Thats good new Stubblejumper! My dad gave up big game hunting many years ago due to what he called 'Too many idiots" runing around. I really think he just decided one day that he had killed enough animals for one lifetime. He turns 77 in July, and is as stubborn as ever, so I really don't think we will ever get a chance to go out hunting deer together again. He does however still shoot a mean round of clays using his old Simpson Sears (High Standard) skeet gun so all maybe I can talk him to go out after birds one more time.

Blue, Our habitat and weather conditions do not support high densities and the herd numbers are dictated by these conditions. The entire whitetail deer population of alberta is just over 100,000 animals in an area almost the size of the entire northern midwest US. 2 or 3 counties in MN or Wis would hold more deer. Your yearly MN deer harvest is about 5 times our entire deer population. We do have big deer though and the problem is everyone from everywhere wants one. There aint enough to go around. As far as grizzly, sheep, goats etc., well, basically they are a commodity and bring what ever the market will bear.

As far as rules in different countries, well I'm sure they all have their reasons for doing things the way they do just like the US and Canada do. The situation in MN dosen't apply here any more than it does in Mexico, Montana or Mongolia.

I wont even get into the native issues up here, except to say that the liberal media has spun it way out of proportion and has the urban population who never sees what actually goes on believing natives are hard done buy, much like Disney and other media has the urban liberal dogooders thinking we hunters are nothing more than a bunch of bloodthirsty alcoholic murderers packing weapons to blow away every living thing and then we go home, kick the dog and beat the wife. it's really sad in this day and age of information that we still don't get unbiased reporting and media spin. Social engineering is rampant. There are two sides to every story. Canada is about the only nation that has tried to compensate for past wrongs. I don't agree with this. History is history. Why cant i get my ancestors land in Ireland back that was stolen and many of my ancestors killed and abused. All through history one group has conquered another and never has there been compensation. It is still happening in the world today and could very well happen to us sometime as the world evolves. To listen to the media, one would think that the natives were the only people in history that were hard done by. Go to your library and read a couple of world history books. I don't feel bad about the perceived native situation at all.

Blue,

Just be happy that you only have to hire one guide instead of two, to go out in Canada's wilderness.
The second guide would be for the night shift so the client doesen't get hurt or lost when he gets up at night to take a leak.

Blue, I am not sudjesting this about you. Many foriegn hunters are very capable and could be guides anywhere themselves, but just as many are VERY incapable.
I earn a living in this industry and I can tell you some very funny stories or some very scary stories about what goes on with some clients.
I could think of a least a hundred reasons why our system needs to be the way it is. I will give you a couple:

- With an open system where you, Blue, could come here and purchase a tag and go hunt on your own. What is stopping you from coming back next year to the same place with a few clients of your own. You could have a little "under the table" Outfitting of your own on the side.
We call this "bandit outfitting"

- A non-resident goes out hunting and kills a bull moose. Sees a bigger one. Shoots it and sees even a bigger one. Some one finds these moose left to rot. After some invetigation they know who was hunting the area and who the culprit is but the poacher lives in anouther country or even province. Our little government and small population can not aford to prosecute this a$$ hole. And the damage has been done. It is costly and difficult to prosecute someone out side the country. If this happens to many times, then there is nothing for you or I to hunt.

- There are areas here in the Yukon that have unique weather patterns to certain areas. Most Yukon residents are not even aware of them. NWT, B.C, and Alaska also have the same thing. Example, some places go from summer to full blown winter(a 30 degree differential)in a couple of days. Or a river that will rise 30 feet over night because there was a big rain 40 miles away. You get the picture.


- Then there is the guys who don't know shit from fat meat. You know what I am talking about. We have all met them.

Our wildlife is a renewable resourse just like the vegetables in your garden. If it is not managed carefully, it can be lost. Then what do we got? We could not pay you to come here. To ensure the future and quality of our hunting for residents and non-residents alike, it only makes sense we want to look after what we have.

All the boys (except that monkey spanker guy) gave you pretty good information. If you desire to do some hunting on your own here, then come live here a while. You will not regret it.

Daryl

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Yukoner, well done, good points.

Yukoner

I do not see the connections in what you have said.

1. If I came up there and hunted on my own, I do not see how that would cause me to start a guiding service up there.
Obviously, anyone who guides should have some sort of license to guide if they want to guide, and I certainly do not want to be a guide.

2. As far as some idiot shooting more than what his license calls for, that person should have his balls cut off in my opinion. NO need to require a guide.

3. And again, as far as weather changes, etc. My point there has always been that if I can go to the same areas without a guide when I am not hunting, then what difference does the guide make. In other words, its legal for me to be on that river that rises 30 feet without a guide if I am not hunting or fishing, but illegal if I am????

4. Please do not misunderstand me. I think you should look over what you have and protect it and utilize it. And there should be guides available if people want to use them.
What pisses me off is that the way things are going, only those people who are very wealthy anymore are going to be able to hunt, and I just don't see that as fair, when the animals are wild and belong to all. If you need to keep the number of hunters down it can be done by limiting the number of licenses rather than having a system where it costs $25000 to be able to take a sheep or a moose.

