Bear with me on this. I have been trying to define what went sideways on a couple of recent hunts. I just saw "it" on the most recent Jim Shockey show.

Scenario on the Jim Shockey show - he has Rogue River Outfitters in the Yukon. Basically he operates as an outfitter in a large area for three or four weeks offering sheep, caribou, moose and the rare bear hunt. On the show, he shows a map of the area with camps noted. On the show, he and his "manager" , Wojo, comment that as the season is starting, they are getting guides moved to the base then out to the camps to set up camps before the hunters show up. The have 48 hunters coming in over a short period of time. (that seems like a lot of hunters to me to manage at one time but I digress). I could not tell how many guides, apprentices and wranglers he had but it appeared to be about 15 to 20 based on the TV show.

They focused on one guide that was 0 for 2 on moose the previous year. Not sure if it was the guide, the area or the lack of moose. In two hunts, the guide saw one moose and a lady took a bad shot and missed. He called in to Wojo and got chewed out for letting her take a badshot. This guide has been with Shockey for 8 or 9 seasons according to the show. He appeared competent, personable and skilled. For this season, hHe was sent to a camp to set up and had a couple of helpers that appeared to be inexperienced. He set up this camp and did no scouting. Client shows up and he starts this moose hunt with no moose. They see one but pass. The show ends with 4 days left to hunt. Wojo goes on air saying if this guide gets "skunked again, it may do him in for his hunting".

On a different part of the hunt area and the show, Shockey was taking a guy sheep hunting and using 3 apprentices, none of which had ever been in the area or been on a sheep hunt. He was "training" them. THey were definitely new at the trade. Shockey takes them, coaches them, leads to a Dall sheep and shoots it. The client did not shoot. I am not sure if the client was hunting sheep or moose. Anyway, Shockey hunts sheep and it appears it takes 3 days to get the sheep. The show ends before I see if the hunter killed anything.

My scenario - I went on an Alaskan Brown Bear hunt two years ago. I go to an area with a history of bears. The owner of the area is skilled, knows the area and has history on the area. I get a guide that has "10 years" experience. He is a good guy, knows bears somewhat and is hard working. Issue is that he does one or two bear hunts each open season - each are 10 days long. So in 10 years, he has been on a max of 20 hunts. He has never been in the area we are hunting. He came in the day before us to set up a camp and scout. We hunt an area that should have salmon and bears, but alas, no salmon and no bears. We sit 8 days with no action. We see a couple of sows with cubs. The owner struggled moving hunters around due to weather but managed to move everyone but us. We went home with no opportunity and no shootable bear sighted. I get that, but learn that others were moved and a couple were taken to areas with bears. They kill bears, a small one, a sow and a few decent ones.

My next hunt was in the Yukon with a long time outfitter there. He boasted of 20 years in area. He had a large area and lots of established camps. This was multi-species - bear, caribou, sheep. We are dropped in a camp that was hunted the two previous hunts. Two sheep were taken on those hunts. The lead guide is experienced but is a mechanic most of the year. He talks a good game. The other "guide" was an 18 year old kid who had just graduated high school. He could handle a horse but was not a guide even though he was "sold" as a guide. We hunt 10 days and see virtually no game. We learn that this outfitter takes 20 to 25 sheep a year out of this area when we had been told that he rotated areas to let the sheep "grow". We come back to the main camp, see a bunch of young guides waiting on the next set of clients. We talk to the other clients with mixed reviews on how their hunts went. I would guess that success was 50%.

I had long exchanges with both of the outfits that provided the above hunts. One of the common comments was that "it is hard to get anyone to come and guide for a month or two" as they have regular jobs elsewhere. Also, "we did not have time to pre-scout as we were setting up camps and shuttling guides before you got here". Well, that was what I thought I was paying money for them to do.

