About ten days ago, I posted that I would initiate a new thread concerning hunting for big game here in B.C. My intention in doing so, is to both attempt to explain what is happening here, what anyone concerned "may" be able to do to help and to offer what guidance I can, little as that may be.

I would like to stress, that I do NOT want a reiteration of previous threads and hope that, in this discussion, we ALL, me included, AVOID the political comments, personal jabs and animosity...no, I am not "going soft", I use this forum to assist with my thinking on environmental and related issues and I do learn here, otherwise, I would not participate.

I was both impressed by and a bit saddened to see some very decent Americans understand some of my feelings on the last thread concerned with this and wish me luck and also mention that they would love to hunt here, but, cannot afford it. To that end, I will offer some advice on how to get access to hunts for Moose, for example, here in B.C. that those with lower incomes might well be able to finance.....I can empathize with those with low incomes as I had to work like hell, as did my spouse, for our current situation.

So, who here wants to hunt B.C. and how do you plan on going about it?

arent Americans required to use a GO?

made 2 ten day horseback hunts in BC in the mid 90's- one just northwest of Muncho Lake(Ft. Nelson)area and the other in the Cassiar Mts(flew in to Watson Lake and took a bush plane back south). never fired my rifle on either hunt because I never saw a bull moose or mt. caribou. i don't mean a real trophy- i mean any bull other than a 2 year old. both trips in the second to third week of Sept. enjoyed the scenery and the experience but kind of lost my zeal for BC hunting. both areas were supposedly prime game country but you couldn't prove it by me. saw more grizzly than anything else. hopefully, things have improved since then.

If you flew into a high lake on your caribou hunt the animals might already have moved out,Mountain caribou migrate to specific lowland wintering areas,while bull moose that summered high will move down to the cows for the rut.The weather affects everything we hunt and fish for,and is the one thing that we cannot control! Monashee

quote:

but, cannot afford it. To that end, I will offer some advice on how to get access to hunts for Moose, for example, here in B.C. that those with lower incomes might well be able to finance.....I can empathize with those with low incomes as I had to work like hell, as did my spouse, for our current situation.

So, who here wants to hunt B.C. and how do you plan on going about it?

Dewey,
I must say, this is a far cry from your former notorious thread. I'll give you kudos for taking the time out to help fellow hunters no matter what their situation may be.
Personally, I'll be hunting BC in '10 for both/or whitetail and bighorn. My method on 'affording' it is simple - I wait for last minute cancellations. I picked up my stone sheep for the low teens and my dall for even lower than that. I have the luxury of being able to go within a week's notice in most instances. But, I've always gone with a GO and would not consider doing a hunt of this magnitude without one. And every guide I've had the pleasure of hunting with in Canada have been the hardest working I've met and the most fun I've been around as well.
Those whose dream has been to take a huge bull moose might well take heed of Dewey's advice/suggestions.

Dewey, please excuse my ignorance, but what are the rules again for non-residents (not aliens) to hunt in BC. I know there is an equivalent of the Alberta Hunter Host, but it is restricted to some species or areas? Some of that would be at the discretion of the Chief Conservation Officer (probably wrong title) in the area concerned?

Being extremely grateful and happy for the hunting opportunities I have here in Alberta, there are some species that I'll likely never hunt here. Mountain goat is one (very low draw odds). Grizzly (if the hunt ever comes back I'm still very low on the priority list) and caribou and thin-horned sheep (don't have them here, not counting the ailing caribou population along the border with BC).

I came close to booking a goat hunt this year, but job security worries put an end to that plan.

Just wondering what the rules are, last time I checked the rule book wasn't too clear on that. Unless my memory fails me, which has happened before! :-)

Frans

If memory serves correctly, any LEH draws are off limits for sponsored non-res. Canadians.

Dewey- Most here would have no problem remaining civil, if you could step down from your anti-American soap box.

Dewey, with all due respect; unless you own the property in question, you are just another outsider trying to tell another person how they should conduct their business.

Hunting in Canada is just a phone call and money transfer away, just like Africa or any other destination. I fail to see why you should have any more control over the actions of others, than any other bystander.

I can understand that you would like to reserve all the hunting you can for yourself, but unless you own it all you are just another talker.

Canada looks to offer some excellent hunting opportunities and I intend to take advantage of a few.

Take care,
josh

Frans, I will post the relevant sections of the B.C. Hunting Regs. Synopsis tomorrow, my hands are stiff and sore from splitting 30" Douglas Fir rounds with a 20lb, maul today, so, I don't want to type. BTW, are you on HBC as this is one good source of assistance for Canadians wanting to hunt here in B.C. and I will gladly do anything I can to help you.

JoshA. You do not seem to understand the situation here in Canada and the provinces. Here, there is relatively little private land and most hunting, certainly here in B.C. is conducted on "Crown Land".

