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12 - 15 November 1942, 68 years ago today it ended. A series of night actions so confused that it was only after the war that the USN learned it had suffered crushing tactical defeats. But it was a strategic victory. The Japanese may have sunk a lot of ships and killed a lot of Sailors, but they didn't complete their missions and bombard the Marines at Henderson field or land reinforcements and supplies.
Some more on Adm Willis Lee, somebody worth learning about.
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CFS, Guadalcanal is one of my favorite topics and also possibly the most misunderstood battle of the Pacific Theater. I wish you would cite the source(s) you quote from. That is always helpful. As to what happened there, it is all a matter of record. Frankly, the U.S. Navy deserted the U.S.M.C. and failed to complete their mission to "land the landing force". When the Navy ran off they had units of Marines still aboard ship, along with vast amounts of fire (ammunition) for all Marine weapons from handgun to cannon. Large quantities of food were also still aboard ship, which resulted in Marines on the 'Canal subsisting eventually on one cup of maggot infested Japanese rice per day. I could go on, but you get the idea. While it is true that the U.S. Navy eventually suffered more casualties than the Marine Corps over the course of the battle, 8/42 thru 11/42 (some say 2/43 was the real end date, but all Marines were off island by then), I would remind sailors that those of their service did not suffer the privations at sea of the Marines on land. They had hot chow and warm racks daily on their ships, unless actively engaged. The only reason the U.S. won at Guadalcanal was due to the intestinal fortitude of the 1st Marine Division, aided by Marine, Navy and Army aviators. Eventually, two U.S. Navy admirals were relieved/transferred primarily as a result of the faulty landing on Guadalcanal. Those are the facts, and they aren't pretty for the U.S. Navy. BTW, in recent years the official records of the IJN and IJA have finally been released and this information has greatly expanded the knowledge base of information related to the Guadalcanal campaign, on land, in the air and at sea. "I like you Navy guys. Every time the Marines have to go somewhere to fight, you guys take us there on your boats." SEMPER FI And I still will buy a beer for any Corpsman or Seabee I meet, and the occasional Navy F-4 Phantom jock. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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There are a lot of facts that aren't pretty for the Navy from the Guadalcanal campaign. Such as the results of the Battle of Savo Island, the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, and Tassafaronga. The USN was badly outclassed when it came to nightfighting. Their torpedoes worked, and ours didn't. Moreover, their torpedoes badly outclassed ours. Unlike our torpedoes, their oxygen-fueled torpedoes had invisible wakes. Their surface torpedoes had a warhead with a 1,080lb. explosive charge and had much longer range at higher speeds: 20,000m @ 48 kts 32,000m @ 40 kts 40,000m @ 36 kts Our destroyer torpedoes had a warhead with an decent 825lb. warhead but with much less range even at lower speeds: 5,500m @ 45 kts 9,150m @ 33 kts 13,700m @ 26 kts Of course, it was sort of a moot point as they ran sufficiently deeper than they were set to run to render the magnetic exploders worthless and if set shallow enough to make contact the firing pins would be crushed so most were duds, anyway. The Japanese gave credit where it was due and said in their experience that US destroyermen always tried to get within range to fire their torpedoes. But that meant they were well within range of Japanese guns, and Japanese torpedoes were already long in the water. These long lance torpedoes caused a lot of ships and Sailors to "desert" the Marines off of Savo island. If that's what you want to call getting sent to the bottom. And you don't have to remind Sailors that we live a lot better than the Marines, normally. I've talked to many guys who served in the Pacific and they all felt bad for the Marines going ashore. Until they had their ship shot out from under them and ended up in the water for hours or days at a time, with no water, getting fried by the sun, trying not to get eaten by sharks while wondering if they'd ever get picked up. Then, after that they never again felt the ground troops really had it any worse than they did. The bottom line is that the Navy never stopped feeding ships into that meatgrinder. It wasn't a question of "deserting" anyone, but a question of scrounging up something to fight with. The "Germany first" concept meant that most new construction, what little was just entering service in the fall of '42, was headed for the Battle of the Atlantic or the Med. Then there was the fact that MacArthur also had a high demand for ships. When you factor in that merchant convoys in the Pacific required destroyer escorts you can see that the ships were stretched pretty thin. There were times when there'd be one operational destroyer as the sole major combatant in the Guadalcanal area. For the entire month of November, and parts of October and December, the Enterprise was the sole operational carrier in the entire Pacific. And these ships may have been considered operational but in reality they were often barely seaworthy. They were just patched up enough to conduct operations. It's simply untrue that the only reason the US won the Battle of Guadalcanal is because of the Marines and the aviators on the island. The Cactus Air Force couldn't counter the Japanese at night. They could have landed troops and supplies, or conducted shore bombardment, and been out of range or at least under friendly fighter cover by dawn. But they had less and less success getting through because even when the USN was getting slaughtered it was preventing them from accomplishing their missions. Even Raizo Tanaka, in a near flawless one-sided tactical victory at Tassafaronga, had to abandon his resupply and reinforcement mission. Primarily because "Tokyo Express" destroyers carried only half their normal ammo load so they could carry more troops and supplies, and some USN ships had just absorbed most of Tanaka's supply and he didn't know how many other ships remained unfought. Regarding the Admirals who were relieved, it's true Ghormley was never the man for the job in the first place. Nimitz flew down to check out the situation and with one look he knew he had to get rid of Ghormley. But Fletcher's case is different. One of the main reasons for his actions is because he expected, and was ultimately correct, that the Japanese would react very strongly to the landing and that he had a carrier battle to get ready for. Adm Turner, in charge of amphibious and supply shipping told Fletcher that all his transports would be unloaded by the end of the second day leaving only 5 cargo ships left to offload. The only progress reports Fletcher got from Turner were that everything was going smoothly. So when he requested to pull out to sea on the 8th, the end of the second day, according to his information all the Marines were ashore and only 5 cargo ships were left. Turner never told Fletcher the facts of his situation. Supplies were piling