https://www.outdoorlife.com/de...losure-hunt-refunds/



Jim Shockey on the Real Trouble With the Border Closure: Here’s Why It’s Not So Easy to “Roll Over” Your Outfitted Canadian Hunt
Jim Shockey, a legendary Canadian outfitter, on the grim reality of how the border closure has rocked the guiding industry—and created major losses for American hunters

BY JIM SHOCKEY JUNE 16, 2021




The Canadian border will likely open in the next few weeks, but even with relaxed travel restrictions, the thousands of American hunters who booked trips for last year will have a difficult time making their dream hunts happen this year. Meanwhile, the thousands of Canadian outfitters who fought to keep their businesses alive last year, are still hanging by a thread. We have only begun to see the detrimental impacts of the border closure on our hunting and outfitting industry in Canada. Here’s a look at two perspectives—the client’s and the outfitter’s—plus, what you should know if you have a hunt booked.

The Client Perspective

You read about hunting in Canada, in Outdoor Life magazine, or maybe saw it featured on a TV show. You thought about it for a few weeks (or maybe years), ran the idea past your spouse, who gave you their blessing, discussed it with your best hunting buddy and when they agreed to come along, you picked up the phone and called the Canadian outfitter. The outfitter seemed honest and sincere, had a great reputation and their references checked out, so you booked the hunt.


You sent the 50 percent deposit check and two weeks later received the “hunt contract” in the mail, which you immediately signed, without reading it thoroughly, and mailed it back. Done deal. A few months later, early in 2020, you and your buddy sent the balance of your hunt price to the outfitter, as the contract stipulated and booked your flights.

Then came the COVID-19 pandemic.

The Canadian government closed the border to “non-essential” travel, meaning you, as a tourist, could not go on your scheduled hunt. At first you were upset about your hunting holiday being affected, but it was obvious there wasn’t anything you could do about it. You and your buddy read the contract more closely now and seeing that the contract clearly stated that “deposits” and “funds paid in full” were “non-refundable,” you contacted the outfitter and told them not to worry about the money, you and your buddy were willing to simply let the outfitter “roll the hunt over” to the following year.


You called the airline and while they wouldn’t return your money, they would give you a credit for the flight costs. They also said that when you rebooked the same flights down the road, you would have to book at the new prices, not the old price you originally paid. Fair enough.

COVID would pass and you wanted to do the hunt anyway, so it was not the end of your dream hunt, just a postponement.


The Canadian Outfitter Perspective

You read about the hunt in Outdoor Life magazine when you were younger, and maybe you saw it on TV. The wonder of the wild lands and the majesty of the animals, stuck with you and for years. You dreamed about making your living working as a guide and outfitter, taking clients on wilderness hunts and making client’s own dreams come true.


Eventually the day came when you could not ignore your calling any longer. You discussed it with your spouse and with their blessing, you mortgaged your home, wrote the biggest check you’ve ever written, handed it over to the previous owner of the outfitting territory and just like that, you shouldered greater responsibility than you ever imagined.

At first, it was a close race between mounting expenses and client deposits arriving for you to use to prepare for their hunts in the coming season—your first. You had boat repairs to pay for, trucks in need of fixing, gear that required mending, government fees to pay, maintenance cost on cabins, marketing and advertising bills to deal with. And that’s on top of the hundreds of unseen costs that you hadn’t realized were part of keeping the doors to your new outfitting operation open as you get ready for the fast-approaching hunting season.

The bookings were slow that first year. Nobody in the hunting world knew who you were or how good your hunts would be. And so, even after that first season’s clients paid for their hunts in full, a month before the season started, all the money they sent was gone. That first year, you only made the final balloon payment, the money you still owed the old outfitter, by using your life’s savings. Even though you did all the guiding yourself, after all the expenses that first year, there was zero profit.


You made ends meet, thanks to your spouse taking a job, and the second year proved better. Your first-year clients vouched for you, told their friends what a great hunt you provided, and the deposits started rolling in. Thank goodness, because without the client money coming in, you had no other funds available to pay all the same “getting ready for the season” expenses that you incurred the first year. The truth be told, it was tight for 10 years, but eventually you managed to pay off the rest of what you owed on the territory. On the good years, your profit margin on the $1 million in revenue you were bringing in was a healthy 10 percent.

More important than the money, you were a respected member of a small group of fulltime Canadian outfitters, who were running profitable outfitting operations. You were living the dream, making $100,000 a year living the lifestyle you loved.

Of course, making $100,000 a year wasn’t going to put you or your family on easy street; you accepted the fact that holidays were always going to be busman’s holidays, standing in a booth with your spouse, trying to sell hunts at the various conventions, which cost money, but at least those trips were before tax expenses. Truth be told, that $100,000 in profit, after you paid Canadian personal taxes, didn’t leave much to feed, clothe, and look after your family, or fix your children’s teeth, and nor was a new car an option. Dinners out with your understanding spouse were few and far between. But all in all, life was good as long as hunt bookings continued on track.