Crown Land BELONGS to the people of Canada and the wildlife and FRESHWATER fisheries it contains are managed by the province they occur in. So, each Canadian actually DOES "own" these resources and they are "held" by "The Crown" in respect of the people, to put it simply.

So, the ...control... you refer to IS a basic right of all Canadians and none of us are ...bystanders...; this is OUR country and the game is OURS. The private landholders CAN refuse access to hunters here in BC, but, that is different in some other provinces and they DO NOT control or "own" the wildlife and must abide by the same regs. as all other citizens.

What this means, in terms of foreigners hunting or fishing here, is that WE DO ...own it all... and WE CAN allocate it as WE see fit. Canadian resources are NOT accessible merely by some form of payment, as in a ...money transfer... and our sovereign right to deny or grant access to them, as we see fit, is absolute and can be modified as WE see fit.

Courtesy, respect and an appreciation of the difference in Canadian and American, or, other foreign values usually will elicit a friendly and even generous response from we Canadians; however, an arrogant attitude that presents an overbearing and grasping approach to hunting here will result in a far different reaction.

In short, if people like me want to reserve all of our hunting for ourselves, it is not only our right to do so, any foreigner who chooses to attempt to deny this simply demonstrates WHY many Canadians are against foreign hunting and this IS a serious, growing problem which we have to deal with.

Canada, to you, may be ...just another destination..., to me, it is my home and native land and where I belong. I will do ANYTHING in the service of my country and we ...talkers... get results at the political level where the hunting regulations are enacted.

A word to the wise...........

great, lock it all up for Canadians and watch how fast the green movement locks you out of "Crown" land. the outfitter industry is a fairly powerful lobbying group and without "foreign" clients, it will wither on the vine and you will be on the outside looking in( which is fine by me, given your attitude).

Dewey- So basically you want to keep Canada's wildlife for Canadians only. Sounds great. Let's also do the same with oil, lumber and whatever other resources we have. Better yet, let's give control to the original "stewards of the land", the First Nations. What the hell, lets keep all our livestock as well for our own consumption.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by these posts other than reiterating the fact that you detest outfitters and Americans. I think we get that.
I'm also not sure how it is you plan to manage Canada's wildlife when First Nations have no seasons,bag limits and don't have to abide by most of the game laws we have to. That is the real problem facing our wildlife, not the handful of non-res hunter. Explain that one please.

Frans, here is the policy as given on page 9 of the 2009-10 B.C. Hunting Regs. Synopsis.

Non-Resident Hunters

Non-residents of B.C. hunting big game must be accompanied by either a licenced BC guide or a resident who holds a Permit to Accompany.

Big Game Accompanied Hunts

A non-resident of B.C. who is a resident of Canada or a Canadian citizen may be accompanied by a BC resident who holds a Permit to Accompany. Only one Permit to Accompany will be issued to a person in a licence year...........

The non-residents must show the Permit to Accompany or copy indicating the name of the permittee when purchasing their big game species licences.

A non-resident who is not a resident of Canada or a Canadian citizen may also be eligible under the Permit to Accompany providing they qualify under one of the required relationship categories.

Permits to Accompany may not be available for all species and areas ( for example thinhorn sheep).

These are the relevant sections exactly as they appear in the Synopsis; the obvious bias in favour of GOs with respect to Stones' and Dall's sheep, is only too evident.

So, I could obtain a PA to take you goat hunting, for example and even for BH sheep and Calis, but, not for Stone's or Dall's. I found this out the hard way a few years back when I volunteered to assist a guy from Saskachewan who invited me to hunt on his place there as I helped him with some rifle trouble. The boffins in Victoria refused any consideration of a permit and I spoke to them, at length about what I think of this bullshitt system....won't change things, but, made me feel better!

The Guide-Outfitters Association of B.C. is a well-funded and influential lobby group which has grown a lot in wealth and influence recently due to the huge sums of money being brought into the "hunting industry" by foreign investors. They constantly attempt to restrict resident hunters and have been quite successful in doing so, they are NOT our "allies" against the "antis" here, who are ALSO largely based in foreign countries, the USA and the UK and Germany...bit ironic, eh?

So, my intuitive opinion on this is that the chances of an enlargement of the Permit to Accompany system is highly unlikely to happen.

Since the latest caper by an "anti" just now taking place where I was born, ( he is a British immigrant of German extraction and has been here a whole FOUR years, WOW) was among my two motivations for initiating this thread, the other was what I originally posted, it is obvious that the entire situation is in flux and not likely to result in benefits to we Canucks.....what a surprise.

A good case in point is that my father's family first came to the USA, not Canada, long ago and then came to Alberta and BC some 140 years ago. I have first cousins by the truckload who live in Washington State and SOME were BORN in Nelson, B.C. and others in Wenatchee, WA. Now, I CAN "Accompany" the Canadian-born ones, but, NOT those born in the US and this holds true even if they are siblings....totally freakin' weird, IMHO.