up on the beach, creating a logjam. Turner gave Fletcher the impression that the opposite was the case. Whether that was just due to lousy communications, I don't know. But apparently when Turner told Vandergrift that he had no choice but to withdraw his ships since the carriers had left, he didn't explain to the Marines that Fletcher was under the impression all the Marines and nearly all their supplies were already ashore. Also Fletcher's ships were very low on fuel. When he arrived at his fueling rendezvous on the 10th some of his destroyers were almost sucking fumes. They were in no shape to conduct battlegroup operations. He didn't believe he was deserting the Marines. He also was acting in accordance with Nimitz's instructions to attrite the enemy but only take calculated risks with his carriers. He had already lost one at Coral Sea, then another at Midway, and now 20% of his aircraft covering the landing with no replacements west of Pearl Harbor. He couldn't take chances and lose another carrier or more aircraft if he was going to fight the Japanese force he was sure would be headed his way. Fletcher met the new threat, the Japanese expeditionary force that was supposed to wipe Henderson Field off the island and destroy the covering fleet, in the Battle of the Eastern Solomons 23-25 August '42 and won. He sank the Ryujo. The Enterprise was damaged in return, but it sent its airwing to Hendeson Field. The Japanese carriers withdrew, and the next day aircraft from Henderson Field mauled the unprotected reinforcement and supply groups, forcing it to withdraw as well. When the Saratoga took a torpedo and had to return to Hawaii for repairs, Nimitz did relieve him of command of the carrier task force, true. But that's because he was no longer in the south west Pacific directing carrier operations & Nimitz was going to leave him with the Saratoga battle group. Adm King didn't appreciate Fletcher's actions at Guadalcanal, though, so he had him transferred to command a naval area in one of the backwaters of the war. By the way, a lot of my sources are print. Discussing the Guadalcanal and Solomon campaigns I rely heavily on CAPT Crenshaw's "South Pacific Destroyer" and Hara Temeiichi's "Japanese Destroyer Captain." Sometimes on Zenzi Orita's "I Boat Captain," but more for info on submarine operations. The earlier articles are an editorial from the Las Vegas Review Journal and a speech as posted on a website, "Never Yet Melted." | |||
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CFS, You clearly have studied the sea war in the Solomons, and probably lots more. Have you ever read the U.S. Army investigative report of Navy and Marine operations on Guadalcanal, published circa 1947? The Army prepared this post war after action report as a "neutral" service who would, it was hoped, bring a non-involved look at the landing and aftermath. It is an outstanding resource for an understanding of what the Navy actions in withdrawal did to those Marines who were landed. I have lost my copy, to my great chagrin, and have not been able to re-locate it on the internet where it could be found some years ago. General Vandegrift, CG 1stMarDiv did object vociferously to the withdrawal of the Navy landing force prior to the disembarkation of all Marine personnel and supplies, to no avail. As I said in my earlier post, the U.S. Navy failed dramatically in their primary mission to "land the landing force"; running from perceived threats of IJN action was not acceptable reason and that was the conclusion reached in the U.S. Army after action report and is why the involved admirals were cashiered. You briefly mention a number of different circumstances involved in the battle of Guadalcanal - all Navy related - most of which I agree you have correct. For instance the capability of the IJN torpedos as compared to those in use by the U.S. Navy. You failed to mention the PT boat squadron, that played instrumental roles as picket boats and assisted in preventing IJA landings. BTW, the IJN landing of reinforcements was really highly successful and could have made a decisive difference in the island battle, had not the IJA officer corps have been so imbued with the code of Bushido. They simply could not transit the jungle from the north end of the island down to the Henderson Field perimeter without decimating their own troops - whose individual value to an IJA officer was next to zero. The U.S. Navy was never able to completely stop the seaborne reinforcement of the island, both supplies and troops, until near the very end. I will gladly cite references tomorrow which you will find worth reading. You still can't change the facts. Semper Fi Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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As promised. Perhaps the most complete work ever done on the battle of Guadalcanal: GUADALCANAL The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle by Richard B. Frank, 1990, Random House, Inc: ISBN 0-394-58875-4 (hc.) ISBN 0 14 01.6561 4 (pbk.) Frank spent ten years writing this account which includes first time translations of Japanese Defense Agency official accounts and declassified U.S. radio intelligence. He covers the battle on land, at sea and in the air. "As darkness enveloped the marines for their second night on the island the situation appeared well in hand. By dawn of August 9, they learned that these moments were short-lived on Guadalcanal." "...what Fletcher's signal on the evening of August 8 leaves clear: he regarded the protection of the carriers as more important than any of his other duties, including his responsibility as Expeditionary Force commander to oversee the success of the landings and to protect the irreplaceable assault shipping and Vandegrift's marines." "...ascribed the retirement to a shortage of fuel in a message to Nimitz on August 9 and the impression stuck in some quarters that low oil bunkers represented the sole, or primary, reason for Fletcher's conduct. This interpretation became a tool to further taint Fletcher's decision, as it later emerged that the carrier groups possessed sufficient fuel to operate for several more days.*" "* The Naval War College Analysis shows that Fletcher's destroyers were 75% full in TG 61.1.1 (the SARATOGA Group), approximately 42% full in TG 61.1.2 (the ENTERPRISE Group) and 44% full in TG 61.1.3 (the WASP Group). The cruisers were all 50% or more full and the carriers remained in good shape with the lowest, ENTERPRISE, with fuel for three more days of operations." Hope you find this helpful. You seem to indicate that you relied on single source documents and I would suggest that is an impossible way to understand the battle as a whole. While I read single sources such as those by Eugene Levie, who were there, you must take caution and understand that they can only speak to that which occurred to them personally or under their control. While this works OK when discussing what one ship did in a sea battle or what one machine gun team did in a specific fire fight and reaches close to perfection in a pilot description of a dogfight, there was always more involved. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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I've never read that Army report. However, as you pointed out earlier a great many sources weren't available at the time.
