Guiding territories are under a quota system for amount of animals that can be taken. Outfitters pay a fee for rights to exclusive areas in most western provinces and have exclusive guiding rights in that area. Residents can hunt anywhere they choose and can hunt freely in an outfitters territory as it is the property of all residents. Guides are alloted certain numbers of tags and given exclusive territories to prevent an excessive amount of people trying to guide in the same area and to prevent overharvest.. most of these areas are remote and not many residents actually get into these areas although they are allowed.

Here in the southern Northwest Territories, (in the high Arctic, everything is controlled by the Hunter/Trapper organizations)

1. Do guides pay the government for the right to a certain area and then nobody else can come in there and guide in that area.
A. The outfitter pays for a land lease for the camp, and a licence for an area, plus umpteen other permits.

2. Do guides pay the government for each animal taken out of that area in addition to the license fee that a hunter pays to hunt in that area.
A. No, but there are quotas for some animals.

3. Does one have to be a Canadian resident to be a guide.
A. Yes, to be a guide or employee of any type (cook, packer, etc.) you must be a Canadian resident, and your application swears to that residency.

4. Are there any other qualifications that a guide or outfitter must fulfill in order to guide in Canada.
A. A few areas have guide tests, but the tendency is to allow the outfitter to train and qualify. For our operations, I require 2 years apprenticeship under senior guides and then, usually a written test. There is an excellent Red Seal Journeyman Guide apprenticeship program available throughout Canada, but it unfortunately hasn't taken off or been marketed to the industry.

5. If a guide has a concession in an area, does that mean that nonguided hunters cannot hunt in that area?
A. Resident hunters are at the top of the totem pole and are basically only restricted from National Parks.

Anymore questions?

~Arctic~

Artic

Yes, another question.

How did it get to be this way. Was it lobbying by guides at your legislatures, or what.

I guess what I am getting at is, what is the theory or the reason for not allowing nonresidents to hunt without a guide. And maybe, what could be the reason for not allowig nonresidents to be guides.

Blue

Alot of lobbying was done by the guides, yes.

But there are other factors in the picture.

If anyone who wanted to hun in BC just showed up and bought a liscence, we'd have most of NA here every year, and our game populations would probably be impacted.

Not only that, but there is alot of terrain in BC that is true wilderness, and there would be great potential for someone who is not used to it to become lost or injured or ???

There is no way anybody in BC wants unrestricted acess for hunting for non residents.

So the good people of Canada want to take full advantage of all that is good from the United States, but not let those from the United States take advantage of all things good in Canada.

I am not suggesting that licenses should be unlimited. They are not unlimited here in the U. S. either. However, If a person wants to accept the risk to go into true wilderness to hunt if he or she is lucky enough to draw a license, then let the person accept the risk. It is probably statistically a whole lot riskier to drive a car in Canada, but that is allowed!!!!!

Blue

O.K., that is a bit off the mark and you need to realize that Canada is NOT a somewhat colder extension of the USA; we are a sovereign country and we do things differently here. I would add that I, as a Canadian, cannot go to Alaska and go hunting on my own and I have the wilderness skills and training, not to mention experience, required to do so.

If, you have not actually been in B.C., north of Prince George or the Yukon or the N.W.T., you cannot begin to imagine what it is like. This is country that regularly kills even native-born, highly experienced, professional outdoorsmen when they make one small mistake, this is NOT the Mid-West.

We already have a large number of Americans coming here to ski-mountaineer in our wilderness parks and they are regularly killed in avalanches; my younger brother is one of the people who riskes his life, every winter, flying in to recover the corpses. The majority of these people are actually experienced at winter sports, but, they cannot cope with the enormous empty spaces, the severe weather changes and the level of avalanche risk; they also are almost always over confident and will not listen to us when we warn them about risks.

We have tax supported search and rescue services here and it is getting extremely costly to rescue or remove the corpses of people from foreign countries who are not wise enough to hire a guide or stay within marked boundaries. The situation is becoming insupportable.