My preferred solution to this, as I have a LOT of relatives in foreign countries, the UK, USA and Norway, especially, would be to remodel the BC PtoA system. Wanna bet that the GOABC would scream like a wounded Cougar if the "Moose and Goose" boffins try this?

The end of all of this is still shrouded in the "darkness" of various political agendas and the chicanery and totally disgusting behaviour of "some" as "S&P" points out, will likely play a huge part in the final resolution of it. Since the GOABC SIGNED an "allocation agreement" recently and NOW has been attempting to grab a greater share for their members to sell to foreign clients, I expect that there will continue to be hostility toward such people here and major changes are coming.

If, you DO want to hunt here, that is what I started this thread for and I may be able to help you with a goat, possibly a Grizzly and will do whatever I can. I would prefer to keep the politics of this to the other threads and just use this one for exchanging advice on hunting here, as I think that the entire foreign hunting situation has been sufficiently discussed here, for awhile, at least.

HTH, I have not even had my AM coffee yet!

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
Frans, here is the policy as given on page 9 of the 2009-10 B.C. Hunting Regs. Synopsis.

Non-Resident Hunters

Non-residents of B.C. hunting big game must be accompanied by either a licenced BC guide or a resident who holds a Permit to Accompany.

Big Game Accompanied Hunts

A non-resident of B.C. who is a resident of Canada or a Canadian citizen may be accompanied by a BC resident who holds a Permit to Accompany. Only one Permit to Accompany will be issued to a person in a licence year...........

The non-residents must show the Permit to Accompany or copy indicating the name of the permittee when purchasing their big game species licences.

A non-resident who is not a resident of Canada or a Canadian citizen may also be eligible under the Permit to Accompany providing they qualify under one of the required relationship categories.

Permits to Accompany may not be available for all species and areas ( for example thinhorn sheep).

These are the relevant sections exactly as they appear in the Synopsis; the obvious bias in favour of GOs with respect to Stones' and Dall's sheep, is only too evident.

So, I could obtain a PA to take you goat hunting, for example and even for BH sheep and Calis, but, not for Stone's or Dall's. I found this out the hard way a few years back when I volunteered to assist a guy from Saskachewan who invited me to hunt on his place there as I helped him with some rifle trouble. The boffins in Victoria refused any consideration of a permit and I spoke to them, at length about what I think of this bullshitt system....won't change things, but, made me feel better!

The Guide-Outfitters Association of B.C. is a well-funded and influential lobby group which has grown a lot in wealth and influence recently due to the huge sums of money being brought into the "hunting industry" by foreign investors. They constantly attempt to restrict resident hunters and have been quite successful in doing so, they are NOT our "allies" against the "antis" here, who are ALSO largely based in foreign countries, the USA and the UK and Germany...bit ironic, eh?

So, my intuitive opinion on this is that the chances of an enlargement of the Permit to Accompany system is highly unlikely to happen.

Since the latest caper by an "anti" just now taking place where I was born, ( he is a British immigrant of German extraction and has been here a whole FOUR years, WOW) was among my two motivations for initiating this thread, the other was what I originally posted, it is obvious that the entire situation is in flux and not likely to result in benefits to we Canucks.....what a surprise.

A good case in point is that my father's family first came to the USA, not Canada, long ago and then came to Alberta and BC some 140 years ago. I have first cousins by the truckload who live in Washington State and SOME were BORN in Nelson, B.C. and others in Wenatchee, WA. Now, I CAN "Accompany" the Canadian-born ones, but, NOT those born in the US and this holds true even if they are siblings....totally freakin' weird, IMHO.

My preferred solution to this, as I have a LOT of relatives in foreign countries, the UK, USA and Norway, especially, would be to remodel the BC PtoA system. Wanna bet that the GOABC would scream like a wounded Cougar if the "Moose and Goose" boffins try this?

The end of all of this is still shrouded in the "darkness" of various political agendas and the chicanery and totally disgusting behaviour of "some" as "S&P" points out, will likely play a huge part in the final resolution of it. Since the GOABC SIGNED an "allocation agreement" recently and NOW has been attempting to grab a greater share for their members to sell to foreign clients, I expect that there will continue to be hostility toward such people here and major changes are coming.

If, you DO want to hunt here, that is what I started this thread for and I may be able to help you with a goat, possibly a Grizzly and will do whatever I can. I would prefer to keep the politics of this to the other threads and just use this one for exchanging advice on hunting here, as I think that the entire foreign hunting situation has been sufficiently discussed here, for awhile, at least.

HTH, I have not even had my AM coffee yet!

So what type of "relationship status" meets the criteria for non res alien PtoA?

If BCFW were to legalize a PtoA for all non resident/non cdn, how many should they allow per year per person? 1,5,10..... At what point does this"taking friends hunting" become a business that needs to pay taxes,workers comp,permits,insurance,etc.
Or is your plan to restrict BC's wildlife for BC residents only?

May I suggest that you obtain a copy of the regs. for yourself and read them?