So here is my observation and conundrum - I have been on 6 hunts in Alaska and Canada. Only one would I call wildly successful. One was good. Two were very average, and two were very poor. The wildly successful hunt and the good hunt were with reputable outfits. Both supplied experienced and skilled guides with experience in the area and had pre-scouted the areas. The average hunts were with reputable outfits, but the areas seemed hammered by a lot of hunters and the guides were local guys that were not terribly skilled but adequate. The disasters are noted above.

In the Shockey show and on my disasters, I see a common thread.

1. A guide that is not experienced enough or has not real knowledge of the area he is in. He may be personable but that does not replace local knowledge. Also, hunting seasons are short and guides do not have the chance to get a lot of experience.

2. Outfitters that over hunted and over loaded the areas. Alaska and Canada are not game rich areas. They are remote but there are not a lot of animals in those places. Any significant hunting pressure likely reduces success for the next few years. We saw that in the Yukon disaster.

3. Guide standards are low or non-existent. In the Yukon, there is one requirement - that a guide as a "First Aid Card". This is a half day class from the Red Cross or equivalent. There are no other requirements. When the "guide" gets this card, he is added to a list of "guides" that is sent to the authorities in the Yukon listing him as a "guide". If you are not on a boat, Alaska has a very low standard as well.

4. The quality of the guides is a function of how many hunts the guide has been on and who trained him/her. It is hard to get experience if you only do one or two hunts a year. Compared to Africa or Europe where the seasons are longer, it takes much longer to get experience in Canada and Alaska.

Shockey's show highlighted, unknowingly, one of the big problems - guide experience, qualifications and training. In the Zimbabwe system, an apprentice works for 3 years, is tested and evaluated before he is a guide. This apprentice gets more experience in 3 years than most North American guides get in 20 years. Yes, I know this is comparing apples and grapes, but I would think that the Alaska Guides association or the same entity in the Yukon would adopt some sort of standard or evaluation method.

Secondly on Shockey's show, I struggle to see how hosting 48 hunters over a large area does not impact the game quality significantly over a short period of time. I believe Shockey to be a good guy and knows the business of hunting. But am not sure about the biology or the game counts needed to support that kind of "off take" in an area as large as and as game poor as the Yukon. Not once were quotas or game counts mentioned.

WHere does this lead me? Well, I will do more detailed research and seek out the outfit that has an exclusive area and does not over shoot the area. How will I determine this, not sure.... Also, I will try and determine if the "guide" is really a guide and not a car mechanic. How will I do this, not really sure...

Thoughts or suggestions???

I am headed to Africa again with a guide that has 150 days per year for the last 15 years under his belt for experience. And, he has hunted the same block for the last 5 years. His camp staff is intact and his trackers have been with him for his 15 years.

I really want to hunt Alaska and Canada but really assurance that I am truly being "guided" in an area the guide knows well and has not just flown over a couple of times.....

hunting Alaska knik glaciers Braun Kopsack this guy is the real thing

I feel your pain.

It is a real problem. I have had guides misidentify the sex of a mountain goat in BC. A goat that I said was female and he disagreed. I asked a guide if the caribou I just shot was a good one. His response? He didn’t know. It was the first one he had ever seen. Perhaps the most entertaining was a grizzly charge. It was not even that close. I brained it. The guide? He threw up and started shaking violently. We had native guides in Manitoba for caribou. They were absolutely incompetent as hunters. They were hell on wheels at surviving the weather.

I have had some fantastic guides as well to be clear. I remember this native in BC. We got close to a moose. Real close. He asked me if I really wanted to shoot the bull there as it would be hell to pack out. I thought WTF? I inquired what he was thinking as an alternative. He pointed to an area , said we should go there and call the moose to us. I thought he was crazy as hell but he did it. Absolutely amazing.

How does one protect against this? I wish I knew . I am heading to both BC and Alaska this year.

I have a really good friend who is a hunting broker, and it's his business to know every outfitter out there, and he does know most of them personally. He "knows about" all of them...once again it's his business to know.

While he thinks Shockey is a great hunter and decent enough guy, he knows his outfits have a very low level of success on his hunts. He relies on his name to get hunters in camp.