And so it went, one season would end and what was leftover from the fees that season’s clients paid you, would be enough to cover your family’s personal expenses for the coming year. Barely, but enough. New clients for the upcoming seasons continued to book hunts with you and send their non-refundable deposits for you to use to prepare for their upcoming hunts and, if all went well, you made your 10 percent profit. Thankfully once a season was over, the costs for that season came to a complete end and so every penny you were spending from that closing date on, was for the upcoming season’s clients.

Your operation increased in size, more staff, year-round employees, accountants and bookkeepers suddenly started sending you invoices and there were bigger insurance fees to pay every year and government quota fees continued to rise. But all in all, you could still swing a 10 percent profit margin.

Then came COVID.


By March 2020, with the spring season about to start, all the cabin rentals were paid, government fees were paid, all the expenses leading up to the upcoming hunting season were paid, the maintenance and gear costs were taken care of and the guides that worked for the outfit year-round on wages, were paid up. New temporary seasonal guides were organized and hired, the office secretary wages were up to date, and the massive amount of pre-season work was done and paid for. The only expenses remaining were the gas and food for the actual hunts and seasonal guide wages.

Most of your clients (except the few inevitable deadbeats) had already sent the remainder of their “hunt balances” 90 days before their hunt, as was stipulated in the contract they signed, monies which you used to prepare for their hunt.

And then, suddenly, without warning, came the announcement from the government. “THE CANADIAN BORDER TO INTERNATIONAL TRAVELLERS HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY CLOSED: STANDBY FOR FURTHER NOTICE IN 30 DAYS.” So, you got your team together and made contingency plans. It was a setback for sure, but the season would still work as long as the border opened in 30 days…but it didn’t.


You kept the doors open, continued to pay the costs, ready and willing to take your clients on their hunts.

The Canadian government left you hanging, like a puppet on a string. You had no choice but to keep your company operational, the doors had to remain open, your staff had to be there to answer phones, you had to keep paying and paying, because you had no way of knowing if the border would open.

Thankfully, the expenses for that lost 2020 spring season ended when that 2020 spring season ended and the expenses for the upcoming fall 2020 season and the spring 2021 spring season began.


Clients started calling the day the closure was announced. Most were civil, understanding. Most recognized that it wasn’t your fault, just “roll my hunt over to next year” they said, and you knew they thought they were being benevolent. You agonized and stressed over what to say to them. “I can’t?” Or “I’m sorry, your hunt has come and gone?” Should you tell them that you already paid for most of the hunt costs associated with their hunt? Didn’t they realize that? And unless those clients paid for those expenses again, there was no way you could afford to take them in a following year? And what about the government quota for the game animals? The quota was for that lost season and even if you could figure out the logistics of taking two seasons worth of clients in one, the government wasn’t about to give you a double quota for the following year.

Should you tell them that you already paid for most of the hunt costs associated with their hunt? Didn’t they realize that? And unless those clients paid for those expenses again, there was no way you could afford to take them in a following year?

You considered the option of simply returning what was left of the money your clients paid you to organize the hunt for them. Certainly, you could return the 10 percent profit you would have made on your client’s hunts, if they’d shown up. If you did that, it would mean you and your spouse would have to survive for the coming year by accessing your life’s savings account again, the money you’d both planned to retire on. There would be no retirement fund paying a monthly stipend when you grew too old to guide and outfit. So you had both worked hard to save some money for your golden years.

You could also return the food costs for the food you didn’t have to buy to feed the clients, because they never showed up for their hunts, that would add up to a few hundred dollars per client maybe. And there were the temporary guide fees that hadn’t been paid—you could return those savings to the clients as well. But when you sat down with your accountant and crunched the numbers, you came to the realization that, for the hunt the client paid $10,000 for, you’d already incurred and paid $7,000 of that client’s hunt expenses.


It was the most sickening feeling you’d ever had when you realized the most you could return to your clients, who had paid in full, was 30 percent—that was all that was left. You felt even worse when it became clear that because of the clients, the deadbeats, who hadn’t paid their balance in advance as their signed contract required them to, you couldn’t repay the punctual clients a penny. Insult to injury: you’d actually lost $2,000 on the deadbeat (although now seemingly prescient) client’s hunts.

About that point, the lowest point in your guiding and outfitting career, you started reaching for straws.

Government handouts? You put off telling the clients any bad news, because the Canadian government said they were going to do something to help small businesses and eventually they did, but not yours. Even if you had qualified for your fair share of the billions the government was doling out, it wouldn’t have solved the problem. It would have been like throwing popcorn at a charging bear.


What about trip and travel insurance for your clients? You grasped at that one as soon as you thought about it. Your literature to the clients clearly stated that you recommended they buy insurance for their trip. In fact, you even made them sign a form stating that they understood it was their responsibility to purchase trip and travel insurance. But when you canvassed all of your clients, only four had bothered to do so. Four clients who fortunately purchased the insurance before COVID was a foreseeable event, thereby ensuring they would be refunded the full amount, minus the insurance premium. Four clients you didn’t need to worry about.