Another thing is that wildlife is "thin on the ground" here due to environmental limiting factors and resident hunting pressure on the more vulnerable species is increasing, Stone's Sheep being one example. The old attitude toward trophy hunting is rapidly fading and most residents are strongly opposed to it. The influx of wealthy foreigners into the "Guide-Outfitter" business is deeply resented as many young Canadians cannot compete in financail terms whenever a good territory comes on the market.

So, there are many practical reasons why the situation is as it is; many of the economically non-viable ranches in the best game areas have been bought by wealthy people from various countries and the locals resent this as large areas of the best hunting areas are then "off limits" to them. There is one of these situations, in particular, that some of us are just outraged about.

In any event, the situation concerning guiding and non-resident hunting in B.C., at least, is going to get much more restrictive in the near future and I expect to see some species, such as Grizzlies, protected. Others, such as the various Sheep, will become "one per life" or something like that and this within 10 yrs. If, I wanted to hunt B.C. and I were an American, I would do it now 'cause the good old days are about over with. As far as guiding, I'd forget about it 'cause it ain't gonna happen.

There goes kmtnboy off again on beating his chest about what a bad ass he is, and that the rest of us are a bunch of stupid American's with no place in the woods.

I think the folks on this forum have got your point, what ever that is, and are tired of hearing about your so called "expert" opinion. For being in the woods as much as you say, you sure spend WAY too much time behind that keyboard. I have met hunters like you in the field, and if they have done everything they have said they would be over 200 years old.

"We have tax supported search and rescue services here and it is getting extremely costly to rescue or remove the corpses of people from foreign countries who are not wise enough to hire a guide or stay within marked boundaries. The situation is becoming insupportable."

Give me a break....
MG

From reading a bit about guides and guiding in Canada, it seems that there are "concessions", which I assume means that if a person wants to start a guiding business in Canada that person has to do something with the Government in order to be able to guide in a certain area. Whether that means pay the government each year for the right to be the only person in that area guiding or not I don't know.
So my questions are these:

1. Do guides pay the government for the right to a certain area and then nobody else can come in there and guide in that area.
2. Do guides pay the government for each animal taken out of that area in addition to the license fee that a hunter pays to hunt in that area.
3. Does one have to be a Canadian resident to be a guide.
4. Are there any other qualifications that a guide or outfitter must fulfill in order to guide in Canada.
5. If a guide has a concession in an area, does that mean that nonguided hunters cannot hunt in that area?

(no, I don't want to be a guide in Canada, even though I bet it would be fun. I would just like to understand that system a bit better)

Blue

I don't buy it. And the reason that I don't buy it is because, as I understand it, it is legal to go into that back country all one wants anytime one wants without a guide. the only thing it is illegal to do is carry a rifle and shoot an animal while you are back there without a guide.



Ever heard of assumption of the risk? Thats what they tell you now at the Grand Canyon. YOu go close to the edge, you assume the risk. You fall off, you get killed. Period. If somebody needs to get rescued, make them pay for it.



Here in Hennepin County we have a world class tax supported hospital that will take care of anyone, from anywhere, even foreign countries, if they have an emergency.



With all due respect, your younger brother risks his life because he chooses to risk his life in order to earn a living.



Don't feel bad, many young americans cannot compete with the wealthy people that come here from all over the world to hunt our game as well.



Chuck



Nice of you to get in the conversation. but there is no need to call me asinine or use the words diddly squat. I respect what you and Kuetenay are saying, and I believe both of you to be gentlemen that can carry on a valid argument without resorting to personal attacks. I am making a point. Argue the point all you want. But don't turn this into a personal attack becasue it is not.



Blue

Blue, as you know, I do not resort to personal invective and also reply to p.m.s from you and quite a number of other guys from the U.S. who frequently ask my advice concerning outdoor equipment and so forth. Fortunately, I have the time to do this as I retired young and I also enjoy these debates, even the odd little dig at each other in a friendly fashion.

The situation is actually a very complex one, having to do with the very different attitudes on various issues that exist in our two nations. When I still lived in the Kootenays, I had a place on the shore of Kootenay Lake and many Americans would come to stay at the resorts close by. They were always surprised at the lack of fences and our casual attitude about private property and "trespass" as most of us didn't care if a vacationing couple from Texas walked across our beach, for example.