Ross,

Thank you for posting this. I don't have any experience with guides up there. I have lived in Alaska a couple of times, and driven all over Canada.

There are tons of jobs in Western Canada, and a lot of jobs in Alaska. Why would anyone want to be a guide and only rely on a couple of months of pay? I don't know.

When I was on active duty I was offered guiding positions in Canada and Alaska for a month a year (active duty military get a month of vacation a year, I always had 60-80 days on the books because I was deployed overseas so much). I never did it. I don't know why. Would have been a good time.

I spoke to about 10 different BC, Yukon, NWT and Alaska outfitters when I was at the last Jagd and Hund in Dortmund. The only outfitter that told me he was 90-100% per year on sheep was Werner and Sunny Ansbacher. South Nahannni Outfitters.

Spot on from Dogcat !

This is going to be an increasing problem for the outfitters in Canada and Alaska as long they do not reduce number of hunters and many of them engage themselves more directly in the guiding.

I know of Master Guides that do not operate like this, but have experiences the same story like above.

Morten

If I’m not misaking there weren’t 40 or so clients that was total number of guides,and hunters. It would be interesting to know how many clients they take each year.

Interesting thread Dogcat. I have had a few disappointments hunting AK. Once, I had a guide that could not walk 50 yards without stopping. He was 70 and had smoked 3 packs of cigs most of his life. I hunted with a master guide once who hunted the same small area on Kodiak year after year; didn't see a bear. I have heard horror stories about outfitters on AR that others rave about. Who knows? In looking back, I am still glad I did that first hunt; it really was an adventure even though at the time I was pissed about a few things. The Kodiak hunt was a recommendation from a guy I met in BC on a moose hunt; cheap hunt, high success. Well, the price went up significantly and I probably should have not booked it. I have some good memories but not my best hunt.

I was on a moose hunt with a guide that was a carpenter most of the time; his real passion was fly fishing but he knew his stuff. I had a fantastic hunt. I had a great hunt for brown bears on the Penn in 2017.

I have learned a few things over time. Bear hunting on the Penn is a circus unless the outfitter has exclusive rights. I have heard a lot of horror stories about guys who go out in the field and see another tent only a few miles away.

My satisfaction is not correlated with whether I have used a booking agent, although most of the time it has been better with one. When I check references, I always ask who else was in camp, and try and track down that person. One issue in AK, as you know, is you have to be in shape and by the time you can afford a guided hunt, many hunters are not in shape.

African PHs are better than the average guide, but I once hunted Tanz with a guy who had never hunted Tanz and only showed up the day before. I have hunted leopards in Namibia twice with the same guy who often posts hunts on AR and one particular AR member raves about him but has only hunted plains game. That PH doesn't know cats like Wayne Van Den Bergh or our own Fulvio.

I guess the one thing I have learned is to stay away from someone whose costs are markedly below others. There is a reason for that.

I do love Africa, but to me Africa, the Yukon, and BC are really great adventures. I don't need to shoot 20 animals every time I go hunting. A big moose or brown bear is a better trophy iMO than an average Cape buff. So I guess I keep going until I can't do it anymore. I have fewer hunts ahead of me than behind me.

I do not appreciate Wojo chewing out the guide for the lady’s missed shot. The implication is that if he does not produce he is fired.

He did produce he got her on game sought. It is not his fault she missed. Missing is part of the business, Hunter Outfitter, and Guide need to accept this. It is one thing when the guide whispers “wait for” only to be hear the boom of the rifle, but that is still the shooter’s failure not Guide.

I bet the Guide job is safe and the chewing out was just for tv. Shocked has aired some misses of his own.

This scenario makes me glad I am not in the business.

I told my Outfitter each time not to worry about producing animals. We are here to hunt. I explicitly tell them do not worry about animals I”LoL probably miss anyway.