From what you understood, the cost to purchase insurance for the trip was up to 25 percent of the hunt price, so the other 96 clients who booked one of your $10,000 hunts, gambled that nothing would keep them from being there for the hunt they booked.

Hindsight is 20/20, but you had warned them. They gambled. They lost.


Eventually you sought legal council. You and your spouse discussed spending the few thousand dollars it would take to get that legal advice because, with the family finances in dire straits, it was a big decision. With your government’s COVID response, your income was non-existent. But you and your spouse deemed the expense necessary—you needed to know how the law interpreted your untenable situation.

The lawyer, for $500 an hour, explained that after seven hours of research, that what you were looking at was something called “Force Majeure,” triggered by an “Act of God” and that it was considered to be a “Frustrated Contract” which Canadian Case Law clearly stated that in the case of a “Frustrated Contract,” caused by “Force Majeure,” any “Qualified Expenses” incurred by the party tasked with providing the service, can be legally be claimed against the contracted price, BUT that there could be no “Unjust Enrichment” by either party.

Your first reaction was to throw up. Lawyers always tend to make outfitters feel this way. In all the years you’d been an outfitter, you’d never seen the inside of the courtroom, so even though you had the legal right to claim the $7,000 you’d spent to prepare for your clients’ hunts, and every right to return only $3,000 of the $10,000 they’d sent you, it didn’t sit well with you. It wasn’t your style. It wasn’t what hunting and hunters were about. Litigation was for other industries, not for the industry you loved. Besides, your clients still wanted to come on their hunts, and you still wanted to provide that hunt.


So, you agonized and lost sleep. You waited, for more than year, for the government to tell you what you could and could not do the following month. You waited for word that the border would open and your clients could once again be able to come to Canada for their dream hunts. Expenses rose and you paid, but the 2020 fall season was lost and then the 2021 spring season was lost, too. Your clients for three complete hunting seasons were unable to cross the border, to get to you and to their hunts and for that entire time, you had to constantly be ready, doors open, phonelines working, electricity on, accountants paid, bookkeepers paid, full time staff paid.

The expenses piled up and the revenues dried up.

You postponed the day of reckoning, the day you would have to share the bitter pill with those clients whose hunts were disrupted by COVID, those clients who believed they were being “understanding” by simply telling you to “roll their hunt dates over” to future seasons.


You reached out to your spouse again for the thousandth time in the previous months, needing their wisdom and advice, yes, but mostly to look into their eyes and know that they didn’t see what you saw in the mirror—a failure. This time you wanted their permission to seek legal advice once again, but not on “Frustrated Contract” law. This time it was for advice on bankruptcy.

The Reality Today for Canadian Outfitters

The Canadian border will be open soon, but most certainly with restrictions. It is likely that permission for non-Canadian citizens to enter Canada will only be granted for those providing proof of two COVID vaccines. Further, it’s possible that quarantine and testing requirements will also be part of the criteria for entry to Canada. When exactly the border will open, with restrictions or not, remains a matter of conjecture. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next month, maybe in the fall—nobody knows for sure.

For an absolute fact, the Canadian border will not stay shut forever. When that border opens, there are some facts that all non-Canadian clients, who had hunts booked with Canadian outfitters for the COVID affected seasons (and possibly even the 2021 fall season), need to be aware of.