The Japanese Defense Agency published the volumes that comprise its official history of the Pacific War from the late '60's to the late '70's. To my knowledge most of the volumes still remain untranslated into English. The Army investigators my have been able to have come up with a complete picture of the effects of the withdrawal of the amphibious ships on the Marines. But they wouldn't have had much more of a complete tactical picture than Fletcher had in 1942. The Japanese destroyed a lot of documents before the Americans occupied the country; they were never shy about destroying either embarrassing or incriminating records. And Japanese officers at the time weren't talking if they could possibly help it, and when they had to they were in CYA mode. When I say that two admirals were cashiered due to their actions during the landing at Guadalcanal, I can only conclude you're talking about Fletcher and Ghormley. In Fletcher's case wrongly so. As I mentioned earlier, he wasn't fleeing the Japanese threat. He was moving off to meet it. This was in keeping with his instructions from Nimitz. His primary mission was to confront the Japanese carriers. By doing so he not only supported the Marines on Guadalcanal, but in keeping with the big picture protected the supply lines to New Zealand and Australia. Which was the ultimate objective; the reason they were capturing Guadalcanal in the first place. Turner, on the other hand, who commanded the amphibious ships that hadn't been been offloaded, was fleeing the Japanese threat. Yet he never even was informally reprimanded. On the contrary, he was promoted to other senior amphibious force commands. I haven't mentioned the PT boats or other light forces because they didn't play a major role in the fleet-on-fleet actions that made up the main battles of the Guadalcanal naval campaign. In fact, since the first MTBs arrived in theater in mid-October they hadn't been able to accomplish much of anything. They nearly played a role in the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. They were in Ironbottom Sound when Adm Lee's task force was steaming through, and aboard the Washington they could hear them transmitting location reports in plain English on the units of the task force. Apparently mistaking them for Japanese. Which is why Adm Lee radioed them to "Stand Aside" and identified himself with his Naval Academy nickname. So they weren't really central to my main intended topic. That being that the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal marked one of the major turning points of the war. After losing the battleships Hiei and Kirishima, the IJN never launched a serious attempt to retake the island. After the night of November 14/15 the IJN was entirely on the defensive. They never sent their heavies down to bombard again. The only thing they tried to do was resupply the troops they had on the island. Admiral Tanaka, who's squadron had been in charge of these "Tokyo Express" since before the Battle of Guadalcanal. Never even had encountered these PT boats until early December. On 11 December he lost his first ship to the them, his flagship Teruzuki. Which was the PT's first major success of the whole Guadalcanal and Solomon Islands campaign. Of course, the PTs played a larger role than merely trying to stop the destroyers of the "Tokyo Express;" what the Japanese called the "Nezumi" or rat system of resupply. The idea was that they'd scurry out under the cover of darkness like rats, get the job done, and get under figher cover before dawn before anything the Americans could put in the air could pounce on them like cats. The PTs were ill-equipped to take on destroyers. But the Japanese also used the "ari" or ant system; sending barges creeping down along the coasts of the island chain by night, hiding in coves by day. PT boats could shoot those up easily if they found them. Then there was the "mogura" or mole system in which submarines attempted resupply. The mere presence of PT boats could prevent them from surfacing. And even when the "Tokyo Express" did dump their supplies, PT boats could intercept those supplies. The Japanese would drop off a string of drums roped together. They'd float; their troops were supposed to wade, swim, or boat out to haul them in. But the PT boats could get there first, haul them out to sea, and machine gun them until they sank. But then destroyers could do the same thing, and they also could bombard the Japanese supply dumps on the beach in the morning as they had no motorized transport to haul the supplies inland quickly enough. Destroyers and submarines could only carry a fraction of what the Japanese troops needed; the unescorted barges were completely ineffective. Often the destroyers and subs couldn't complete their missions; no supplies were delivered, as was the case following Tanaka's victory at Tassafaronga. When they did deliver their meager supplies, only a small fraction of it reached their forces. the night Tanaka lost the Teruzuki his destroyers had put 1200 drums into the water; the troops only retrieved 220. This is why the Japanese evacuated Guadalcanal. They couldn't keep their forces supplied. Tanaka recommended Guadalcanal be evacuated in early December; like Fletcher he was wrongly cashiered and sent to shore command in Singapore. But by New Year the IJHQ had arrived at the same conclusion. Naval forces played a huge role in forcing the Japanese to confront the inevitable; they couldn't win on Guadalcanal. | |||
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Fletcher's task force had sufficient fuel to remain near Guadalcanal. He didn't have enough to fight a sea battle. This has been an issue ever since Morison wrote "History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, Volume V: The Struggle for Guadalcanal, August 1942-February 1942" in 1949. I don't know what the Naval War college based its estimates upon, but Morison accused Fletcher of exaggerating his fuel problems based upon convoy fuel consumption. In fact warships use a lot more fuel at higher speeds, when maneuvering in formation and conducting flight operations. When Fletcher arrived at his fuel rendezvous on 10 August, many of his destroyers were in fact at 12-15% capacity. Second, refueling at sea had been introduced to the fleet just prior to WWII. The equipment and procedures for it were still being developed when war broke out. Nobody really was experienced at it, it was a clumsy and lengthy process, and the ships were very vulnerable while attempting it. Even if Fletcher's capital ships had enough fuel to replensish the small boys, there is no way he could have remained near Guadalcanal to do so. I don't rely on single sources. My library is more extensive than that. First person accounts, biographies of Admirals such as Fletcher, Halsey, Nimitz, and Burke, to more technical publications such as Roscoe's "United States Destroyer Operations in World War Two." And what I don't have I've borrowed from other history buffs during my 20 years in. I have to admit I'm heavily influenced by Hara's and Crenshaw's books. Primarily because it's interesting to see what two men who fought ships involved in some of the same engagements witnessed at the time. But then CAPT Crenshaw is a widely ecknowledged expert in a variety of subjects; he wrote the textbook on Naval Shiphandling. He doesn't give just a narrow view solely from his own perspective when writing naval history. He has a new book out, remarkable for a man who graduated from the Naval Academy and entered the fleet before WWII, on the Battle of Tassafaronga which I plan on getting soon. In addition I spent years in Japan doing liaison with the JMSDF, a lot of it at the JDA. I didn't personally access the documents in the historical section, as it wouldn't have done me much good as I don't read Japanese at that high a level. But I worked closely with many who were well versed in its contents and I learned quite a bit from them. | |||
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CFS, You are refusing to address the points I make and provide documentation of, with appropriate citation, including U.S. Naval War College Analysis. Regardless, you continue to insist Fletcher was not at fault, even though as the Expeditionary Force commander his unilateral decision to withdraw the carriers led to the change in Allied fortunes on Guadalcanal. We can't discuss this if you insist on approaching the discussion as a one way street, going your way. You know as well as I that the U.S. Navy deserted their post and failed to complete their mission. Whatever happened after that doesn't change that fact and no amount of obfuscation will change those facts. Consequently I will simply say that I believe, based upon training, education, research and experience, that you are wrong, and leave it at that. Do yourself a favor and read the book I cited, you might learn something. Semper Fi Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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I plan on it. But you might also want to read "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral," which is a far more recent book on Fletcher published by the U.S. Naval Institute Press in 2006. Here's the description:
I'm not entitled to my own facts, but that doesn't mean that there has been no new information uncovered in the 16 years since Frank published his book. It's one of the books I'm relying on. | |||
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Heres link to heavily end-noted 2003 Army War College thesis which goes along way toward summarizing the basis for my disagreement with you about whether or not Fletcher's decision was correct. It's a pdf file, so I won't cut-and-paste much. Here's the abstract:
It's a good read and will save you the price of Lundstrom's book on Fletcher if you don't care to delve in too deeply. I believe I have addressed the points you raised, but in case I wasn't clear perhaps this will make things clearer. There's been quite of bit of scholarship devoted to the issue since the book you recommend was published. It also captures my view that the Navy, even if you disagree with Fletcher's decision, never abandoned the Marines. We've talked of the major combatants and the light forces. WWI flush deck destroyers had been converted into auxiliary personnel carriers; they were resupplying Guadalcanal by 15 August. As to the rest of it:
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Bye the bye, LionHunter, I broke out my copy of "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral" by John B. Lundstrom to review, in order to make sure I'm accurately recalling its contents when I contend Frank Jack Fletcher got a totally undeserved bum rap from history. And for the first time I read the acknowledgements. It may interest you to know that the author asked, among other people, Richard B. Frank to review and critique his manuscript. He is, as you know, the author of GUADALCANAL The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle, the book you recommended to me. Lundstrom makes no bones about it; he is sympathetic towards his subject. So he wanted to make sure historians such as Frank who are/were far more critical of Fletcher would put his thesis to his test. His thesis passed their test. Which is why I hope you'll take a fresh look at the subject. Lundstrom had access to a treasure trove of material that wasn't available to Frank in 1990 when he published his book. Obviously I'm sympathetic to Fletcher. But then I'm influenced by the recent scholarship on the subject, which has basically reversed the consensus on Fletcher. This isn't something that was wholly unforeseen. One of Fletcher's harshest critics, Samuel Elliot Morison, wrote in his 1949 history of the Pacific war that no history written so soon after the conflict could possibly be definitive. New facts would come to light, and those new facts would cast the ones Morison was aware of, which he chose to include or discard based upon his understanding of their importance at the time, in a totally different light. One fact to keep in mind when talking about the events of 1942 was that the playbook was mighty thin. No one had ever fought a carrier war before. The British had carriers, but the Germans didn't. So the conflict between the US and Japan was unprecedented. And the Fleet Marine Force didn't exist before the 1930s. Fleet exercises had never gone well. Guadalcanal was the first test of our amphibious doctrine. Essentially, the thin playbook we did have got tossed out during the war broke and and had to be rewritten. Frank Jack Fletcher was one of the men writing it. Quite successfully I might add. He is the only admiral in history to fight three pitched carrier battles and win every one of them. The Coral Sea was essentially a draw tactically. Midway was an overwhelming tactical success, the Battle of the Eastern Solomons a marginal one. But all of them were strategic victories, as the Japanese were forced to turn away from their objectives and retreat. You say the Navy failed in its mission to land troops and supplies on Guadalcanal. I say the Marines failed to assign sufficient numbers of men to the logistics force. The Navy was getting supplies off the ships and onto the beach in short order. Where it piled up. The Marines couldn't get it inland quickly enough to make room for the Navy to land more supplies. Meanwhile, there were Marine infantrymen going swimming or shooting coconuts for entertainment as they were bored. No one thought to assign them to moving the supplies inland to make room for more supplies that they were later going to need very desperately. As for the men, it isn't so much that ADM Turner failed to land them as he had no intention of landing them. Amphibious doctrine at the time state that the Commander, Amphibious Task Force (Turner) was in command of all subordinate sea, air, and land units. So the Commander, Landing Force (Vandergrift) and all his forces belonged to CATF. No admiral actually ever controlled the disposition of ground forces, leaving that to CLF. But Turner's attitude was that as CATF the Marines, the afloat reserve, belonged to him until he chose to land them. Then they belonged to CLF. But Turner chose not to. This was a bone of contention between him and Vandergrift for months after the original landing. You say Fletcher abandoned his post. I say he was advancing to his post. His job was to confront the enemy fleet. He wasn't fleeing the Japanese threat. He had learned a great deal about the Japanese threat, as well as the strong and weak points of the weapon he had in his hands, during his earlier victories. Consequently he was putting his force in the position where he could use it to his greatest advantage. And that position was definitely not in the confined waters of immediately south of Guadalcanal. One thing that remained true throughout the war was that the fleet that could keep its position secret longest, while detecting the enemy fleet earliest, won. Why on earth would Fletcher keep his task force static in a place where the Japanese would soon detect it if they hadn't already? Essentially, and with all due respect, the Marines' criticism of Fletcher at Guadalcanal amounts to a demand that Fletcher should have used his task force stupidly and wastefully. Fletcher couldn't afford to do that. He had to not only fight the IJN but make sure the Pacific Fleet as it existed at the start of the war still existed in sufficient size until late 1943 when new ships, especially carriers, finally arrived. He was very successful in this regard. He may have lost two carriers, Lexington and Yorktown, but he cost the Japanese six carriers in the exchange. It needs to be pointed out that his immediate successors lost the Wasp and Hornet within the month at no cost to the enemy. Similarly unfounded is the belief that the Navy abandoned the Marines on Guadalcanal. True, based upon the lessons learned from Guadalcanal the Navy would do things differently later in the war, as demonstrated at Leyte, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. But then, as I said, the playbook the Navy and Marines started with had to be tossed and rewritten. When Admiral Willis Augustus Lee took his task force into Ironbottom Sound to confront a vastly superior enemy surface force on 14/15 November 1942, he wasn't out to sink ships just to sink ships. He was out to make sure the battleship Kirishima and heavy cruisers Atago and Takao didn't give the Marines at Henderson field the same kind of pounding the battleships Kongo and Haruna had given them a month earlier. He was also out to ensure the Japanese didn't succeed in landing troops to confront the Marines, and the supplies it'd take to do it. With the strong possibility he'd end up like Admirals Scott and Callaghan did a day or so earlier. Dead on the bottom of Ironbottom Sound. I guess it's a good thing I started this thread. The Marines don't seem to appreciate that effort. Edit: I thought as a postscript I'd add two pertinent bits of information regarding Fletcher. First, Richard Frank not only reviewed Lundstrom's manuscript, and as I mentioned it passed his test, Frank also gives the book high praise:
If you're influenced by Frank's work on the Battle of Guadalcanal, I think it's fair to suggest that before declaring me to be simply wrong about Fletcher to read the book Frank says you really can't understand the Pacific War without. This also would explain why although I've heard of Guadalcanal: The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle I've not really been in a hurry to go out and buy it. If your area of interest is the naval campaign, and more specifically Frank Jack Fletcher and the role he played in the battle, the author of that book tells me Lundstrom has "overthrown all previous accounts." So his own book would be of limited value as Frank simply didn't have access to recently discovered primary sources. Those being the personal papers of individuals who were actaully present during the events. Second, when I say the Marine Corps' criticism of Fletcher was unfounded, obviously the Marines weren't the only ones directing these uninformed accusations at Fletcher. Many in the Navy were as well; some, most prominently Turner, were deliberately blurring and omitting facts in order to shift blame. But not all Marines were critical of Fletcher. Melvin Maas was the Marine officer who joined Fletcher's staff after Midway (literally; his official title was "Marine Officer"). His papers, along with those of Oscar Pederson, in Yorktown and Saratoga for all three of Fletcher's carrier battles as either the air group commander/fighter direction officer or the air operations officer on his staff, were among the recently discovered and immensely important sources Lundstrom relied upon to "overturn" all the previous accounts. They were actually privy to the information Fletcher had at the time, not flawed analysis and 20-20 hindsight years later, and the considerations that drove Fletcher's decisions. Here's Lundstrom's summary of Marine Colonel Melvin Maas's account:
It's sort of obvious, but I guess it needs to be pointed out that Fletcher's task force was in exactly the same position the Japanese had been when he defeated them at the battles of Coral Sea and Midway; supporting an amphibious thrust into enemy waters. A lot of the criticism of him amounts to demanding he should just forget the lessons he had learned while doing so and repeat the same mistakes the Japanese had made that allowed him to defeat them.