Interesting stuff

A long time ago I guided on "The Rock" for brown bear just out of school for a few years and was pretty good at it running 85%.I worked for an uncle off his boat. I would say 95% of all outfitters could not care less about client except getting paid,there are a few very few that are the exception. Dogcat an others are correct low game numbers can mae a good guide look bad and high numbers make a rookie look good.
IMHO if you want a real northern experience with the chance for game kill go to Ak. or Yukon but for trigger time and being pampered go across the pond. They are two very different trips.

2th,
I agree with you on most of what you are saying.

On the Shockey show, Jim seemed very interested in making the client happy. He reiterated a couple of times - "But the clients really like him" . He did not reference success ratios or his guides putting hunters on game. It was about, "lets provide them a guide that they like".

I agree. It helps if the hunter and guide connect well. However, I am neutral on the guides. To me, a good guide works hard, puts in the effort to get me close to shootable game and knows the area.

Usually in Africa and Europe, I get this. I have only had one conflict on an African hunt with the PH. We were on game and hunted well, but he was a jerk to my sons and I let him know it. He did not like that I had brought my teenage sons on the trip and that he could not cuss and drink to his hearts content. I reminded him my sons had been on 3 previous African hunts and would do their part. He was tipped accordingly.

What exactly is "a real northern experience" ? Freezing in the rain or snow, looking at empty country eating lousy food and getting snowed in or rained in while the outfitter moves other hunters around in a quest to find game? I enjoy the mountains. I enjoy the north country. I have taken all of the game in the north except brown bear and caribou. I have taken the North America sheep. I have been on 9 sheep hunts, with five successes. I get it.

What I don't get it is why continue to spend serious cash to hunt in areas that change from year to year or that are over shot or that the "guide" really does not know. I struggle with this and understand it is a crap shoot. I did my reference checking on my poor hunts. References all checked out. I met with the outfitter prior to the hunts - my BS antenna did not go off. On my most enjoyable and productive sheep hunt, the outfitter - Darwin Cary - told me that he charges more to get the best guides and limits the off take in his area. He has a huge area and takes 6- 8 Stone sheep a season and never hunts areas in back to back years. We saw sheep every day. We saw rams daily and made stalks finally taking one for my partner and I.

On the terrible hunt in the Yukon, we saw one ram that the guides would not stalk. One ram in 9 days and a couple of ewes with lambs. The guides repeatedly told us that this area always produces as they had killed two rams already this season and 4 or 5 the year before. Duh! That was a problem. I saw the same type of operation on the Shockey TV show. Lots of camps, lots of hunters and not much game at this point.

Anyway, I doubt I ever go back north unless I can be convinced that the outfit has not overshot the area and I have a truly experienced guide.

As to pampering, not an issue. African camps beat remote North American camps for "nice to have" and they have staff to take care of things the guides have to do - but you know that going in. So pampering is not the issue.

As to trigger time, again, you know that on a North American hunt. You may get one shot or not. But I prefer to get that one shot in an area the guide knows and that holds game.

As for Africa, I have three more trips planned - Save Conservancy, Ethiopia and Tanzania.

Anyway, every hunter has preferences. I like the experiences and prefer Africa or Europe, but enjoy a legit and quality operation in North America. I am just having trouble finding one.

It is a scary proposition for someone who is saving for a sheep hunt.

Brendan Burns had an interesting talk at last years Kuiu sheep hunting symposium.

https://basecamp.kuiu.com/how-...167465980-170827604/

I doubt I hunt sheep again in Canada or Alaska for that reason. I will go to Mexico again for sheep and hunt aoudad in the USA. I will not be going to Russia for anything, been there 50 times for work and am not going back. Will go to Spain and Pakistan for sheep, ibex, mouflon. Maybe Mongolia.

Sheep in North American, outside of land owner tags in NM or TX or an Indian reservation in Montana, is too much of a crap shoot anymore.

Like I mentioned, I just don’t have the confidence in getting with a quality outfitter in an area that is not over hunted and with a truly experienced guide.

Even on the Shockey show, he was meeting one of his apprentice guides for the first time and did. To know the persons name.

That was a red flag to me.

funny that when we the locals are telling not to go with, you re still trying too ....