Are you a BC resident hunter OR a GO or employee of a GO? Are you a Canadian or a foreigner who resides here?

I have been totally honest and forthright about who I am, what I think and what I wish to see changed here and I will not respond to such queries UNLESS the person(s) concerned identifies himself and his REAL interest in the situation.

In short, based on your tone and comments, I think that you are a GO or employee and probably do not live in BC. So, either "man up" with some facts or stop trying to hijack this thread, which is not about the politics of the situation.

If, you want to present your views on BC hunting, whatever they may be, start your own thread, upgrade one of those from the recent discussions or whatever, but, do not try to turn this into a quarrel as that is not what it is about. Get it?

From the Regs.:
"A non-resident who is not a resident
of Canada and is not a Canadian citizen,
may also be eligible under the Permit to
Accompany providing they qualify under one
of the required relationship categories (ie, if
accompanied by a father, brother, son, uncle,
nephew, grandson, grandfather, mother, sister,
daughter, aunt, niece, granddaughter, grandmother,
spouse, father-in-law, mother-in-law,
son-in-law, daughter-in-law, brother-in-law, or
sister-in-law, but excludes cousins)."

So, dewey, you're wrong. You can take your siblings on a PtoA.

I'm an evil outfitter from Manitoba. I steal from residents and give to rich Americans!!!

I'm not hijacking this thread and what part about my last post had anything to do with politics? I'm trying to figure out what type of system you would like to see implemented and what you think would work, from a legal standpoint as well.

No, I am NOT wrong, the problem is that you CANNOT READ. I posted that I could not take those of my cousins who were NOT BORN HERE in BC hunting with a PtoA even if they were, ( as they are) siblings of those who WERE born here and whom I CAN take hunting with said PtoA.

So, your puerile and obvious attempt to discredit me and thereby my opinions has, as one would expect from your illiterate comments, NO validity and is typical GO bullschitt.

You have no interest in this thread and that is also obvious to me; you have yet to make a comment that contributes anything except discord and confusion, so, kindly start your own thread and argue with yourself.

Where does it state anything about place of birth? A non resident alien is just that, no matter where they were born.

You're avoiding my questions. What is your objective with this thread? You wanted to offer advice on how to hunt BC as an outsider on a tight budget. Let's hear it.

Man,you guys really do have a mess up there.
Does all of Canada have these problems,or just BC?Are the game laws the same ,or does each province make their own?

quote:

Originally posted by jb:
Man,you guys really do have a mess up there.
Does all of Canada have these problems,or just BC?Are the game laws the same ,or does each province make their own?

Each province makes their own, for the most part.

Wildlife, freshwater fisheries and forest resources among others are managed by the province where they are located. So, BC establishes it's own policies and laws, Alberta does as well and these differ due to cultural and biological factors and, sadly, the pernicious and destructive activities of the "hunting industry."

To further complicate matters, we have a population of aborigines here who quarrel among themselves and with the mixed race peoples known as "Metis" and THEY are also a federal area of responsibility and claim that all of Canada belongs to them. They often engage in illegal blockades and such violent activities and the governments let them get away with this........

jb, you have NO idea just how messed up the whole hunting-fishing situation IS here and it would take days to fully explain it. We have the GOs, Indians, Metis and "antis" all screaming about THEIR so-called "rights" and WE resident hunter-taxpayers pay for this with our hideously inflated taxes.................

So, you might understand just WHY guys like me are about ready to..."Tea Party"..., if, you catch my drift.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
Wildlife, freshwater fisheries and forest resources among others are managed by the province where they are located. So, BC establishes it's own policies and laws, Alberta does as well and these differ due to cultural and biological factors and, sadly, the pernicious and destructive activities of the "hunting industry."

To further complicate matters, we have a population of aborigines here who quarrel among themselves and with the mixed race peoples known as "Metis" and THEY are also a federal area of responsibility and claim that all of Canada belongs to them. They often engage in illegal blockades and such violent activities and the governments let them get away with this........

jb, you have NO idea just how messed up the whole hunting-fishing situation IS here and it would take days to fully explain it. We have the GOs, Indians, Metis and "antis" all screaming about THEIR so-called "rights" and WE resident hunter-taxpayers pay for this with our hideously inflated taxes.................

So, you might understand just WHY guys like me are about ready to..."Tea Party"..., if, you catch my drift.

The "hunting industry" in Manitoba, or Manitoba Lodges and Outfitters Association, has very little lobbying power here. In pretty much any Canadian province, resident hunters get priority. I imagine BC is the same.
Generally in this order:
1.First nations
2.Metis
3.Resident
4.Non Res. Cdn
5.Non. Res.-Non Cdn.-This would be the "hunting industry"
Correct me if I'm wrong, with proof.