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Very interesting thread, I did not know much of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal and this turning point in the Pacific Theater of Operation. | |||
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I find the battles for Guadalcanal and the Solomons Islands campaigns interesting and instructive because even now they provide valuable lessons about the difficulties of fighting during a period of rapid technological change. Aircraft carriers weren't exactly new, but the doctrine and tactics were both new and untested. No one knew how a carrier war would be fought. The Lexington had just had its 8 inch guns removed. One of the Japanese carriers, the Akagi I believe, still had hers. Why did they have 8 inch guns at all? They thought carriers might engage cruisers in surface actions. The amphibious assault on Guadalcanal was the USN's first amphibious assault of the 20th century. It was also the first test of the Fleet Marine Force concept. Before the 1930s, the Naval landing parties were primarily made up of Sailors (which is why Admirals Fletcher and Lee had both been awarded the MoH at Vera Cruz in 1914). Other innovations appear in hindsight to have given the USN overwhelming advantages against the Japanese. But not at first, and in fact they caused a lot of problems. Such as radar and the VHF TBS (Talk Between Ships) line-of-sight voice circuit. Older ships had been built without either, a lot were still getting them and learning how to use them by going into combat with them, which is a hard way to learn. Radar couldn't really serve as anything more than an early warning device. It couldn't distinguish between your own or enemy ships, or keep track of individual contacts. Radar provided too much information, and at first often provided more confusion than help until a way could be figured out to sort the data into some sort of useable form. That required, after some hard lessons, someone coming up with the idea of a Combat Information Center where all the information could be plotted and tracked. It may seem an obvious solution now, but it wasn't obvious then, and the Japanese never made that leap. As radar controlled gunfire could be accurate if there was a single ship firing at a single target. But even then the accuracy deteriorated rapidly because it was impossible to distinguish between the actual target and the water columns raised by near misses. Shells falling short obscured the target behind columns of water, and because of the range gates designed to reduce clutter, an operator could easily mistake the columns for the target, chase them, and when they disappeared falsely conclude own ship had sank the target as there was nothing on his screen. TBS actually caused some confusion as well, because when ships used to communicate by morse code either visually or via radio there was no room for confusion. The signal book gave everything a precise meaning. Communicating by voice, though, left room for interpretation and misunderstanding. "Roger" in once context might mean "message received and understood" or in another "commence firing." Communications in general was a shambles. While operating in the Coral Sea, Fletcher often received messages in Flag codes that he couln't unencrypt because he didn't have the keys. He couldn't break radio silence to ask for a retransmittal unless he detached a destroyer to get well away from the area of operations and send a message to that effect, or if he was close enough to Australia send an aircraft with a similar request. At Guadalcanal the amphibious group commander was transmitting on a frequency neither Ghormley or Fletcher could receive, possibly an equipment problem because his flagship was a converted merchant ship turned naval auxiliary. Turner would send some messages over to a cruiser by whaleboat, but for some reason he'd wait 12 hours or so to do it. These Fletcher and Ghormley did receive, but then that only contributed to Fletcher's decision to withdraw his carriers as Turner's 07 2130 August 1942 summary (sent and received mid-morning 8 August 1942) informed his superiors that "all troops" were ashore on Guadalcanal, that he expected to start withdrawing his transports per the original plan, leaving only 5 cargo ships at Lunga Pt., and that the Marines had achieved all their initial objectives. Turner wasn't the kind of guy to admit mistakes. As Marine Merrill Twining, later a General but at the time Vandergrift's assistant operations officer, observed Turner's outsized ego would prompt him to declare he'd take responsibility for any mistakes and then later refuse to admit he'd made the slightest one. Actually, there were a lot of commanders whose egos wouldn't permit them to admit to mistakes, or even that they needed anyone else's advice. It's ironic that both Fletcher and Spruance weren't among them. They had no aviation backgrounds, and though very different in many respects they weren't afraid to admit there were things they didn't know and go to the right people for advice. There's a reason that only Fletcher's carrier, Yorktown, launched a coordinated strike at Midway while Spruance's didn't. Spruance hadn't yet learned that his senior aviators, who had gone through flight school as commanders and captains merely so they could command carriers despite having little flying experience and no squadron experience, really didn't know what they were doing. And refused to admit it. Fletcher had learned that, so he made sure to use more junior officers as his aviation advisers. In fact, he was the only one who planned for or was actually participating in Operation Watchtower who had really absorbed the lessons since Pearl Harbor. Carriers were mobile, hard to detect, and thus able to show up where you least expect them and launch devastating strikes. That's how the Japanese surprised us. Later, when he turned the tables and surprised the Japanese, he did so while the IJN carriers were covering an invasion. The IJN expected to and planned to turn from covering the invasion to responding to the inevitable carrier counter-strike. But Fletcher showed up much earlier than they expected. They expected their own amphibious assault would draw the USN carriers out. Instead, the USN carriers had already arrived ahead of them at both Coral Sea and Midway. Really, the fact that the IJN walked into the same trap a second time at Midway was inexcusable. Fletcher wasn't about to make the mistake of believing the Navy knew where the carriers were. The IJN finally had updated their naval codes, so we could not decipher them as we had at Coral Sea and Midway. He also wasn't about to wait until they had been detected in order to break off and respond to the threat, no matter how much his critics may have wanted him to do so. That's how he cost the Japanese six carriers. He had demonstrated, as had the Japanese, that often the first time the presence of a carrier is detected is when its airwing shows up to strike its target. Really, you can learn a lot of lessons that apply not only to the conduct of war during a period of rapid technological change, but really doing anything that requires you to adapt and innovate during a period of rapid change. One thing doesn't change. The prophet is not without honor, except in his own country. | |||
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Thanks for this extra post that is very useful to give some light on this matter. I learned a bit about the French Navy just before WWII, some interesting technology was integrated into the French warships such as Strasbourg, Richelieu, Jean Bart. | |||