One thing that I have done is stop chasing goals in hunting. I have shot pretty much everything I want to shoot. I would like a bigger sheep and might still go after a MP, but i just want to go hunting for the enjoyment of the hunt. Sure, glassing for days without seeing anything can be a drag, but if you have hunted long enough, you know things can change very quickly.

Sitting in a cold rain isn't fun, but it gives you an appreciation for simple things like a warm fire and dry sleeping bag.

Well my sheep issue has been solved. Drew a tough desert tag in Arizona. Now to close the deal...

Like many others here I have taken everything I always thought I would like to hunt both in NA and Africa. I was raised hunting whitetails in Pa., I seem to have made the complete circle back to it these days. Fact is I am a better deer hunter than 99% of the guides I have used in other states and Canada to pursue them, no bragging here just a fact. Now in the last 1/4 of my hunting life I am content to hunt deer on my property in Pa. as I have tired of outfits such as dogcat speaks to. Trophies I've got them collecting dust in a cigar smoked room, memeories I keep in my heart.

Good post Dogcat. And I agree with 2nd doc that I find myself, like many posters here, having more actual hunting experience than my guides these days. I guess getting older and enjoying the privilege of being able to make hunts across the globe for a number of different species pays off in multiple ways.

North American hunting is no doubt tougher in the west or Alaska than other places I have hunted... fewer animals and no real criteria an outfit needs to possess in order to hang a shingle. Like AAzW writes, hunting with long time outfitters with proven reputations and not taking chances with cheaper alternatives may pay dividends, but doesn't guarantee success. "You pay your money and you takes your chances", an old hunter once told me. But if you want to experience hunting NA and Canadian species, it's just what you have to do...

Funny thing about Shockey, I didn't know his success rates were that low. From watching his program you'd think everyone gets their game. And Jim is not shy about charging for his hunts! But he is a helluva businessman!

Gulp!

And I just sent in a deposit for an Alaska grizz Hunt.

I guess you pays you money and you takes you chances.

BH63

I agree, dogcat.

Back in 2009, I drew a high quality Alaskan moose tag through Cabela's TAGS and went on a hunt with a highly recommended outfit. Even though I shot a decent moose (62.5" wide w/ great points but just a spike and a fork for fronts), the hunt was so poorly run that I couldn't call it a positive experience. I was lucky in that I had a skilled guide, but another guy in the camp was stuck with a last minute replacement who was a tribal elder and literally couldn't see more than maybe 30 feet in front of him. Two of the four boats in camp had busted outboards, and the native guides just viewed it as bad luck and had no plan to solve the situation (I solved it, but that's another story),even though it meant being unable to hunt. The guides were polite but unfriendly, and all disappeared to their tents every time we got back to the camp, leaving the four clients to sit around and discuss what a sh!tty time they were having and trying to come up with a way to help the one guy shed the tribal elder guide and hunt 2x1 with one of the other three clients (ultimately not possible because the only way to help the elder was if he asked for it). The icing on the cake was that the guy who ran the operation was completely absent during our hunt, as he was running another camp in a non-draw area to make extra money. He never checked in during the hunt to my knowledge, and he never addressed any of the problems.

I know there are great operations and great hunting in Alaska and Canada, but my subsequent experience with the professionalism and problem-solving skills of Zambian PHs--both as a client and as an appy--pretty much guaranteed that I'll never write another big check to hunt up north. I have seen how an operation is supposed to be run and how a guide is supposed to take care of his clients and make a plan when things go wrong. I love to hunt, and I'm certainly willing to pay for a great experience (which doesn't necessarily mean killing something), but I don't make enough money to be able to risk wasting $20-40K and two weeks of work for a bad experience that never had a chance of being good (bad luck is one thing, but what happened on my moose hunt or on some of the hunts mentioned in this thread was not bad luck).

One thing to remember is that an awful lot of these areas are not exclusive areas when it comes to outfitters. Some are, some aren't. Multiple outfitters might be hunting the same area. I have personally seen this in Alaska. I was quite shocked to see planes landing close enough that I could walk to them. From, what I understand, some of the Federal lands ( ANWR for example) do award exclusive contracts for a period of years.