Canadian outfitters, have had virtually zero income for over a year, but have incurred most of the expenses associated with operating their businesses for three seasons in a row.
International clients (mostly from the USA) represent the vast majority of the demand for Canadian outfitters.
Booking Canadian clients, as has been suggested as a viable option by Canadian government, has proven to be problematic unless prices are lowered to a point where most outfitters would have to operate at a net financial loss.
In those cases where a client’s Canadian outfitter replaced their contracted international clients with Canadian clients during the COVID border shutdown, either at cut rate pricing or for full price, questions arise. Can the outfitter’s game inventory handle double the harvest number if that outfitter plans to “make up” the lost hunts in the following season, doubling those clients up with the clients they already had on the books for that season?
All reputable Canadian outfitters suffered significant financial losses during the Canadian border COVID shutdown. The extent of the loss, however, is greater for fulltime outfitters and larger outfitters with greater overhead expenses than part time outfitters.
Clients booked with the various Canadian outfitters presumably did so because they trusted that outfitter would do their best to provide the expected outfitted experience. This means clients expected the outfitter to be prepared in advance for the contracted hunt, which means spending money.
Canadian outfitting situations are different in regard to expenses incurred before a scheduled hunt. Some have to book and pay for rooms ahead of time. Some have fulltime staff to pay. Some have more equipment to maintain than others. But ALL have up front expenses.
A straw poll consensus of my contacts confirms that Canadian outfitters incur 30 to 70 percent of the total hunt price, before the actual hunt takes place.
Over the two spring seasons and one fall season that have been lost to Canadian COVID border closures, straw polls confirm that hunt prices have risen by 15 to 30 percent, due to increased demand and general inflation brought on by COVID. The $10,000 hunt that the outfitter sold that was supposed to take place in the spring of 2020 will cost a client $11,500-13,000 to take that same hunt in 2022. In other words, if outfitters operated like airlines, giving a “credit” for the lost booking, the client would still be required to pay an extra $1,500 to $3,000 for the same service they originally paid for.
Canadian outfitters are just now beginning to understand the ramifications of “inflation” on the costs of their contracted hunts. A $30 sheet of plywood, to repair damage to a cabin caused by a grizzly bear back in 2020, will now cost $130. The price of gas, vehicles, maintenance, and flying will all rise. All of which exacerbates the financial burden all Canadian outfitters are shouldering right now.
Every Canadian outfitter’s situation is unique. But most want to live up to their contracted promise to take the clients affected by COVID on their hunts.
Some Canadian outfitters are on a quota system, which allows them to take only so many animals in a season. Most outfitters in this situation lost their quotas for the seasons in which their hunters could not show up and, as of this moment, there is no indication by any of the Provincial or Territorial governments that those unused tags will be moved to future years.
Virtually all the clients who booked with Canadian outfitters and who had their hunts affected by COVID had the opportunity to purchase trip and travel insurance. So expecting the Canadian outfitter to simply roll the hunt over to a future year is tantamount to expecting the Canadian outfitter to be the underwriter for the insurance policy—after the fact.
Many Canadian outfitters are avoiding the hard conversation with their COVID closure affected clients. They do not want to be the bearers of bad news: There has to be a COVID surcharge applied to the contracted amount. This is just to allow the outfitter to remain in business and be able to take those clients on their hunts.
Many Canadian outfitters are willing to take a serious financial hit if it means they can live up to their responsibilities and take their COVID closure affected clients on their hunts.
Many Canadian outfitters would survive financially, albeit with at least four future years of zero profit, if the clients paid a COVID surcharge of 20 to 40 percent of their full hunt cost to “roll over” their hunts to future years. It’s an amount that is approximately equal to the cost of paying for travel insurance or the contemporary price of the same hunt if booked today.
The vast majority of Canadian outfitters want their clients to be happy and want to avoid litigation.
Legal action results in lawyers being the only winners. The best advice for all parties concerned, is to negotiate, not litigate.

Post-Covid Recovery for Canadian Outfitters

Hopefully the craziness of the last year full of COVID anxiety, fear, and, in some cases, hysteria, will never be repeated. But it happened. And before moving on to a post-COVID world, we need closure. Closure not just from the confusing government COVID messaging and protocols, but closure in our own hunting industry. That closure—for clients who lost their hunts thanks to COVID rules and regulations, which were not in any way the result of actions by the Canadian outfitters—needs to come from a place of empathy. This is possible when those clients have the hard conversation with their outfitter.

I’ll say it again: Your Canadian outfitter and all Canadian outfitters, especially those who are fulltime outfitters, have been hurt financially. It’s an inalienable fact that recovery, if it comes at all, will be slow and painful for those outfitters. These people are some of the finest human beings to walk this earth. They have been there for you on your previous hunts and, given the chance, they will be there for you in the future. We need the hunting industry to be strong if we want our children and their children to enjoy the hunting tradition that we all hold in such high regard.

So before you make that call to your Canadian outfitter, ask yourself: Would the loss of one year’s worth of your discretionary holiday dollars affect your financial future? Will your life be different if your outfitter cannot return the full amount you paid? Or is it worth it to you if they require a 20 to 40 percent COVID surcharge to take you on the hunt you dreamed about—and that they want to deliver for you?

there will be some intersting conversations between clients and outfitters for sure but assuming clients will pay 20 to 40% covid surchage may be hard to swallow ...

so lucky to be no more in the outfitting and guiding business ...

As I see it, to complicate this issue-which has been explored or presented from only the side of the outfitter-is also the fact that many clients have likely experienced many similar things with their own business or with the business that employs them. Therefore, negotiate is the key word. Understanding BOTH sides is also another key factor. In the end, having purchased trip and hunt cancellation insurance would have been the most important factor in this whole fiasco. Hopefully this article provides lessons learned for all going forward.

This is easy if the
outfitters won't roll over the hunts stop paying more then a 10% deposit. Pay when you get there like in Africa. People paid it isn't there fault they didn;t get to go on the hunt. Price of doing business

quote:

So before you make that call to your Canadian outfitter, ask yourself: Would the loss of one year’s worth of your discretionary holiday dollars affect your financial future? Will your life be different if your outfitter cannot return the full amount you paid? Or is it worth it to you if they require a 20 to 40 percent COVID surcharge to take you on the hunt you dreamed about—and that they want to deliver for you?

So ask your self if losing years of savings, planning for a once in a life time hunt.

Is worth it.

The blame for the outfitters troubles should be placed where it belongs.

The respective governments and agencies.

