burned military ammo in a 55 gallon drum and none of it did much more than poof. I have also seen a 30-06 military cartridge shot in the primer with an air rifle. The primer blew out without igniting the powder. In many rifle round the case weighs about the same as the bullet. If the round pops the case will accelerate just as quickly as the bullet. Often the case just ruptures with about causing much acceleration of either component. That said do not put a 12 ga shotshell on the muzzle of a Daisy air rifle, hold it up over your head and pull the trigger. While I was not injured in any way that does not mean you will get the same results twice in a row. | |||
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This thread is another prime example of Monday Morning quarterbacking from a distance and without adequate observation...NO ONE other than the guy with the mangled hand knows what actually happened and he might not know exactly either due to the shock of the incident. There aren't any pictures of the weapon, the ammo, the hand or the people involved in the incident. Not speaking english very well doesn't help the situation and most people go mindless and sh**brained when accidents happen to them or around them unless they happened to be trained to handle emergencies. The rest of the BS about whether or not a cartridge can or will explode and all the "proving" references just proves that no one has heard of "Murphy's Law" or really have their mind in gear. People purport to be experts when they've read one article about a similar incident. What Hatcher did umpteem years ago and how he did his experiment doesn't much equate this incident. And I might add...cooking off a round on the kitchen stove, backyard BBQ or campfire is just about as dumb as you can get, then posting it so someone else can possibly get hurt borders on the criminal. There are just way to many people that put their jaws in gear, or their fingers in the case of the net, before the put their brain in gear. The only thing that can actually be learned from this is...When a hangfire happens, keep the muzzle pointed down range for at least 2 minutes...I was taught to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and lay the weapon on the ground or on a table and step back 3 or 4 paces for at least 30 seconds...THEN jack the round out with the chamber pointed toward the ground and step back quickly again...but I think 2 minutes or more is much safer. All that can be said about this is an accident happened involving a Mosin Nagant rifle and some brand of ammuniton...whether it was of Russian mfg or some other maker wasn't even addressed for certain...and a person was injured in the hand. All the rest in mindless conjecture. | |||
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The point about conjecture on the cause of the occurance is basically correct. The point I was making is that I believe the range officer's tale was also conjecture. As to the testing done by the NRA and the ammo companies, that is not conjecture, whether you wish to believe so or not. As to cooking off the rounds, you need to read the part of the post which says one is not to actually do that himslf. As to "criminal", that is conjecture, and opinion. You are welcome to form and hold both as strongly as you wish, but they are conjecture and opinion with which I sgtrongly disagree. I figure if a guy can't read, he probably won't be deciphering the first part of the post either. If he can reasd, he should use his brain and read the whole thing. As to the asphaltum or varnish making the rifle round "confined" enough to "detonate", all I can say is "piffle! Modern smokeless rifle powder does not "detonate" even when fired in a rifle's chamber. So now you you guys can argue away on it. I think the range officer's report is B.S., and shall until I see some bona fide scientific evidence it is even possible. Have fun. | |||
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Were you able to stay on target that long Edmond? | |||
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You welcome to not read it if you don't like it. You really can't even be sure that it was a MO Nag. It is all hearsay. If you have never done any of the above you don't have to participate. After all you don't know what you are talking about if you have never done it. | |||
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Well, I guess we all know now that you're the expert and Hatcher (and others) didn't know or prove jack shit. I'm relieved. | |||
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IcReAtEdAmAsTeRpIeCe!!!...  Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | |||
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A master piece of what? | |||
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The oratory of verbal youthisism....I think!!! Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | |||
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Well, I'm thoroughly cornfoozled now... | |||
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O by the way, I talked to the range master today. I told him what you maysayers said about him being full of BS....He told me to tell you to Go FONT Your Selves...LOL Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | |||
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Interesting threat. Especially the details on how to set off a shotgun shell with an air rifle. A am glad my kid does not read here... | |||
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My idiot cousins used to attach a copper BB to the primer of a shotgun shell with tape and throw them...  | |||
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I discovered it without Internet. | |||
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Probably before these readers were born... | |||
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If they are younger than 35, yes. | |||
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It was about 1958 and I never did it again. | |||
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Off subject [?] but does shooting dynamite caps with a .22RF qualify one as 'dilbert?' About 2 or of three will explode when hit - I speak from personal experience! Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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Hey, now that reminds me of the good old days. You remember when you could buy 60% Hercules Dinomite and Blasting caps at the hardware store. Me and a buddy tied 6 sticks together and put it in the top of a pine tree that was out in the middle of this grumpy old cods pasture one night. The fuse was about 45 feet long, we lit it at the base of the tree and run...a while later this big boom and flash goes off. No one said a word, about three weeks later I was at the drug store and some of the old cods were standing around the sand box talking about old man Moore had lost his mind...the old man was telling people that a UFO had landed in his field and blown up his tree. Aaa, the good old days!!! Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | |||