Even if the outfitter has exclusive rights, there is the issue of locals. I have seen locals in both Alaska and the Yukon. The more remote an area, the less likely one is to have this problem.

I remember a booking agent who used to print in their marketing materials the following:" If you can't take disappointment, don't hunt North America." While I think that is true enough, I have a completely different view of this now than I did say 15 years ago. Ross is spot on.

My last experience with this type of situation was in 2013. I trained for a year for a Dall sheep hunt in AK. I was almost 58 years old from the sea level flat lands. I saw planes landing less than 2 miles from us. I saw horse tracks on the opposite side of us from the planes. We had no horses. A few days into the hunt, the guide recommended that we change areas and hunt grizzlies as our chances of getting a sheep were slim. I flew home.

This reminds me of any number of outfitted whitetail hunts I used to go on. They'd tell you there's a $500 fine for shooting a Deer under 130". Meanwhile, 8 guys hunting 6 days...48 man-days of hunting....from dawn to dusk, and nobody ever saw a Deer even close to 100".

It seems many of us have North American Guided horror stories...

It is always important to do our homework on any outfitter / guide no matter what country we are booking but I find it doubly important for NA guides & outfitters. On top of the risk of a lousy, unsuccessful hunt, we also bear the ultimate responsibility to obey all the game laws. I am far from an expert in judging a legal ram or moose or even knowing we are in the correct hunting unit. This is my biggest worry and it has driven me to be VERY careful about NA outfitters.

When I book with an outfitter that I know and have hunted with in the past, I am specific as to who the guide must be and it must be in the contract. If they cannot accomodate that then thanks but no thanks.. No "bait and switch", no substitutions. I admit I am the same with Africa hunts - I always hunt with the same couple PHs.

I am always nervous when I step out and try a new outfitter and try to do my homework before booking.

It's not all about success to me - it's about compatibility, competence and value for my investment. If I fork out 20 grand to hunt brown bear and the guide turns out to be lazy, incompetent or simply an idiot there is going to be hell to pay.. Now if he works and hunts hard, pushes me to my limits and does his best to get me a shot then I could not ask for more..

As we get older and have decades of hunting experience, we cannot expect every guide to be more experienced hunters than we ourselves are, but we can and should expect them to be highly experienced experts on the area we are hunting, the animal we are pursuing and the local games laws.

You know I think one of the best things we can do for each other is post that we are thinking of hunting with "x" and then soliciting all responses by PM, whether good or bad. And keep it confidential. There are a lot of guys who have helped me on AR via PMs or phone calls.

One problem is see with some of the positive comments about different outfits here on AR:

1. A few have posted positive comments about "x" but I hear from personally talking to others who have hunted with "x" some serious issues. Serious enough I know I will never book with that guy no matter what he sells his hunts for.
2 Some guys rave about "y" but that is the only outfit they ever hunt with. Reminds me of my first hunt in Africa in Namibia; I raved about it to Bill Williamson so much he visited the guy. He declined to book for him without telling me why, but after hunting in Tanzania I figured out really fast why he didn't.

It would be interesting if there was a federal regulatory requirement requiring outfitters to show their success in terms of percentages for the different species they advertise. Perhaps for the last 5 years running!

I hunt bear in Maine with a guy who gave me the details of his preceding season to include number of hunters, the number of bears seen, the number of bears shot and lost, and the number of bears killed.

Imagine shelling out 20 grand to hunt an animal with a Guide that hasn’t seen one in over 5 years in that area.


BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
It would be interesting if there was a federal regulatory requirement requiring outfitters to show their success in terms of percentages for the different species they advertise. Perhaps for the last 5 years running!

I hunt bear in Maine with a guy who gave me the details of his preceding season to include number of hunters, the number of bears seen, the number of bears shot and lost, and the number of bears killed.