This what happens when you give control to the government.

Can Canadian outfitters survive without foreign clients? Sorry but we'll be paying for all the handouts here in the US for the next 2 generations. Income redistribution here is well underway disguised as "investing in infrastructure" and handouts to farmers ONLY IF THEY"RE B:ACK and so on.

Ask yourself.....are you interested in subsidizing Canadian outfitters also? I guess if money isn't an issue to you then the answer is yes.

My assumption is the only way an outfitter can survive this is to significantly increase the price of a hunt from now on. As the world enters an economic recession now, which most likely will be very long, they will have no other choice.

Be assured there will be MORE novel viruses. Fauci has already warned us all.

Anybody that needs warning that there will be more novel viruses in the future isn't worth warning.....but thanks anyway Captain Obvious Fauci.

North American outfitting is a rather unique business model... While not illegal or unethical, operating a business on a "borrow from peter to pay paul" is not a good business model. This is a primary reason I have always been hesitant to book hunts with NA outfitters.

I get how difficult it is to round up the capital to get started but farmers do it every year - borrow money to buy seed and buy crop insurance in case it goes to hell - the grain mill doesn't pay in advance for the crop..

A security deposit makes total sense and should be non-refundable but beyond that they should get at the completion of services rendered like any other business.

Why should I pay an outfitter the balance of a hunt 30 days or 90 days in advance of the trip? So they have $$$$ to operate on? Hell I'm lucky if my customers pay my invoices net 60...

So it's my understanding from the article that the outfitters received no government assistance?? Of any kind? No loan forgiveness, no food assistance absolutely nothing? I'd be seriously pissed at the powers that be. It doesn't matter what kind of business you run unless this is anti hunting-gun agenda. This is how revolutions start. Maybe it's time for you guys...

the way i read it is more a ponzi scheme where the next client is paying to the one just coming ... and for that here is the new covid tax just 40% ...

I guess this really needed to be seen as a business decision. Those business that stick to the high moral ground are going to be a lot better off that those that take the easy route. There were a lot of business and people that got hurt because of covid and the better one chose to go ahead and keep their commitment . I mean its part of business. Just go all the way down to a farmer who sells his crop on the futures market to insure his profit while it is still in the field. Then a hail storm, drought ,tornado or other factors come into play he still is required to go out and buy the crop even if it is at a higher price to cover his commitment. This is just a part of the deal. I do feel bad for the outfitters this happened to as well as every business that struggled and is continuing to but I do not think this gives them a pass on their obligations. That being said if your outfitter does honor his agreement with you I would hope those who can afford to would reward them with a serious tip to offset the covid year.
Those that stand up and do the right thing should be given credit and be highly recommended and respected in our hunting community.

quote:

Originally posted by tom ferry:
I guess this really needed to be seen as a business decision. Those business that stick to the high moral ground are going to be a lot better off that those that take the easy route. There were a lot of business and people that got hurt because of covid and the better one chose to go ahead and keep their commitment . I mean its part of business. Just go all the way down to a farmer who sells his crop on the futures market to insure his profit while it is still in the field. Then a hail storm, drought ,tornado or other factors come into play he still is required to go out and buy the crop even if it is at a higher price to cover his commitment. This is just a part of the deal. I do feel bad for the outfitters this happened to as well as every business that struggled and is continuing to but I do not think this gives them a pass on their obligations. That being said if your outfitter does honor his agreement with you I would hope those who can afford to would reward them with a serious tip to offset the covid year.
Those that stand up and do the right thing should be given credit and be highly recommended and respected in our hunting community.

Tom,

from what i gathered so far everybody has been impacted by covid 19 what makes the canadian outfitters different?

have you seen an increase of the fees in USA or on the african continent for hunts?

This whole thing is a can-o-worms and will be a damn mess for years to come.

The outfitters will feel justified taking more money from clients who have already paid-in-full which, with a small percentage increase, seems fine to me....but what do I know?

Something akin to UP TO 10% but this 20 to forthy f-ing percent seems outrageous to me...but what do I know?

The hunters will feel justified to get the hunt for which they paid-in-full without the "surcharge".

I guess the bottom line is: What do I know?
(don't answer that or I might get my cute little feelings hurt)

Zeke

We were supposed to go to Mexico last year for oscillated turkeys. We didn't go due to the virus. It was about a $4,000 hunt. We are going next year. I just got charged another $800.

Do I like it? No, of course not. Do I understand it? Absolutely.

Some here need to wake up. These outfitters incur costs, substantial costs LONG before the hunts. Many are hanging on by a thread. It is not going to take much to put them out of business.

larryshores, I agree. Brian

At least the Canadian outfitters didn't have to worry about rampant poaching and keeping an antipoaching patrol going during the lockdown.

Shockey's article makes it seem like only the outfitters were affected by the covid lockdowns. I guarantee you that many of the clients had businesses that were hurt by covid or were laid off from work due to covid. Some clients have worked second jobs and saved for years to go on their "dream hunt" and this is not just play money to them.