FWIW, one of my guides also guides in BC. He's a Manitoba resident and the BC outfitter is a born and raised BC resident. He's also not the only Canadian guide depending on this job, let me assure you.
I don't believe a non-Canadian can be a guide in BC, so I don't know where you're coming from when stating that it only benefits Americans.
It's not only wealthy Americans that own outfits, they're the minority.

I'd like to know what you do/did for a living, Dewey.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
Wildlife, freshwater fisheries and forest resources among others are managed by the province where they are located. So, BC establishes it's own policies and laws, Alberta does as well and these differ due to cultural and biological factors and, sadly, the pernicious and destructive activities of the "hunting industry."

To further complicate matters, we have a population of aborigines here who quarrel among themselves and with the mixed race peoples known as "Metis" and THEY are also a federal area of responsibility and claim that all of Canada belongs to them. They often engage in illegal blockades and such violent activities and the governments let them get away with this........

jb, you have NO idea just how messed up the whole hunting-fishing situation IS here and it would take days to fully explain it. We have the GOs, Indians, Metis and "antis" all screaming about THEIR so-called "rights" and WE resident hunter-taxpayers pay for this with our hideously inflated taxes.................

So, you might understand just WHY guys like me are about ready to..."Tea Party"..., if, you catch my drift.

Geez, until now i never realized the hunting industry was destructive and pernicious. thanks for setting me straight, Dewey!! enlightenment is a wonderful thing. the only problem is the "greens" are going to carry the day and shut everybody out. united you stand-divided you fall.

No, I don't think so and I am one of the original early '60s environmentalists here in B.C. I am happy to enlighten you with the facts of our situation here in B.C. and if you would like more information, I shall do my utmost to provide it for your edification.

The GOs here are THE real threat to resident hunters and this has only come about during the past 25 years or so; it is due to the obsession with "trophy quality" that is the result of the writings of "dude hunters" like Jack O'Connor in US-based popular magazines.

If we and we WILL strictly control the GO industry and there are several methods of doing this, I do not see much difficulty from those you call ...greens... MOST people throughout BC are IN FAVOUR of resident hunting and while many object to "non-resident aliens" hunting here, even that can be dealt with, IF, the foreign-based GOs are eliminated.

I get around BC a lot and I speak with people of all sorts on this and other environmental topics and my honest impression is that hunting is going to experience a "renaissance" here in BC and it is slowly starting to happen.

People have, I think, seen through the distorted drivel of the "eco-extremists" AND of the "corporatists" who sell our resources for naught to foreigners. After almost a half-century of involvement with conservation here, I have never been so up-beat and confident about our future as I now am and I expect this to continue and to grow.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
No, I don't think so and I am one of the original early '60s environmentalists here in B.C. I am happy to enlighten you with the facts of our situation here in B.C. and if you would like more information, I shall do my utmost to provide it for your edification.

The GOs here are THE real threat to resident hunters and this has only come about during the past 25 years or so; it is due to the obsession with "trophy quality" that is the result of the writings of "dude hunters" like Jack O'Connor in US-based popular magazines.

If we and we WILL strictly control the GO industry and there are several methods of doing this, I do not see much difficulty from those you call ...greens... MOST people throughout BC are IN FAVOUR of resident hunting and while many object to "non-resident aliens" hunting here, even that can be dealt with, IF, the foreign-based GOs are eliminated.

I get around BC a lot and I speak with people of all sorts on this and other environmental topics and my honest impression is that hunting is going to experience a "renaissance" here in BC and it is slowly starting to happen.

People have, I think, seen through the distorted drivel of the "eco-extremists" AND of the "corporatists" who sell our resources for naught to foreigners. After almost a half-century of involvement with conservation here, I have never been so up-beat and confident about our future as I now am and I expect this to continue and to grow.

I believe this to be incorrect and truly believe many BC resident hunters will agree that the Metis and First Nations hunting rights are the greatest concern to the future of hunting, Canada wide.
The recent grantings of Metis Harvester cards in Alberta and Manitoba will prove this correct, wait and see.

The mandate is to hand over control of our wildlife to the First Nations.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
No, I don't think so and I am one of the original early '60s environmentalists here in B.C. I am happy to enlighten you with the facts of our situation here in B.C. and if you would like more information, I shall do my utmost to provide it for your edification.

The GOs here are THE real threat to resident hunters and this has only come about during the past 25 years or so; it is due to the obsession with "trophy quality" that is the result of the writings of "dude hunters" like Jack O'Connor in US-based popular magazines.

If we and we WILL strictly control the GO industry and there are several methods of doing this, I do not see much difficulty from those you call ...greens... MOST people throughout BC are IN FAVOUR of resident hunting and while many object to "non-resident aliens" hunting here, even that can be dealt with, IF, the foreign-based GOs are eliminated.

I get around BC a lot and I speak with people of all sorts on this and other environmental topics and my honest impression is that hunting is going to experience a "renaissance" here in BC and it is slowly starting to happen.