Imagine shelling out 20 grand to hunt an animal with a Guide that hasn’t seen one in over 5 years in that area.


BH63

The problem with "pure" success rate is it doesn't take into account the shape of the hunter or his/her marksmanship abilities, or perhaps most importantly, their "mental toughness" - I have heard from some outfitters in AK that they have had clients who after a few days got homesick, depressed about the weather, etc. and just left. I was on a moose hunt in AK in 2016 and met two guys from NJ; a father and son. They saw a "big moose" on the lake where the lodge and adjoining cabins were located. They spent their entire hunt based out of the lodge and neither one had a shot. I could not wait to get out of camp and set up a spike camp. Me and the guy who flew in together both got moose but a long ways from the lodge.

Along these lines I suppose is the fact there are a lot of hunters on "once in a lifetime" hunts who have never hunted the species in question (call it griz bears). After a few days of hunting and not seeing anything, they get depressed and lose focus, leaving glassing etc up to the guide. Experienced hunters know things can turn around awfully fast. Not always, but enough to know you hunt hard until the last hour of the last day.

This thread is informative and reconfirmed my view that hunting North America is not the best value for money.

The quality of outfitters is spotty and a lot of stuff gets chalked up to its hunting, it’s the weather or it’s luck when in reality someone is cutting corners while charging real money for crappy services.

Mike

To be fair, I'll add that there are certainly some sketchy characters in the African hunting business. The worst ones can bend the rules, oversell, and cut corners just like North American rednecks.

Well said Dogcat.

I have found my dollars going to Asia for hunting lately. Less expensive than Alaska, more game, fascinating people, friendly people and an overall better experience for me.

You have to understand what you are getting yourself into when you step off the plane in North America.

Africa is fun but hardly an adventure. I can't afford the "true" adventure hunting in Africa.

Ski+3
Whitefish, MT

I cant respond with any personnel experience, But do know that the guys from NZ that I have talked too about this kind of hunt have all pretty much said not to rely on the guides. Advice given to me has been to study, make sure you know what you are looking at and dont count on guide being fit or competent.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
I cant respond with any personnel experience, But do know that the guys from NZ that I have talked too about this kind of hunt have all pretty much said not to rely on the guides. Advice given to me has been to study, make sure you know what you are looking at and dont count on guide being fit or competent.

They are not all bad. There are plenty of competent guides, fit guides as well. There are some I would go back with in a heartbeat. In fact, I have booked multiple repeat trips with some.

It is difficult to be as fit as you Kiwis with the mountains you have easy access to.

One of the more entertaining stories came from the NWT. A guy who filmed a sheep hunt for me was in the NWT filming another sheep hunt . This one was for TV. I happened to be going to the NWT a few weeks later. We had just arrived in Queenstown, NZ. My phone rang. It was the cameraman. He said he had just met the guide. His next comment was , "She's hot!" I started laughing. After the hunt, all he could do was rave how this woman was hell on wheels and tougher than nails.

Yeah for sure. Thinking about it as well, most of us kiwis are trying to hunt on a budget, which might exclude using some of the better companies. Im well aware you get what you pay for.

A friend of mine returned from a NZ hunt earlier this year and he had a blast.

He got some really nice trophies. The hunts were physically challenging and all his trophies were taken under fair chase scenarios.

He highly recommended NZ.

BH63

I had a great guide in NZ; all on foot, except when we hired a helicopter pilot to fly us into a National Park and we hiked out 25 miles on our own. I had a rifle and fishing rod, but didn't harvest anything, but it was really cool. Watched glaciers calve off into a lake above timberline, then started crossing a myriad of ice cold streams to find the river we would follow out (it ran into another one which we followed to our take out point).

I don't know the answer to the guiding issue. I have been on many hunts all over the USA(including Alaska) and never used a guide. I've only had a couple of hunts that I wouldn't do again.