To me the best and most fair path forward would go something like this. The government should let the outfitter have 150% of their quota for the next 2 seasons and the outfitter should work in the clients from last season into this 2 year period with a 10-20% rebooking fee.

I would bet that if the outfitter didn't charge a fee, they would probably more than make up for it in increased tips from clients who understand the tough situation and feel like their outfitter really did them right.

I am finally at a point in my life where I could do a mountain goat hunt in Canada, and this happened.

I didn't have a deposit in last year, and now I refuse to book until Justin is in jail or at least out of office and replaced by a conservative government.

My heart goes out to anyone involved in the outfitting business in Canada including my friends Sunny and Werner in the Yukon.

The Yukon and NWT are welcome to join Alaska as part of the 49th state.

The problem is that this lost income will kill a lot of outfitters off, and those that are left will increase prices to make up for lost revenue.

I feel for them, maybe they can open in 2022 for good.

Australia and New Zealand have similar problems.

BWW, I can see by your post that you are not only a hunter and a political scholar but a compassionate and principled man.

Sad situation and glad I didn't send in a deposit. I do have heartburn paying in full for any product prior to delivery. Product quality can vary wildly. Insurance sounds like a good idea for many reasons......

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
We were supposed to go to Mexico last year for oscillated turkeys. We didn't go due to the virus. It was about a $4,000 hunt. We are going next year. I just got charged another $800.

Do I like it? No, of course not. Do I understand it? Absolutely.

Some here need to wake up. These outfitters incur costs, substantial costs LONG before the hunts. Many are hanging on by a thread. It is not going to take much to put them out of business.

Larry, i always appreciate your opinions but i d like to know what is the difference between a yukon outfit and any other outfit in africa or else in the world. did you get a 40% with no explanations? our cost of living in the yukon increased but not by 40% ....

I just think, politicians use bad situations to prove point and get drunk on power without thinking of consequences in the name of saving us from ourselves
Hate to insert politics in this but liberal way of thinking is what got Canada into this mess in first place

We Canadians will always be thankful for the wise words of Big Wonderful Wyoming and Boarkiller.

Every situation is going to different I am sure, but like many had a Black Bear hunt booked on Vancouver Island for 2020.
Had full trip insurance from the time I had booked the hunt.
On discussion with the Outfitter agreed to take the hunt to 2021, with a loss of 25% of the hunt price to help cover the outfitters up front costs.
Forward to 2021, once again the hunt can not take place.
Been in discussion with the Outfitter once again and hanging in the wait and see club as the Outfitter is trying to work out the options for his business, as was the point of the original article.
The Hunt Insurance now does not cover the remaining balance of the hunt due to the Insurance having a Time period from the original purchase.
So even when we try do the right thing it really does not work.
Have got basically full refunds from Airlines (from Australia), all the accommodation that we had booked for two weeks sightseeing was refunded without even asking. I am sure that these businesses also have large up front costs of infrastructure and wages.

Going forward does anyone really think any Insurance will even be available for hunts that does not have a huge get out of paying Pandemic clause written in it?

Do we as hunters, have the hunt paid up-front and then have to wear the full risk of it not going ahead due to more Pandemic shutdowns?

Definitely a personal choice to be hunting, but also it is the choice of the outfitters to be in the hunting business….

Well that’s my little ranting session over

quote:

Originally posted by sjb:


Going forward does anyone really think any Insurance will even be available for hunts that does not have a huge get out of paying Pandemic clause written in it?

Do we as hunters, have the hunt paid up-front and then have to wear the full risk of it not going ahead due to more Pandemic shutdowns?

I doubt the insurance will be available for the pandemic. Ask yourself a logical question. If a hurricane was actively going, do you think one could buy new home insurance in hurricane prone areas while it was still out there? Doubtful. Why would an insurance company insure against an event that is actively going on? It would be a bit like buying fire insurance for your house while the hpuse is burning.

Did anybody's trip insurance payout due to COVID?

Larryshores is absolutely right, they are not going to insure for covid related events. A couple of years ago when we were having a really bad fire season, with lots of people being evacuated from their homes ahead of fires, the insurance companies refused to sell fire insurance to people applying for a new policy...such as when buying a new home. No insurance, no mortgages either.

Moving forward we will just have to wait and see what sort of responses our fellow hunters get when they book a hunt and apply for insurance.

Singleshot- The answer is NO.

I just had reason to communicate with a large, well known organization. The renewal for their event cancellation coverage went up in price about 80%. The policy in place NOW still has the communicable disease coverage. However, at renewal, it will be excluded.