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Reloading propellant -- read the label. There's a section that talks about how the container meets reg. spec. for containment and dispersion of ignited powder. Basically the container is designed to let the powder go "pooof" rather than "bang." But a hang-fire in a military round could have most any sort of consequence. Hand injuries, because the hand is profuse with blood vessels, bleed a great deal. Hang-fire on a Mosin . . . let it sit for a minute (as in 60 seconds). Then pull the striker back on the bolt and hit the primer a second time. I've had "duds" that don't shoot on the second strike. But I've never had a "hang-fire" that didn't shoot on the second strike. ------------------- Dumb stuff we used to do as kids: Water pipe "cannon" using match-heads as powder. The match-heads need to be compressed to "boom." And the down-side is that compression of the match-heads will cause them to ignite. -- As amply demonstrated July 4, 1966, right before an ambulance ride to the ER for explosive lacerations to my left hand. Back when you could buy -- as a minor -- dynamite at the hardware store. Three sticks and waterproof blasting caps, wrapped in tire chains and dropped over the side of the canoe in about 50 ft. of water. Besides all the perch and crappie, it coughed up a 6 ft. sturgeon which ended up as a photo on the front page of the local newspaper. | |||
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Damme, I don't think I would have told that one - anyone know what the statute of limitations re dynamiting Sturgeon might be??????  Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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Now thats what I call fishing!!! You know when I was a kid just about every barn had a few sticks laying arround and we played with blasting caps all the time. Every home had a Family Bible in the den or family room, the pages were tattered from were we sat in moms lap while we looked at pictures as she would read to us and tell us the story of how Christ Died, and how Moses parted the sea. There was a gun of some kind in every room with ammo close by and we rode arround in the back of pick up trucks. Our fathers or some male in the family taught respect. You remember when just a kiss from a girl was a mind blowing experiance...I know I cant spell but I have a good memory....What the heck happened to our way of life? Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | |||
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Cartridges explode with shrapnel going in all directions. The bullet head forward, case backwards and brass everywhere else. I know it for a fact. I did a very stupid thing that I no longer consider. I tried to fully seat a primer on my Pro-Jector that was charged with 5.1 grains red dot and a 230 grain bullet. It went off sending brass slicing my wrist on the side and embedding small pieces in both arms. I bleed like a pig being readied for a roast. The range master may be correct about the event. The hard lead bullet head was flattened. It would have easily penetrated soft tissue. Cartridges do explode with force. | |||
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My wife told me I can NOT use her stove. Sorry guys I tried! | |||
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Another one of those "the first liar doesn't stand a chance" stories brought to mind by the dynamite story. A high school bud and I were bored and sneaked into an old long abandoned bottling plant in a small town. In with the rubble, machinery and dust we found an old 2.5 inch bazooka rocket. The nose was dinged up like it was a practice round or a dud. It was not marked but we had to find out. Out to the ranch we went. It was set up a rock on one side of a stock tank. We went around tot he other side of the pond and got down behind the dam and opened fire with our .22s. No joy....nothing happened. We never thought to set it on fire like the can of starting ether we found but that is another story. Finally, unable to detonate it, we tossed it into the water. I have always kept up with current events there in case someone gets the urge to clean the pond out with a Caterpillar.... | |||
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My dad was a drill instructor in the Army, me my sister and mom were lucky, my moms family had money and mom had some interest in Bush Oil Co. We didnt have to grow up on a base and dad was always gone. One day I was in my dads junk room that was usually locked, I knew were he hid the key and I find a smoke grenade. I thought it was a practice grenade....my sister dared me to throw it, you know what happened next. I pull the pin, let go of the lever, it flings off, the cap snaps, I freak out and hurl it out in the back yard. My dad had an old army panel jeep like they used in WWII for a amulance. The grenade roles under it, catches the yard on fire and burns My dads favorite huntin buggy slap up. My mom convinced My dad that one of his Dogs got out and chewed some wires that were hanging down and it was the dogs fault....funny thing, that dog went missing soon after. Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | |||
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 bad advice -eric " . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH | |||
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That's a good one. Those smoke grenades burn pretty good, don't they? My brother and I bought one at a gun show once when we were teenagers (somewhere around late 70s/early 80s). We set it off on one day when our mom was away. It burned a whole right through the asphalt, next to our mom's condo. The asphalt was kind of like a hot cheese pizza. Somehow, she never really noticed. Hell, they'd probably take a kid to jail for that now . . . -eric " . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH | |||
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A friendly reminder about Firecrackers !. Heed the warnings !. Can you now imagine what a cartridge might be capable of !. | |||
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"WOW" That reminds me, many years ago I took a few tabs and drinked some miester. I was watching a porn flick with the sound turned down and had Black Sabath blasting on the stero. I closed my eyes and after a few seconds the room went to spinning and I couldnt open my eyes. I swear to Ozzy I saw the same thing! Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes | |||
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