People have, I think, seen through the distorted drivel of the "eco-extremists" AND of the "corporatists" who sell our resources for naught to foreigners. After almost a half-century of involvement with conservation here, I have never been so up-beat and confident about our future as I now am and I expect this to continue and to grow.

Jack O'Connor wrote 50 plus years ago for Outdoor Life, so I hardly think he can be blamed for the current mess. why was a picture of a grizzly on the front page of "The Provincial" when i came through Vancouver 2 weeks ago, along with an article inside that was obviously slanted toward the anti-hunter movement? wake up before it is too late. hunters are not your enemies.

Again, I am a retired employee of three different resource management agencies and with a lot of working experience in private resource harvesting firms, both in forestry and the mining sector; quite frankly, I have FAR more education, field experience and "on site" knowledge of this entire situation than a Californian would.

I am WIDE AWAKE and I also AM a ...hunter... I have NEVER said that ...hunters...WERE or ARE the problem here and, BTW, J'OC WAS largely responsible for the "Grand Slam" bullschitt that HAS severely impacted BC wild sheep populations and helped finance the GOs in their nefarious attempts to restrict OUR resident rights.

The ...enemies... ARE those who want to take BC resources to profit from them, while deliberately attempting to cut out resident's access to said resources. An example would be the American tourists canning BC wild salmon at Port Renfrew in the 1980s and taking these home by the RV load...or, doing this with Kokanee Salmon at my home town in the '60s, until a few locals got a little "harsh" and these Yanks went back to "The Inland Empire" to piss and moan about how "greedy" we Canadians are because we DARE to think we have rights in our own country.

Well, here it is, politics and I suppose that I should have expected this here and not bothered with this thread to begin with. Fuggit, I have other things to do.

what is wrong with my sentences? this is 2009, not 1955, 1965, or 1985.

YES, EXACTLY and Canadians are FINALLY waking up to the grab of our resources by foreigners, about bloody time!!!

If, you have to ask concerning your writing, well,......

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
... the GOs in their nefarious attempts to restrict OUR resident rights.

The ...enemies... ARE those who want to take BC resources to profit from them, while deliberately attempting to cut out resident's access to said resources.

Dewey,

I have had the good fortune of hunting BC a half dozen times, as well as the Territories and Alberta. Wonderful country, wonderful people. I have made one or two lifetime Canuck friends along the way.

The one thing that blows me away about the BC residents right to hunt, is that the opportunities are almost unlimited.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a BC resident can buy an over the counter tag for bighorn, thin horn, moose, elk, deer, goat, caribou, black bear, wolf, etc. There are limited draw areas for some species.

From what I experienced, these same area that the GOs hunt are also open to residence. Correct?

The things IMO holding most residents back are:

1. Logistics. Its hard to walk from a road into sheep country
2. Time.
3. Money. Residences can as easily hire a plane as a GO. But it costs $$.

From my humble perspective, the BC hunters have it MADE. You buy a $300 or less tag, man up the cajones for a back country trip, and you are sheep, caribou, moose, or goat hunting. That, my friend, is one hell of great opportunity. NO other place like it.

So please explain what you mean by the GOs limit your access. Crown land is open to all residents. An over the counter tag and license (excepting special draws), and the WILL to get off a road, are all you need to go hunting any one of 6-8 species, correct?

What am I missing here?

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
YES, EXACTLY and Canadians are FINALLY waking up to the grab of our resources by foreigners, about bloody time!!!

You seem to think that Canadians care about your soap box speeches. They don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
Again, I am a retired employee of three different resource management agencies and with a lot of working experience in private resource harvesting firms, both in forestry and the mining sector; quite frankly, I have FAR more education, field experience and "on site" knowledge of this entire situation than a Californian would.

I am WIDE AWAKE and I also AM a ...hunter... I have NEVER said that ...hunters...WERE or ARE the problem here and, BTW, J'OC WAS largely responsible for the "Grand Slam" bullschitt that HAS severely impacted BC wild sheep populations and helped finance the GOs in their nefarious attempts to restrict OUR resident rights.

The ...enemies... ARE those who want to take BC resources to profit from them, while deliberately attempting to cut out resident's access to said resources. An example would be the American tourists canning BC wild salmon at Port Renfrew in the 1980s and taking these home by the RV load...or, doing this with Kokanee Salmon at my home town in the '60s, until a few locals got a little "harsh" and these Yanks went back to "The Inland Empire" to piss and moan about how "greedy" we Canadians are because we DARE to think we have rights in our own country.

Well, here it is, politics and I suppose that I should have expected this here and not bothered with this thread to begin with. Fuggit, I have other things to do.

.....bit of a hypocrite????????

quote:

Crown Land BELONGS to the people of Canada and the wildlife and FRESHWATER fisheries it contains are managed by the province they occur in. So, each Canadian actually DOES "own" these resources and they are "held" by "The Crown" in respect of the people, to put it simply.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of fact, and a case of putting the cart in front of the horse so to speak. In legal terms, which is always the bottom line, Canadians seldom "own" any resources, depending on the date of title, the resources are "owned" by the Crown. More specifically, the Crown "owns the land and the resources therein" but each of us Canadians has "property rights" granted by the Crown to the "private property we hold title to". No one has greater "property rights" to Real Property than does the Crown.