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I don't know much at all about the technological state of the French fleet at the outbreak of or during WWII. Most sources of information in the English language tend to concentrate solely on things like guns, torpedoes, powerplants, displacement, etc. Not what really determines how effectively a ship can use those weapons and attributes to best advantage such as fire control, sensors, comms, and even physical layout. I do know the French built some interesting vessels. Such as the Magador class "super destroyer" and the submarine Surcouf that had the gun armament of a heavy cruiser. Really, what I know of the French navy during WWII amounts to the British attack on the fleet in 1940, the operation to scuttle the fleet at Toulon in 1942 so it wouldn't fall into German hands, and the small but appreciated role the Free French Naval Squadron played in the Pacific War. Ships like the Triomphant and the Richelieu. The Richelieu being present in Tokyo Bay when the Japanese signed the surrender. I doubt that the doctrinal concepts that led to the development of some of these ships would have proven correct when tested under combat conditions. Take the Surcouf. If memory serves she sat out the war in Martinique, did she not? As Allied ASW techniques developed, Japanese and German sub skippers learned it hardly mattered what their surface capabilities were. Quiet boats with high underwater endurance and speed were the key to survival. Effective and powerful torpedoes were the only weapons that mattered. Eventually guns were eliminated altogether (postwar). Of course, much depends on which side she would have fought on. And in which theater. But it seems to me that emphasizing the the sub's gun armament and consequently its ability to fight on the surface was going in the wrong direction. And yes, I'm aware that by convention at the time subs were supposed to surface to fight. So it was a "treaty" submarine. But it seems no one else figured to actually use their subs that way. Nimitz saved Karl Donitz from the noose by writing a letter on his behalf, saying the first thing he did after taking over the Pacific fleet following our declaration of war was direct our subs to wage unrestricted warfare against enemy shipping. | |||
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I was at Guadalcanal for the 50th. Too bad the USN did a piss poor job of educating us about the actual events that took place there. It wasn't until after I got out of the Nav when I read the book, marine and got a real sense of where I'd been. Thanks for posting. ----------------------------------------------------- Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. Proverbs 26-4 National Rifle Association Life Member | |||
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Ignoring the note of sarcasm, there's a reason the USN didn't educate you at that time about what actually took place. Fletcher's personal papers went down with the Yorktown at Midway. Whatever papers he had documenting his version of the Guadalcanal campaign remained on the Saratoga. ADM King, who personally disliked Fletcher for reasons unrelated to his actual performance in the Pacific, transferred Fletcher so abrubtly to a shore command that he was not allowed to go back to his ship and get his stuff. Subsequent commanders just tossed them out as they needed the space. As a result, after the war Frank Jack Fletcher refused to defend himself against the unfounded criticism that he became a target of. He said many times post-war that without his notes, working only from memory, he was afraid he'd pass on false information. So he chose to just ignore his critics and enjoy his retirement. History is written by those who are willing to talk to the scribes. Fletcher wasn't one of them. But there were a lot of people both in the USN and USMC who made mistakes but didn't want to admit to them who were perfectly willing to talk to the scribes and shift the blame elsewhere. You learned the version of history written by a bunch of pricks whose egos won't let them admit they're fallible. So they blame Fletcher for everything that went wrong. Since the man himself wouldn't defend himself against that, neither did his subordinates do so publicly. It's only after they died and their heirs discovered what they had written AT THAT TIME that historians discovered countering information. The fact is that AT THAT TIME when Fletcher requested to withdraw his forces, the only information he had received from his subordinate commanders was that all Marines were ashore, the amphibious forces were to withdraw incrementally per the original plan, and his ships in the covering force were low on fuel. He combined this information with what he had learned from inflicting strategic defeats on the Japanese by turning back their amphibious thrusts toward Port Moresby and Midway, and came to the ONLY conclusion any responsible commander could come to given what he knew at the time. It was time to redeploy his forces to prevent the Japanese from doing to him what he had done to them. The recently discovered primary sources conclusively prove this as a fact. Fletcher didn't bug out or abandon his post. Such charges are nonsense. He was shifting his position to better fight the main threat to the offensive. | |||
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Revisionist history. Fletcher infatuation. Failure to consider his own fallibility. Refusal to respect the opinions/research of anyone but himself because they are all "...a bunch of pricks whose egos won't let them admit they're fallible." China Fleet Sailor has become quite the expert on all things Guadalcanal. Boring! Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Look. It's not a problem for me if you want to pretend that what somebody told you about Gaudalcanal 50 or 20 years ago is the gospel truth. I'd hate to infect actual facts into the conversation that might conflict with the mythology the Marines have surounded themselves with. Knock yourselves out. Believe what you want, no matter how fantastical it is. | |||
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So, now you claim it is a myth that the U.S. Navy up-anchored and sailed away on August 9, 1942, without completing its' mission to land the landing force? Even the official history of the U.S. Navy knows that is fact. And included in those ships that sailed away were almost all rations, more than 1/2 the units of fire (ammunition for you navy types), and more than a full battalion of Marines as well as virtually all heavy equipment intended to complete the airfield. The U.S. Navy does not deny any of that, yet you, in your wisdom, want to make excuses for these actions and try to shift the issue to what Fletcher did before and after. I don't pretend shit and resent your silly insinuation that anything I have said is a myth or that what senior Marines who were, unlike you, deserted by the U.S. Navy on Guadalcanal, may have related to me personally when I served in the Corps with veterans from that campaign. You are not the only one who has done research and has the university degrees to support it. So get over yourself and your dislike of Marines. The facts of history are not revisable just because they don't fit your ideal of a Navy unable to make mistakes. And gee, thanks for your permission to think what I like, but I didn't ask for it and don't require it. And in conclusion, here's what I think about your position. It's clear to me that you have no intention of admitting the facts as I've stated them and will continue with your apologist attitude for what the Navy did, or more correctly failed to do, so there is no reason for further discussion. SEMPER FI Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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OK, tell us what you'd rather rather have done. Given the gift of 20-20 hindsight and the distiled knowledge of decades of carrier warfare. Tell us all how if they'd only listened to you things would have been perfect at Guadalcanal. | |||
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Now that I'm no longer on the road, I'd like t respond more thorougly to Fletcher's critics.
Lundstrom spent over 30 years writing his account.