I don't have a big grizzly rug or a sheep's head on the wall but I have plenty of good memories with family and friends and a freezer full of meat.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
The problem with "pure" success rate is it doesn't take into account the shape of the hunter or his/her marksmanship abilities, or perhaps most importantly, their "mental toughness" - I have heard from some outfitters in AK that they have had clients who after a few days got homesick, depressed about the weather, etc. and just left. I was on a moose hunt in AK in 2016 and met two guys from NJ; a father and son. They saw a "big moose" on the lake where the lodge and adjoining cabins were located. They spent their entire hunt based out of the lodge and neither one had a shot. I could not wait to get out of camp and set up a spike camp. Me and the guy who flew in together both got moose but a long ways from the lodge.

Along these lines I suppose is the fact there are a lot of hunters on "once in a lifetime" hunts who have never hunted the species in question (call it griz bears). After a few days of hunting and not seeing anything, they get depressed and lose focus, leaving glassing etc up to the guide. Experienced hunters know things can turn around awfully fast. Not always, but enough to know you hunt hard until the last hour of the last day.

I agree with what you said. I read a really bad review of a elk hunt in Idaho.

The outfitter responded that the hunter was extremely overweight and out of shape, and could not even get in the saddle of the horse without someone almost lifting him up. As far as climbing up mountains, forget it.

However, if a prospective client is honest with the outfitter about his/her physical limitations before booking, the outfitter should be honest enough to say that the hunt is probably not right for that individual.

As for bad attitudes, there is no cure for that.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
The problem with "pure" success rate is it doesn't take into account the shape of the hunter or his/her marksmanship abilities, or perhaps most importantly, their "mental toughness" - I have heard from some outfitters in AK that they have had clients who after a few days got homesick, depressed about the weather, etc. and just left. I was on a moose hunt in AK in 2016 and met two guys from NJ; a father and son. They saw a "big moose" on the lake where the lodge and adjoining cabins were located. They spent their entire hunt based out of the lodge and neither one had a shot. I could not wait to get out of camp and set up a spike camp. Me and the guy who flew in together both got moose but a long ways from the lodge.

Along these lines I suppose is the fact there are a lot of hunters on "once in a lifetime" hunts who have never hunted the species in question (call it griz bears). After a few days of hunting and not seeing anything, they get depressed and lose focus, leaving glassing etc up to the guide. Experienced hunters know things can turn around awfully fast. Not always, but enough to know you hunt hard until the last hour of the last day.

I agree with what you said. I read a really bad review of a elk hunt in Idaho.

The outfitter responded that the hunter was extremely overweight and out of shape, and could not even get in the saddle of the horse without someone almost lifting him up. As far as climbing up mountains, forget it.

However, if a prospective client is honest with the outfitter about his/her physical limitations before booking, the outfitter should be honest enough to say that the hunt is probably not right for that individual.

As for bad attitudes, there is no cure for that.

BH63

Yup.

On our first hunt in the mountains a very long time ago, we met a super nice guy from PA on the plane into the mountains. He had saved a long time for the trip to hunt mountain goats. When he got to the first mountain that he was going to have to climb, he took one look and said he couldn't do it. Funny thing was he had a pretty good attitude about it.

How does that factor into success rate?

Physical condition of the hunter is an issue. However, that is on the hunter to be ready and be able to shoot.

My issues have been with the overall scenario of the guide/outfitters not being able to perform or not truly qualified to perform.

On my Stone sheep/goat hunt with Scoop Lake, the guides were young but had experience. Two of them were New Zealanders and hiked up and down the mountains with ease. I kept up but it was a struggle. My partner and I both killed what were after and tipped them very well.

My point is that after watching the Shockey TV show, and his a top notch guy trying to run a top level area, you still may not get what you think you are getting.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
A friend of mine returned from a NZ hunt earlier this year and he had a blast.

He got some really nice trophies. The hunts were physically challenging and all his trophies were taken under fair chase scenarios.

He highly recommended NZ.

BH63

Sorry was meaning the stories Ive ben told from kiwis who have hunted alaska and canada.
There are issues with Kiwi guides too, but they are much different. In NZ they are more ethic based concerns that the paying hunter might not notice or know about.