On summer nights, I would often find American tourists who had taken the wrong turn in the trail, in heavy timber, emerging right in front of my trailer. They would invariably be quite concerned about it being private property and most apologetic. I would tell them that they were welcome and to not worry about it and then I would be told that in the US, trespass on private property is a very serious issue.

We have a different attitude toward land, resources, wildlife and hunting. I have no preoblem with non-resident hunting, but, I can tell from many interactions with resident hunters, Aboriginals, gov't types and the anti-hunting, environmentalist types that non-resident hunting in B.C. is rapidly becoming a thing of the past; the Sheep quota up north was cut 17% this year alone, actually, the U.S.F.W.S. should get some of these Stone's and plant them somewhere as they did Californias from B.C. some years back.

Your point about the Hennepin county hospital-tell me, is Weather Karkinnen REALLY a surgeon there-is not quite valid, IMO, as the people rescued here are putting themselves in harm's way deliberately and, often against the advice of the local snow control professionals. Also, there is a bit of difference in rescuing someone from 8000ft. in a short break in foul weather with a JetRangerII and helping the ill and injured in a hospital. My brother is an EMT, my wife is a former "outpost nurse" in the Yukon-NWT and I did a few search-rescue jobs in my employment, so, I have a bit of experience here.

In any event, the movement here is toward mandatory guides for quite a lot of outdoor activities and they will have to be certified. You and I may not agree with this, but, I think it will happen. Things are changing very much here and I honestly think that the hunting and fishing that we have taken for granted is going to be controlled by the Aboriginals; you and I were just born too late, I guess!

Anyway, that's the way it is, not much you can do about it. If, you REALLY want to bushwhack up here, I would buy a tiny piece of property and that ownership seems to help with getting a resident's licence; it's worth a try.

Kutenay

Yes, it is true that you have answered many questions for me, and I am here to say that I appreciate it very much.

I also think that there is nothing wrong with the aboriginal people getting a piece of the pie so to speak. I have said that over and over here in Minnesota in support of tribal gaming laws, and I have opposed the State of Minnesota going back on their agreement that they would not open state sponsored gaming facilities in competition with native americans. Although I do not feel responsible for what European people did 600 years ago, there is no doubt in my mind that they basically stole this land from the native people, and the native people will always deserve compensation for it.

So, I guess I will change my tune and say that I would be happy to pay a fee for the privilege of hunting in BC if that fee went strictly to the native people.

Blue

You have to understand that 35 years ago there was NO non-resident hunting, and it took a lot of work to get it implemented. It was sold as an industry that would offer jobs to the locals that wanted it, and jobs for many were scarce. So only residents could be guides, and outfitters (who better understood marketing and lived nearer the market)had to be Canadian.
With the Free Trade Agreement things had to change due to international agreements. Outfitters could then be from anywhere, but to protect jobs, guides could only be a Canadian resident (unless the outfitter could not find anyone qualified after advertising throughout Canada, then he could start the "green slip" procedure.
Here in the Northwest Territories (pure wilderness)a search costs $150,000 before the first plane is airborne, and the government does not want to foot too many searches. I can agree with this, and am frustrated when so-called outfitters lose a client and bring the publicity upon our industry. After 30 years of guiding, it's my opinion that at least 70% of my clients could easily become lost (and we have no trees!).

What rules are in force that prevent me from guiding in Alaska or Wyoming, for instance? .........they also have rules on foreignors.

Any more?

~Arctic~

And I agree with Stubblejumper.I don't think that Blue quite understands the native issue up here!
Dave

I understand that native people's ancestors at one time owned and had complete control of the land and the creatures on it, and that the europeans came and stole the land for their own, and made their own laws, and filled the countryside with highways and took away the native life.

Not much different than down here.

today, if that would be attempted there would be world wars of untold dimension and mysery.

Once again, I am not arguing that people should not have jobs, etc. What I am arguing is the logic. A person may go into that same wilderness all that person wants without a guide. A person may not shoot an animal there without a guide. So, if there is an argument that it costs 150,000 to get a plane up in the air because a person doesn't have a guide for hunting, why isn't there that same argument if the person is just up there takeing pictures or walking around.

Blue

A canadian can legally go to alaska and take all the pictures of brown bears that he pleases but he can't hunt brown bear without a guide.