I had Canadian fishing trip booked for Diefenbaker lake, this is a second year I can’t go and I paid full price.
Been ther few times before and it’s great fishing
I honestly told Allen not to worry about the money I paid ( in full for two )
I will pay for next year in full as it’s only money and sometimes you just help friends a bit.
Least some of us can do and just remember, last guy that took money with him was Attila “The Gods Whip” and nobody found them yet…
That being said, I will plan moose hunting in Canada either this year or next for sure as it’s been since 2017 since my last moose

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I had Canadian fishing trip booked for Diefenbaker lake, this is a second year I can’t go and I paid full price.
Been ther few times before and it’s great fishing
I honestly told Allen not to worry about the money I paid ( in full for two )
I will pay for next year in full as it’s only money and sometimes you just help friends a bit.
Least some of us can do and just remember, last guy that took money with him was Attila “The Gods Whip” and nobody found them yet…
That being said, I will plan moose hunting in Canada either this year or next for sure as it’s been since 2017 since my last moose

Good on you for doing that. I am sure the lodge owner appreciates how you have responded to a crumby situation.

Kathi posted an excellent article by Jim Shockey about the Border Closer and it's ramifications. This was followed by a thoughtful, intelligent discussion by a number of AR posters.

Then along came Big Wonderful Wyoming and Boarkiller to make their standard pitifully stupid statements.

I addressed their comments with a small dose of good old Canadian sarcasm. That was a waste of time.

I will try again with some facts.

The Canadian federal and provincial governments of the day, both liberal and conservative, are working as hard as they can to contain the Covid Pandemic and to get Canadians vaccinated. They are doing it to minimize the death and despair that is the world wide pandemic. My province, British Columbia is doing an outstanding job.

They do this to save thousands of lives, not to help outfitters to pay their bill or to please American hunters.

Big Wonderful Wyoming, I assume that you are a German citizen who is temporally dwelling in the USA. You have posted that you plan to go back to Germany soon.

On this thread you posted some nonsense about, "I refuse to book until Justin is in jail..." and,
"The Yukon and NWT are welcome to join Alaska as part of the 49th state."

I don't think you have the knowledge or credibility to make public statements like that. In fact I doubt you could even comment accurately on how you local county is handling the pandemic.

Boarkiller, you are a complete waste of time but I just have to draw attention to one of your statements, "...liberal way of thinking is what got Canada into this mess in first place."

Really? I though the pandemic was the problem. Your silly statement suggests that if we had a Conservative federal government they would not be trying so hard to save lives and they would be letting people like you and Big Wonderful Wyoming come into our country to play.

Incidentally, have either one of you two jackasses gotten your vaccinations?

Brian- The Canada situation rests in Trudeau's lap. He totally botched the vaccine acquisition. You are all paying the price for his incompetence. I wish you well in November. And hoping the outfitting industry can hang on for another year.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
We were supposed to go to Mexico last year for oscillated turkeys. We didn't go due to the virus. It was about a $4,000 hunt. We are going next year. I just got charged another $800.

Do I like it? No, of course not. Do I understand it? Absolutely.

Some here need to wake up. These outfitters incur costs, substantial costs LONG before the hunts. Many are hanging on by a thread. It is not going to take much to put them out of business.

Larry, i always appreciate your opinions but i d like to know what is the difference between a yukon outfit and any other outfit in africa or else in the world. did you get a 40% with no explanations? our cost of living in the yukon increased but not by 40% ....

Sorry, I missed this.

I was told that they incurred certain costs in the year we didn't go. They will have to incur those cost again I am told.

I asked for no further proof. I was fine with it.

By the way, it was 20% not 40%.

I have 2 hunts in Africa that have been postponed from a prior year. Thus far, no one has asked for any adjustment. I am hoping that both happen this year.

I have a agreement to go whitetail hurting Alberta. It was so far in the future ( 3 years) and I had hunted with these people before, they didn't make me put up a deposit. At This point, I suspect that it will be much further out in terms of the year going. I fully expect a price increase.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Kathi posted an excellent article by Jim Shockey about the Border Closer and it's ramifications. This was followed by a thoughtful, intelligent discussion by a number of AR posters.

Then along came Big Wonderful Wyoming and Boarkiller to make their standard pitifully stupid statements.

I addressed their comments with a small dose of good old Canadian sarcasm. That was a waste of time.

I will try again with some facts.

The Canadian federal and provincial governments of the day, both liberal and conservative, are working as hard as they can to contain the Covid Pandemic and to get Canadians vaccinated. They are doing it to minimize the death and despair that is the world wide pandemic. My province, British Columbia is doing an outstanding job.

They do this to save thousands of lives, not to help outfitters to pay their bill or to please American hunters.

Big Wonderful Wyoming, I assume that you are a German citizen who is temporally dwelling in the USA. You have posted that you plan to go back to Germany soon.

On this thread you posted some nonsense about, "I refuse to book until Justin is in jail..." and,
"The Yukon and NWT are welcome to join Alaska as part of the 49th state."

I don't think you have the knowledge or credibility to make public statements like that. In fact I doubt you could even comment accurately on how you local county is handling the pandemic.

Boarkiller, you are a complete waste of time but I just have to draw attention to one of your statements, "...liberal way of thinking is what got Canada into this mess in first place."