I hope this dispells any misconceptions regarding who "owns" what. More to the point, the term "owns" is rather misleading and wrongly conceived,

Bobby B.

BobbyB's comments are NOT ...fact..., they are an OPINION given by one who is NOT a BC resident and is quite obviously not aware of the current situation here in respect of land ownership, Crown, aboriginal, private and so on. I used the term ...owned... in the common sense to indicate the interest in Crown Lands, etc., held by Canadian citizens and thought this was obvious.

This entire situation is under review by both legislative assemblies and various levels of the judicial system here in Canada, as we speak and opinions on it are NOT ...fact...

BobbyB, when did you become a QC? Are you a member of the BC Bar or just the Alberta Bar?

Jack, I will reply to you in detail tomorrow morning as I am busy with my newest Rottweiler boy and am too tired to type. You raise some interesting points and I think (hope) I may be able to clarify some of this for you before abandoning this thread, which has not done what I intended when I initiated it and is now becoming exactly what I did not want it to, as I posted.

I have no time for or interest in arguing with imbecilic wannabe "outfitters" from other jurisdictions, even if they claim to be Canadians. If, I were a foreign hunter, I would be VERY wary of the sort of "outfitter" we see displayed here as the "guiding" will probably be as useful to you as the foolish comments posted.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
BobbyB's comments are NOT ...fact..., they are an OPINION given by one who is NOT a BC resident and is quite obviously not aware of the current situation here in respect of land ownership, Crown, aboriginal, private and so on. I used the term ...owned... in the common sense to indicate the interest in Crown Lands, etc., held by Canadian citizens and thought this was obvious.

This entire situation is under review by both legislative assemblies and various levels of the judicial system here in Canada, as we speak and opinions on it are NOT ...fact...

BobbyB, when did you become a QC? Are you a member of the BC Bar or just the Alberta Bar?

Jack, I will reply to you in detail tomorrow morning as I am busy with my newest Rottweiler boy and am too tired to type. You raise some interesting points and I think (hope) I may be able to clarify some of this for you before abandoning this thread, which has not done what I intended when I initiated it and is now becoming exactly what I did not want it to, as I posted.

I have no time for or interest in arguing with imbecilic wannabe "outfitters" from other jurisdictions, even if they claim to be Canadians. If, I were a foreign hunter, I would be VERY wary of the sort of "outfitter" we see displayed here as the "guiding" will probably be as useful to you as the foolish comments posted.

Would you like a scan of my passport now????

You always want everyone to leave the personal insults out of this, which I did, yet here you go again.
There's a Canadian website similar to this one, though I'm guessing you're banned from that one and any others where the mods exercise censorship.
I haven't visited this forum for nearly a year, yet who do I find spewing the same shit as the last time I visited,Oct.2008.
Go crawl back in your cave you narrow-minded, curmudgeonly old f**k.

You know,at first I took offense to deweys comments, and went out of my way to poke him in the ribs,but the more details I hear of how things are in BC,the more I understand why he is so pissed.
First nation and metis aside,as I dont know enough of the regs to have an opinion,The way the GO's are able to lock up huge areas of the country for private gain is criminal,in my opinion.
Shoot,people in my area get pissed if the forestry closes roads that are only a few hundred feet long. Just imagine if the road was 20 miles.

Actually, I am very right. Regardless of which province or which territory in question, the Crown holds superior rights to Real Property over all other identities. When a Canadian purchases Real Property, they purchase the Property Rights. The Property Rights of the Crown supercedes the Property Rights of the individual. For example, research what transpired with the Property Rights of Canadian citizens of Japanese ancestry in WWII and the related internment camps.

Bobby B.

For those seriously interested, here are some details of what is happening now in BC. The situation is NOT working for the average BC resident and very few ordinary Canadians can afford to hunt here...and they dammed well SHOULD be able to participate in harvesting the resources of their country.

Jack is correct, BC IS, in many respects, a hunter's "paradise", BUT, this is changing very rapidly and that is the basis of my concern. The rapid increase in populaton, the frantic scramble to "develop" fancy vacation homes for wealthy non-residents and the rush to grab the other resources of this beautiful place all are doing harm to our hunting and fishing.

We residents have the opportunity to buy tags for many species of highly desirable game and do, thus funding what little wildlife management happens here. However, as Jack posted, ACCESS is a serious problem and, as many do not seem to understand, the game here is "thin on the ground", due to climactic and other "limiting factors".

We have a "LEH" draw system for many of the most desirable species and more accessible areas; this was implemented ostensibly to "protect" the game from over-exploitation. It is cumbersome, expensive and it denies the residents of a given area the best opportunities at hunting/harvesting said game.