What absolute drivel, the Europeans did not "steal" diddlysquat! If, you want to promote the racist lies of the Aboriginal "rights" agenda, do it on the "politics" forum and do not attempt to vilify Canadians and our SOVEREIGN NATION by commenting on our laws, which you do NOT understand, by mixing up trendy left-lib rhetoric with facts.



I would add, check to see what the "Solutrean Culture" was, what they did and where they originated. Also, my historically challenged expert on MY nation's development, I suggest you examine the origins and the destruction of "Huronia".



Finally, Canada is NOT the U.S. and we choose to do things here in our own way; if, you don't like it, simple, don't hunt here! I was born here and I am a "native" Canadian, just as much as any aboriginal Canadian is, we do not have "native Americans" here, this is Canada.

My My My. What in fact happened, in Canada as well as the United States, is that native peoples were forced to agree to deals not only under threat of violence, but also under much more subtle issues such as starvation, representation in government, etc. It was no different than here in the United States.

I am not attempting to villify Canadian Laws. I believe you have free speech in Canada, and I believe many Canadians excercise that right by speaking out against Canadian Laws every day. And I certainly support and rejoice in your right to speak out against the way the United States does things.

I think I do understand your laws. You have a requirement for guides so that Canada earns money from those who would want to come up and use Her natural resources. What is not to understand about that. Doesn't mean I have to like it anyomre than I like my own state's natural resource laws.

I do not see the word "moderator" after anyones name here, and I may choose whatever forum I so desire to make my comments known. You can attack me personally all you want. But I am here to intelligently discuss an issue, and not to personally attack anyone.

Blue

You stated that we Canadians wanted to take advantage of all that is good in the US, but, were not willing to allow Americans to take advantage of what is good here, I found that comment quite offensive, it is bullshit.

You did not respond to my points concerning history, but simply repeated the same old propaganda about the poor, downtrodden Indian; the point is, the horrors of the "Indian Wars", "The Trail of Tears", "Little Wolf and Dull Knife" and the tragedy involving that idiot, Custer, DID NOT HAPPEN here.

In any event, this is a pointless exercise and one for which I have no further patience. We have a very different concept of how to regulate our natural resources here and that is that. I do not go about telling Americans that I should be allowed to hunt, fish or do anything else in the US, it is not my country. You should realize that you should not try to lecture us on our methods of regulating access to our resources.

I might also add, that it is exactly this sort of "continentalist" attitude that makes Canadians less favourable toward non-resident hunting. This is happening and it is going to get worse. I frequently hear people saying that only subsistence hunting should be allowed and no non-resident trophy hunting should take place.

The issue concerning backcountry access is another potential problem; many unemployed woodsworkers here feel that if the US does not want to buy Canadian lumber without a tariff, then we should begin charging "access licence" fees for hikers, campers and anglers. The movement to require paid guides for mountaineering of any sort is also growing apace; this is something I fully expect to see happen.

The point of all of this palaver is that while the present system may not be in accord withh your cultural mores, it is with those of most people here; if changed, it will not get easier, it will get even more bureaucratic.....a word to the wise???

"given concessions in order to avoid indian wars" is the same as forcing deals under threats of violence. Custer did not happen there but it very well could have happened there. Nor does it matter. Again, in a previous post, I stated that I do not feel the need to worry about what people did previously for I had no control over those people. Only to look at what happened and make amends for any wrongdoing.

I am not trying to rule your country. I am stating that I do not like it when governments force people to have a guide to hunt. I don't care if it is in Canada, or Wyoming, or Minnesota, Alaska,or South Africa. I don't believe Alaska should restrict Canadian People from hunting without a guide! And I have stated a logical reason why I feel that way. My reason I feel that way is because I believe it to be nothing more than a way to enhance revenue. I believe that becasue the standard is not based on all factors involved with usage of the land, but rather only on the taking of an animal.

You have stated that many people there do not like the U.S. trying to buy Canadian lumber without a tariff. The difference between you and I is that:

1. I applaud your desire to make comments about things you do not like about the U.S.
2. I do not attack you personally when you do so, but rather discuss the issue itself.