As Lundstrom points out, it is a complete mystery where the Naval War College analyists come up with their figures. The logs are still available for the destroyers accompanying the Saratoga battle group. Here's what they tell us. Phelps: Capacity 187,863 gallons, on hand 96,382 gallons percentage on the day in question 51%. Farragut: Capacity 168,453 gallons, on hand 84,696 gallons, percentage on the day question 50%. Worden: Capacity 168,453 gallons, on hand 72,850 gallons, percentage on the day in question 43%. McDough: Capacity 168,453 gallons, on hand 70,213 gallons, percentage on the day in question 42%. It is simply false thet the accompanying destroyers in the Saratoga battle group were anywhere near 75% full. One of the basic mistakes the Naval War College and Samuel Elliot Morrisson (who compared notes) made was to assume that the units assigned in the June OPORD were actually with Fletcher's battle group when it went into action months later. One flagrant example was the Dale. Morisson assumed the Dale assigned to the Saratoga battle group was with her. And had been refueled by a cruiser, therefore all of Fletcher's destroyers could have been refueled by capital ships if only Fletcher wasn't a coward. The problem with the story is that it isn't true. The Dale had been detached and was refueled a thousand miles away in port Espiritu Santu from the merchant vessel Oliver Wendell Holmes. The fact of the matter is that the morning after withdrawing from Guadalcanal after steaming a mere 18 knots, Fletcher's destyorers averaged 35% They had to refuel. It may remain debatable that the main mission of the Navy is to provide close air support to an amphibious landing. As opposed to moving out and meeting the fleet atttempting to counter their own amphibious thrust. What I do know is this; Fletcher's guidance was to keep his carrier force intact and inflict greater harm on the enemy then they could on him, I can't but help to conclude he did exactly that. No matter how much that interferes with a Marine's cherished hatred for the Navy. | |||
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Very interesting thread again. | |||
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I find the entire phenomenon of seperating the facts from the popular mythology interesting. It's impossible to learn from history if you don't know what really happened, but at the same time the process in which falsehoods get written in stone is also a part of history. Sometimes the truth outs relatively quickly. For instance, after the Battle of Midway the B-17 fliers were the first to return to Hawaii. They told the press they had won the battle. Headlines read that the B-17s had blasted the Japanese from the sea. If you asked the average man or woman about who won the Battle of Midway throughout the rest of the war they would have mentioned the Army B-17s. Professionals had largely learned to discount these claims. Not just Navy or Marines, but Army types such as MacArthur's Air Force chief General Kenney. Which is only natural, when ships the aviators claimed to have destroyed keep showing up. The Army fliers early in the war simply weren't trained in ship recognistion or damage assessment. But even those who knew better, such as Nimitz and Kenney, refused to criticise them publicly as a matter of courtesy and for morale. The flyers were doing a difficult job the best they could. So, the idea that the B-17s played a critical role remained the popular legend until the end of the war. When investigators learned from interviews with the Japanese that not one of the 322 bombs the B-17s dropped during the battle hit a target. Most didn't even come close. The Japanese ship drivers would simply wait until the high-altitude bombers dumped their load, then turn at a right angle at 30 plus knots. They'd be a quarter of a mile away from where the bombs landed when they finally reached the surface. Now, it's practically impossible to find anyone who still believes the B-17s played a crucial role in the Battle of Midway. On the other hand sometimes the legends last for decades. As is the case with Fletcher. People like Morrison or the Naval War College analysts, Bates and Innis, come out with a story, and it's simply accepted as gospel. What happened in the case of the B-17 claims at Midway doesn't occur for decades, if ever. Nobody bothers to check their claims. That's what I like about Lundstrom; he actually goes back and looks at the original sources. And discovers that people have simply been repeating a bunch of falsehoods. Bates and Innis state in their analysis that the oiler Cimmaron had "topped off" the destroyers on 3-4 August. None were in fact filled to capacity because there wasn't enough oil. Then they later pull the figure "75%" out of thin air when talking about the fuel state of TG 61.1.1. All of the destroyers in Fletcher's battle groups were well below 50% when he withdrew, were down to about 35% the following morning, and many were down to 12-15% when he finally rendezvoused with an tanker on the 10th. I learned to be a sceptic of initial reports early on in life. I bought Zenji Orita's book "I Boat Captain" (Japanese 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class subs being indicated by the first three letters in their sylabilary at the time, "I," "RO," and "HA")shortly after it came out in 1976. Orita felt compelled to write it due to the myths that were circulated as fact surrounding the Japanese Navy in general, the submarine service in particular. He correctly pointed out that after Samuel Elliot Morison wrote his "official" history of the USN during WWII, he had to publish another volume to cover the errata. And he still didn't catch them all. Much of what Orita reported has been verified; he was right, Morison was wrong. This scepticism has served me well. The MSM is the leading producer of false initial reports. I really didn't need Eason Jordan to write that 2002 NYT editorial "Why We Lied" admitting CNN reported unvarnished Saddam Hussein's propaganda in exchange for the byline "this is CNN, Baghdad." These days I only watch CNN in airports, and when I do I'm constantly wondering what if anything they're saying is true. Do I believe other news agencies that haven't admitted they routinely lie? No, especially not when they're reporting, say, from a Hezbollah or Hamas controlled area and have to ask politely to get their confiscated passports back so they can leave alive. It isn't just that they yap like little dogs when they know they're nice and safe, as if they're brave truth tellers, then when their ass is really on the line they sit down and shut up when faced with the difficult task of reporting the truth about a nasty dictatorship which will really put the hurt on them. It's that they can't get basic facts right. For instance, if you believe our MSM, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is a "Clinton-era ban" on gays serving openly in the military, but it is legal for gays to serve if they keep their sexual orientation to themselves. None of which is true at all. The ban on gays serving has existed since the UCMJ replaced the Articles of War shortly after WWII. And it is illegal for gays to serve regardless of whether they oplenly admit their sexual orientation or not. The ban on gays serving in the military is a decades old law which Congress refused to change when Clinton asked. All Clinton did was issue an Executive Order essentially establishing a policy of non-enforcement. The military will not ask, nor will it pursue a rumor if a third party tells the authorities they believe so-and-so is gay. They will only enforce the statute if an individual outs him or herself. Hollywood closely follows the MSM in producing BS that people mistake as fact. Especially if Oliver Stone is anyway involved. Right now there's a new movie out about the Plame/Wilson affair, "Fair Game." It's full of falsehoods. So much so the Washington Post editorial board felt it needed to write a review, as the major events portrayed in the movie have already been thoroughly debunked. Yet, as Joseph Wilson correctly points out, for people with short memories or who don't read the movie will be how they remember the issue. Yet Wilson fails to point out nothing in the movie is true. Plame wasn't outed due to some White House conspiracy, nothing and no one was compromised when she was publicly identified, no operations were cancelled, and Wilson did not prove anything the President said was untrue. Of course, Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame have always been self-serving narcissists, so it comes as little surprise that they didn't let the facts get in the way when making their movie tribute to themselves. I enjoy reading the detective work that people like Lundstrom put in seperating fact from fiction. It leaves me wondering how much else I think I know is simply untrue. I don't accept anything the press tells me as fact. Often I know immediately, due to past professional experience, that what I'm being told is complete BS. If I'm interested in the subject I enjoy reading books on the subject. And to continue learning, as you never know if or when someone will write the final word on the subject. As for the rest, when I'm not interested in a subject sufficiently to put in the work of winnowing out the truth, I'm even more prepared to have my mind changed. On subjects like Frank Jack Fletcher's performance as a carrier force commander, I would change my mind if someone approaches me with "facts" that haven't already been debunked. It isn't a queston of being enamored with Fletcher, or rehabilitating his image. He's been dead since 1973, and was never himself very concerned with the chatter about him while he was alive. It's about learning lessons, which is impossible unless you