The well-funded GOABC, with so many foreign owned outfits as members constantly lobbies to extend the LEH system and to have access roads closed to any but foot or horse traffic, this to increase access to and harvest of the game in these areas by their clients and thus their profits.

Some of the situations involved are simply bizarre, as in the Cariboo-Chilcotin region, a couple of years ago. The GOABC chapter there actually proposed to the BC F&W that ALL resident hunters would HAVE to hire one of their members in order to hunt ANY game in our own province........

There is an "Allocation Policy" that gives the quotas to each user group and this is now done on a five year rotation. After, the most recent meetings with BC F&W and the various stakeholders, an agreement was signed by all concerned, including the GOABC.......and, THEN, they suddenly REFUSED to abide by it and demand a much larger share of the available game and this COMES FROM the resident allocation, as the Indians here are allowed to slaughter as they please........

So, with GOABC quotas being controlled by wealthy foreign "owners" of the big name GO outfits and their never-ending attempts to grab more, close access to the best hunting areas and use any means they can to harass, block and even threaten resident hunters, things for us are nowhere near as good as they appear from outside the province.

The solution???? Simple, break the GOABC, restrict hunting to citizens of BC and then a percentage to other Canadians and simply drive the destroyers the hell out of BC. BUT, there ARE decent, small family outfitters, people, like me, whose families pioneered BC and whose rights are equal to mine, no question.

There are other BCers, who have friends in foreign countries and relatives in the USA, UK or wherever and THEY want some access to hunting here for THEIR friends and folks. Our moderator, Canuck, is an example of this group.

We also have a SERIOUS problem with aboriginal demands and this is getting worse and more violent in Canada as time passes. We have the PETA vermin and lots of other dipshits who are OFTEN US-based (no offence intended, an azzhole is an azzhole!) and THEY have a LOT of influence in government decisions concerning hunting, but, do not help fund wildlife management as we resident hunters do....my, what a surprise as they are often rich as growing "bud" makes one wealthy............

So, as you can see, from this very abbrieviated commentary on our situation, BC is NOT the "paradise" that it once was and the GOABC and big bux foreign hunting has a LOT to do with this and things MUST change.

What to do? What would YOU do?

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby B.:
Actually, I am very right. Regardless of which province or which territory in question, the Crown holds superior rights to Real Property over all other identities. When a Canadian purchases Real Property, they purchase the Property Rights. The Property Rights of the Crown supercedes the Property Rights of the individual. For example, research what transpired with the Property Rights of Canadian citizens of Japanese ancestry in WWII and the related internment camps.

Bobby B.

Your OPINION has some validity, the Japanese example has been shown to have been an invalid action by government and all I am saying here is that YOU are offering an OPINION, not a fact.

Title here in BC is currently under review and thus my comments represented the commonly held view of most BC citizens in respect of Crown Land.

Llb.??????? I will check with a couple of the Barristers my wife supervises and see if I can improve my understanding of this as I do not pretend to be a lawyer, however, I do see people on various forums of this type here in Canada flatly state, ...WE own Crown Land...and that is what I attempted to convey.

Dewey, what I said is not merely my opinion but is a fact. I will reiterate in words more congruent to your previous wording. The Crown of Canada 'owns' all the lands within the boundaries of the country and the Canadian citizen 'owns property rights to the land he has purchased'.

Furthermore, the greatest property rights an individual can hold (not own) is that of an estate in Fee Simple. The holder of such an estate can divide his Property Rights so long as such is acceptable to the Crown. For example, the individual who holds title to 'such and such' (enter legal description) can offer some of those Property Rights to another individual for money. Such an exchange takes place between the Landlord and the Tenant. Although the Tenant now holds some rights, he holds less rights than the Landlord. In turn, the Landlord only holds certain rights but the Crown still OWNS the land.

Another example would be Mr. A holding title in Fee Simple to a regular 'city lot' in a residential neighborhood. Mr. A cannot suddenly, to the chagrin of his neighbors, operate a hog farm. The rights of his neighbors to be protected from such an occrence would be enforced by the Crown. Obviously, Mr. A can not act upon whatever fancy motivates him at the time. Nor can Mr. A decide to level his home and cultivate a productive crop of marijuana. The Crown defines this as illegal and Mr. A does not possess the rights to proceed in opposition to the Crown.

The people of Canada do not own any land within the borders of the sovereign state of Canada. The Crown OWNS the land and various parties HOLD property rights.

If you can dispute this fact, I'm very interested in reading your argument. More to the point, if you can dispute these facts, you might earn a hearing in the Supreme Court of Canada. Believe me, I would then make every effort to witness such a case.

Bear in mind, I'm not countering your argument regarding your perceived need to reassess hunting practices in British Columbia, in that I most completely agree. My sole intent is simply to clarify who owns land in Canada. And, that sir, despite your contrary OPINION, is most definitely the Crown.

Bobby B.