And what I would say about that issue is that it has been proven time and time again in this world that tariffs are a bad thing becaue all they do is cause more tariffs and more tariffs and more tariffs, thereby stifling free trade.

[quote
I am not trying to rule your country. I am stating that I do not like it when governments force people to have a guide to hunt. I don't care if it is in Canada, or Wyoming, or Minnesota, Alaska,or South Africa. I don't believe Alaska should restrict Canadian People from hunting without a guide! And I have stated a logical reason why I feel that way. My reason I feel that way is because I believe it to be nothing more than a way to enhance revenue. I believe that becasue the standard is not based on all factors involved with usage of the land, but rather only on the taking of an animal.

---

There is one point I made earlier tat you have ignored, and it is probably the most important aspect of it.

If we let Americans come to hunt here without a guide, EVERYONE would come, and within a few years there would be no animals and the wild areas of Canada would be ruined.

Imagine nywhere in the USA that has oodles of non residents coming to hunt there...the experience is greatly diminished.

If you want to hunt here, great. Move here and contribute to our system and enhancement. After 6 months residence in BC you can hunt here.

Or, hire a guide.

I will be glad to address your issue.

I have no problem with governments limiting the number of licenses in order to protect their game herds. If B.C. (or any goverment) wants to limit the number of nonresidents (or residents for that matter)for that reason I see nothing wrong with it because that seems like a logical and narrowly tailored reason for doing so.

As far as contrbuting to enhancement, I think people do that by paying the government a license fee.

Blue---I am not attacking you, I simply did not care for the comment you made in your post. I also think that your knowledge of history and interpretation thereof is not adequate to your main point; there was no forcing of the Aboriginal peoples here. In fact, when the American Iroquois attacked the peaceful and very prosperous settlements of "Huronia", it was "Europeans" who drove them off, saving many, but not all, Huron lives.

We actually have Aboriginal government(s) here and they live far better than most "white" people. We have, at present, 978,000 Aboriginals and more than 11,000,000,000 dollars are spent on them annually. The stories of poverty and so forth are media flack, nobody in Canada is/has to live in want or degradation, period. In fact, I wish I was an Indian, they get goodies that I never will, but, my taxes, not theirs, help pay for said benefits.

I am strongly in favour of very high, rigid tariff walls, extremely strict environmental regulations and an ultra-nationalistic approach to world affairs, so, we differ. I believe that Gatehouse is right, an open border policy with respect to hunting, etc. would destroy what we have and I do not want that.

I used to work for the Forest Service in Stubbie's province, I have witnessed, first-hand, the slaughter of many game animals by Indians simply because they had the "right" to do so under some stupid court decision. If, they have "rights" to hunting, fishing and other resources that I do not have, then they should have to employ Neolithic technology to exercise those "rights".

I get just a bit pissed at this idea that some Indian can use a scoped rifle to kill a pregnant Moose and then take the hind quarters, leaving the rest to rot, and sell these in Slave Lake, AB. to finance his next drunken binge, I have seen this happen. I have also witnessed this type of thing here in B.C. and I have no sympathy for Indians, period.

So, come to B.C., hire a guide and shoot a really BIG Ram, then, both Gate and I will be jealous!

As Mr Gatehouse so aptly put it,Everyone would come here.It
has happened with the salmon fishing and would happen with big game hunting.Its virtually nonexistant along the American west coast so we are overwhelmed with American fisherman along our coast from early June until mid September.Theres a real push on to require Non residents to hire guides to fish the tidal waters as well.
Dave

I served as the "junior" keeper on Ballenas Is. in the late '80s and I saw, first hand, the result of over-fishing by people with luxury yachts and/or scuba gear. I am totally in favour of an absolute ban on any non-guided non-resident fishing and hunting, anywhere in the province; there should be very strict quotas and mandatory licences.

I also support mandatory guides for backcountry explorations, ski-mountaineering, climbing, and snow-boarding. I am tired of paying taxes for the rescue of those who are not willing to pay for their safety, by hiring a guide.