know what is true and what isn't. Of course, as the truth comes out Fletcher's reputation has been restored. This process started early in my career, when I first read "Frank Jack Fletcher; Pioneer Warrior or Gross Sinner" in the Naval War College review. The author decidedly came down on the "Pioneer Warrior" side of the ledger in the well researched and reasoned article. I've read a couple of treatises, such as the one I linked to above, which reflected favorably on Fletcher. And Lundstrom himself wrote an article in the Navy's professional journal "Proceedings" that argued very persuasively that Fletcher had gotten an undeserved bad rap from history. Naturally I was interested in his book in which he expands on the reasons why he was a victim of a "rush to judgement" in the immediate post war era, which people (including very good historians like Richard Frank) accepted as true due to the reputations of the early chroniclers. Of course, interesting as I find the history of the first few months of the Pacific War (Fletcher playing a vital and heretofore unappreciated role) that isn't what I started this thread to discuss. No matter how General Vandegrift and his Marines may have felt about Fletcher, they fully respected Admirals Scott, Callaghan, and Lee. After the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal Vandegrift released a congratulatory message saying he and his men lifted their battered helmets in salute to these valiant warriors and their men, many of whom remain in Ironbottom Sound. The men who fought and died in the waters off Guadalcanal deserve to be remembered not only for the vital role they played in taking that island from the Japanese and keeping it, but the sacrifices they made as this country turned from the defensive to the offensive in the Pacific. | |||
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wow I joined this site to learn about reloading. I have only scratched the surface of that. But the military history is unbelieveable. You guys are a walking treasure trove of knowledge. Pleasekeepupthe discussions and I'll keep reading them. 1 shot 1 thrill | |||
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Hey CFS Ignore Lionhunter. Like most Jarheads he cant get past the virtual brainwashing that the Corps puts in them. Many Marines simply fail to understand or ignore that the Marines are a part of the Department of the Navy and that the Navy's Amphibious Squadrons don't just exist to function in a way that benefits the Marines. The Amphibious Squadrons have to cover the waters around the operation and not just the beaches themselves. Thats why Amphibious Operations are always commanded by a Navy Admiral and not a Marine general. Fletcher and Halsey understood that they needed to address the Japanese fleet as well as the troops on the islands. But the Marines often can not see past the high water mark and never understood that simple fact. Blow him off. Chief Mac | |||
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Chief, I can't ignore the fact that it's Navy types like Samuel Elliot Morrison and the Naval War College analysts whose sloppy and inaccurate work has misinformed people like Lionhunter for the past 60 years. It's a real shame that Fletcher's most prominent and influential critics weren't professionally qualified to knowledgably criticize him. Their failure to grasp the strategic, tactical, and logistical situation Fletcher faced in the summer of 1942 has harmed more than merely a single man's reputation. | |||
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The incredible camaraderie between the service branches is still music to my ears. As an Army Veteran, I fondly remember the friendly "chats" we had with Zoomies, Squids, Jarheads, and of course those fine men in the "Brown Water Navy". We used to ask if people knew the difference between the Coast Guard and Navy. When they said no, we would tell the, if a CG ships, the crew can roll up their pants legs and wade ashore! Rich RVN 1969-71 | |||
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Shhhh! Lionhunter thinks I hate Marines. Which is odd, when you think of it. I'd bet the men of the Washington, South Dakota, Gwin, Walke, Benham, and Preston would be surprised to learn of this naval hatred for the marines. They thought they were going to the aid of the marines when they died. Fighting. | |||
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i have often thought the marines painted themselves in a corner with their hero image i think they are[usmc] very leaniet with their awards compared to the other services. it seems the bronze star, silver star are up for grabs to perpetuate the image they want. i predicted when the army gave the first living recipiant medal of honor in this new war the marines would be close behind.the uniform doesnt create the hero the man does neither does the perpetuation of an image. this is just an observation. | |||
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My dad fought on Guadalcanal in the 2nd Marine Division. He never had a bad word to say about the Navy. He also fought at Tarawa C/1/6. His company was the assault company on the afternoon of the 3rd day. The battle did not last long. He spent several days collecting Marine KIA for burial. I don't think he ever had any respect for any government after that. He then fought on Saipan and was wounded. All through this he never had anything bad to say about his immediate command but he was disgusted with the governments that killed so many kids he knew. | |||
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As a former Marine, I can't say that I don't feel like squids are cousins to us jarheads. That said, we do need a ride into battle..... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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and every once in a while, a little help. I start a thread about how Ching Lee threw a little support your way, and I end up getting an earfull about how Fletcher didn't stick around long enough to pull your cans out of the fire. Marines. It's like having a wife who can't cook or do laundry. | |||
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But who can kick your ass despite the inability to cook or do laundry..... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I take it you've never been in a bar fight with me. Anyways, I'll be happy to drop you off at the new work site in the morning. Then drive back to the boat and bring back a group of your friends. No matter how many people are shooting at me. Because once we offload you seagoing bellhops, that's when the galley breaks out the steak and lobster. | |||
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Bar fighting is for amateurs! We're not all internet warriors. Yeah, drop us off and pick us no matter how many folks are shooting at us. Why not stick around? See, this is what I am talking about -- if we didn't treat each other this way, I would be very suspicious! It's comforting to see that there are some constants in this world despite the direction this country has been headed. Semper Fi and Anchors away, my friend! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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if you get the v.f.w. magazine go to the center where the battle casultys are recorded i believe the army casulty rate is like 3 times that of the bellhops but to read accounts of the war you would be led to believe the war is being won by the marines alone. take a hard look at the leatherneck magazine each month it has an endless list of awards. i flew combat it was hard enough getting a air medal let alone a d.f.c. or an a.f. cross. i think there is less than 20 a.f. crosses awarded since viet nam. i would really like to think you earn it not given it to perpetuate an image and have to have some exceptional award for every insurrection recorded. just a foot note we always viewed the bronze star as the [marines] officers good conduct medal. there were more airmen killed in ww11 than the total number combined of the navy and marines and less awards. | |||
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usps -- more casualties, and more boots on the ground. Let's look at per capita numbers. It's not about comparing casualty numbers. That cheapens the loss of American lives. Some landings in the Pacific like Tarawa for example, make the Normandy landing look like a walk in the park -- and we know it wasn't. The Marine Corps has earned its reputation by gutting it out. They have always played second fiddle to the other services for funding and their very existence has been threatened at home. Sorry, but if you need a piece of real estate taken, there is no finer infantry than the Marines. It's no accident that they were tasked with taking Fallujah. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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that said most people dont know there was an army unit in the pacific the army has been completely written out of the pacific thanks to the marines p.r. ww11 u s army divisions in the pacific[ are you ready] 6,7,11th a.b.,12,23,24,25,27,31,32,33,37,38,40,41,43,77, 81,93,96,98,1st.cav. absolutely no mention of one of these divisions. marine corp divisions in the pacific. 1,2,3,4,5,6 army 21 divisions verses 6. no mention of the army period. what happened to such heroic units such as merrills rangers to mention only one of many. read your military history. | |||
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They are not mentioned in the Pacific, because they were not there
The Marines fought the toughest, most epic battles in the Paciffic and are still selected for the toughest combat missions _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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