Really? I though the pandemic was the problem. Your silly statement suggests that if we had a Conservative federal government they would not be trying so hard to save lives and they would be letting people like you and Big Wonderful Wyoming come into our country to play.

Incidentally, have either one of you two jackasses gotten your vaccinations?

I am not going to get into the name calling, etc. To quote you:" The Canadian federal and provincial governments of the day, both liberal and conservative, are working as hard as they can to contain the Covid Pandemic and to get Canadians vaccinated."

Do you really think the Canadian government worked hard at getting a vaccine on a timely basis? From the accounts I read, it sees they caused the vaccine to acquired very late in the game.

While the goal is to save lives, some things can be taken to an extreme. I think plenty of places in the US and Canada have gone too far. Lots of lives were wrecked in the process. Plus many places elsewhere. A goods part of Australia is currently on lockdown over 4 people getting sick.

Governments everywhere have a responsibility to make sure there is a functioning economy.

Justin Trudeau the boy king has his head pretty far up his butt. He does not have enough life experiences to be running a country. Not saying Joe Biden is qualified to run a country either.
The difference is Trump’s administration did the warp speed program to develop a successful vaccine(s) on their (USA) watch , while Justin Trudeau relied on the Chinese Communist Party . Trudeau’s poor judgement relied on the CCP who introduced the pandemic to the world to provide Canada with the CCP developed vaccine . See the difference?
I have enjoyed my Canadian outfitter friends and the hunting and fishing adventures in the Yukon, BC, NWT and Ontario. No one is the winner in these destroyed seasons.
By the way, my many educated Chinese friends living in Shanghai refuse to take their own CCP supplied COVID vaccines and the CCP government is not forcing this educated group of Chinese to take their bogus vaccine.
Again Trudeau , got in bed with the Chinese Communist Party to supply Canadians with their bogus Chinese vaccines delaying a positive Canadian response to the virus’s for over one year.
Why would Trudeau go to the Chinese? Beyond any logical comprehension.

Larry, Respectfully, I don't agree with you.

There were some problems to begin with, but nothing like the Trump mess.

Our economy has functioned pretty well. Saving lives is a priority.

"No one is a winner.."
No? The thousands of people that didn't die of Covid in Canada are winners.

A good balance was maintained in BC between safety and the economy.

"Governments everywhere have a responsibility to make sure there is a functioning economy."
You think? Larry I am a an international businessman. I get that.
Everyone gets that.

4WD, Thanks for your well researched and thoughtful comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Larry, Respectfully, I don't agree with you.

There were some problems to begin with, but nothing like the Trump mess.

Our economy has functioned pretty well. Saving lives is a priority.

"No one is a winner.."
No? The thousands of people that didn't die of Covid in Canada are winners.

A good balance was maintained in BC between safety and the economy.

"Governments everywhere have a responsibility to make sure there is a functioning economy."
You think? Larry I am a an international businessman. I get that.
Everyone gets that.

I don’t recall saying “no one is a winner.”

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Kathi posted an excellent article by Jim Shockey about the Border Closer and it's ramifications. This was followed by a thoughtful, intelligent discussion by a number of AR posters.

Then along came Big Wonderful Wyoming and Boarkiller to make their standard pitifully stupid statements.

I addressed their comments with a small dose of good old Canadian sarcasm. That was a waste of time.

I will try again with some facts.

The Canadian federal and provincial governments of the day, both liberal and conservative, are working as hard as they can to contain the Covid Pandemic and to get Canadians vaccinated. They are doing it to minimize the death and despair that is the world wide pandemic. My province, British Columbia is doing an outstanding job.

They do this to save thousands of lives, not to help outfitters to pay their bill or to please American hunters.

Big Wonderful Wyoming, I assume that you are a German citizen who is temporally dwelling in the USA. You have posted that you plan to go back to Germany soon.

On this thread you posted some nonsense about, "I refuse to book until Justin is in jail..." and,
"The Yukon and NWT are welcome to join Alaska as part of the 49th state."

I don't think you have the knowledge or credibility to make public statements like that. In fact I doubt you could even comment accurately on how you local county is handling the pandemic.

Boarkiller, you are a complete waste of time but I just have to draw attention to one of your statements, "...liberal way of thinking is what got Canada into this mess in first place."

Really? I though the pandemic was the problem. Your silly statement suggests that if we had a Conservative federal government they would not be trying so hard to save lives and they would be letting people like you and Big Wonderful Wyoming come into our country to play.

Incidentally, have either one of you two jackasses gotten your vaccinations?

Look Brian, read carefully…”liberal way of thinking” and believe me, it’s that way in plenty of our states here as well and it is not an accusation of people but politicians in power.
Think what you want of me, the thing is, we all have friends and families on both sides of the border and in some way, border between US and Canada is waste if you ask me.
BWW is American, serving in Us forces if you have not noticed and he is entitled to his opinion.

FYI , I did contracted Chink thingy and 3 months later got the vaccination, Pfizer and both doses
That being said, I miss Trump…