Stubble



I almost cannot understand that. WE here in Minnesota do not have a rule that states a nonresident must have a guide, and yet we now have the largest population of whitetails that the state has ever had, to the point where last year in most zones one was allowed to have two licenses, which has never ever happened in my lifetime before. And our nonresident license is only $150.00. And every year some pretty big deer are taken here. Last year over 225000 deer were taken here by over 450000 hunters., and there are still too many deer.



So, with all due respect, I just don't see how too many hunters ruined the deer herd in Saskatchewan. I don't know what type of management plan you have in place there, and so I would not commment on what happened, but most of the time if the money spent by the hunters is put back into the natural resource the natural resource thrives.



Kutenay



Okay. We just don't agree on certain things. I will agree though that I am not totally up on my native history, such as that of the Huron tribes, although I am now reading a rather short book on the various tribes here in the U. S. Next time I am up in Canada, which is a few times a year, I will have to pick up a book on earl tribal history to see what I can learn. Suffice it to say, I am not too big on "big government". Governments are artificial. People are real.



Blue

Gatehouse



Which is why, in most states and provinces, there is a tremendous difference in cost between the resident license and the nonresident license!!!



Stubble



Well, again, I don't know the exact details. But I do know that Minnesota has almost 500,000 people who hunt deer every year here, and wisconsin has even more people than that who hunt deer next door to us. That is one hell of a lot of hunters. And yet, out deer populations continue to grow and grow to the point where in many areas two deer can be taken. So there has to be some other explanation.



Blue

I am strongly opposed to "big" government as well,but, effective regulation of human behaviour in a socially beneficial fashion is the only "raison'd'etre" for the existance of "good" government, IMO. Among the very few forms of regulation of the individual by government that I consider "good" are environmental statutes, such as "The Wildlife Act".

I am not such a "Rousseauian" idealist as your comments lead me to believe you to be; I have seen the effect of the division by race of Canadians into groups that compete for our very vulnerable wildlife resource; I have no desire to see this situation intensified by allowing foreigners to participate. While governments may be "artificial", they are human constructs and thus reflect, albeit imperfectly, our priorities and values; most Canadians have very different attitudes about many things than Americans do, hence, the laws you object to.

What "Stubbie" says is true and there are quite a number of other situations that I can cite of unregulated harvesting of Canadian wildlife by foreigners that would demonstrate his/my/Gate's point. Suffice it to say that, although we may be less overt in expressing it, Canadians are every bit as proud, nationalistic and loyal to our nation as you Americans are to yours. The greatest expression of this pride, felt profoundly by members of founding, pioneer families such as I am and by naturalized Canadian citizens, is our absolute determination to manage our resources our own way.

Kutenay

I don't think I ever said that Canada should not manage its resources its own way. Certainly, if Canada's game populations are down, then Canada should do whatever it takes to get those game populations to where Canada wants them to be.

We are talking about a very very fine line here. Maybe just maybe I might agree with you that in a given year if there were no such thing as mandatory guides some animals would be wasted by slobs from America and other places. But wasted isn't the same word as killed, and the game would be killed whether a guide was there or not.

You certainly should be proud of your beautiful homeland. Nobody said different. I think that becuase I used Canada as an example you took it that I was picking on Canada. Once again, I don't believe that anywhere, including my own state or country, should require guides.

As far as my philosphy, I don't know that I am so much with Mr. Rosseau. Probably lean more to Mr. Locke. I see man in the natural world without boundaries and without artificial rules and regulations, but with just enough regulation to keep the peace.

Blue

Hello;
The next thing you guys will be ripping your hair out about the mad cow border closure and soft wood lumber penalties. Like somebody said, we are a sovereign country and have our own way of doing things, but that goes both ways. How many American states would welcome a Canadian who wanted to set up a guiding operation down there? I guess either party could always file a complaint under NAFTA about unfair restraint of Trade. Then, years and millions of dollars later, we would have a decision, unless of course the Americans lost. Then they would start the whole process over.
Grizz

Cariboo-For the last few years I have not been able to hunt deer in the area of saskatchewan where I grew up because I am now an alberta resident.However after much lobbying by myself and others and a reduction in saskatchewan resident hunters in the area I am allowed to hunt in this zone again this fall.I am really looking forward to hunting deer with my 72 year old father in my home area again as we did for many years in the past.