Blue

I understand your point about being allowed to travel in Canadian wilderness areas without a guide when hiking, but, not hunting. However, an increasing number of Canadians want to see this practice ended, I certainly do. The fact is that an opportunity exists to charge people from other parts of the world to experience Canada wilderness.This would be of considerable economic benefit to many communities devastated by the decline in our resource industries, so, why not do it?

Your point about ownership of wild animals is not valid, the resource belongs to the Crown in right of the people of Canada. Why should we allow a foreigner to come here and have the same access to our very rare and vulnerable resources as we do? If, a Stone's Sheep hunt costs $25,000, then that is what the market will bear and so that is what it is worth. Frankly, if I were Premier of B.C., there would be a $10,000 government trophy fee charged on every wild sheep shot by foreign hunters; the money would NOT go to the pampered Indians, it would go into wildlife management.

The fact is, in a world of more than 6,000,000,000 people with an increasing population, hunting for sport is an increasingly rare luxury that will continue to increase in cost. We Canadians have been far too generous with our resources and it is time we stopped doing this. In any event, the situation is rapidly changing and the days of non-resident hunting are, as I've said, nearly over. The nest leftist government here in B.C. will almost certainly bring that about, sad but true.

I apologize. When I say that the animals belong to all, I wasn't considering that I have to stay in touch with reality here. As you know, I am not much of a believer in borders or governments, believing instead that such things are artificial and that man should live in a natural world where such foolish things should not exist. But now that you mention it, maybe we americans too have been far too generous with our things as well, and should put a stop to it.



Blue

I don't know why we as Canadians have to be so shy about the value of our natural resources. Canada has some of the few places left in the world where people can have the opportunity to hunt, fish, camp, canoe...etc...in the "way it used to be". Why the hell our government doesn't charge fair market price for these opportunities (for alien non-residents) is absurd. If provincial resource managers want to protect these natural resources then extremely high fees would be charged to all alien non-resident recreationists. This money should not enter the general revenue stream but should be similar to the American model which directs the monies back into the MNR. These high fees would be placed on both consumptive and non-consumptive forms of nature based recreations.

If a person thinks "rogue" or "bandit" outfitting isn't a concern in parts of Canada they are very much uniformed. This is an increasing concern in hunting, fishing, canoeing, and back-country hiking throughout many areas of Canada. Rogue outfitters (including outfitters from various countries) have begun to erode the ability of Canadian citizens to access Canadian natural resources or negatively impact the resource.

Blue, I know you say that we Canadians have privilege of coming to the US and hunting game species such as Pheasant or Desert Sheep without being forced to hire a guide. However, unlike Canada, very few opportunities ACTUALLY exist in many US States (especially in areas holding desirable game) because most of the hunting occurs on private property and as such requires payment of trespass fees. This is evidenced in the fact of the dramatic increase of rogue outfitters in Canada or recent movements by states like North Dakota to limit non-residents.

And the more that I or many other Canadians hear non-residents attempting to lay claim to Canadian natural resources the more we force government to either close opportunities or demand a fee (hunting, fishing, camping, canoeing) which reflects more accurately reflects the market value of these opportunities.

Please don�t interpret this as anti-American, it�s pro-capitalism and pro-wildlife/ecosystem.

Well, then let me put it this way. It would be far less distasteful to me for a Provincial Government to charge $10,000 for a Stone Sheep permit than for that same government to force me to hire a guide..

I'll stay at home.

I quess it is gloating. I wasn't meaning to, just trying to make a point.

I missed out on the Bison hunt this winter. I was taking a saddlemakers coarse down in Alberta this winter. I had to spend 6 months down there. I am not sure if I will be doing this years bison hunt or not. I hope to draw my own tag, though. I would be into going to the NWT this winter if it is still allowable.

How about you John? How have you been keep'n? When are you coming back up north to hunt again? The next couple of years should be good for some big Rams!

Daryl

Daryl,

Just yanking your chain a little. You made some valid points in your posts though for sure.

I just can't justify those "big ram" prices when I can chase a pair of cow elephants and plains game in Zim for the same cost. Plus, I don't want to infect myself with sheep fever . . . as you point out, it's an expensive sickness for non-residents .
What are you thinking about going after in the NWT? Are you thinking about hunting the MacKenzie Bison Refuge herd or the roamers in the "bison mgmt zone" outside WBNP as we discussed last year? I am moving to Egypt to work this year but will likely be back for the entire month of January so either option is a possibility for me. I have already spoken with Jerome Knap about the the possibility of a MacKenzie hunt. Hope you draw your tag in the YT though. The odds can't be too bad . . . hell, hardly anyone lives there so really how many people could be putting in for the hunts!?!?!?!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

I can see the need for exclusive territories in some areas of the country. An outfitter has a big expense with setting up a quality operation providing shelter, transportation, expertise in the way of guides etc. and must have a way to protect the potenial he will be able to survive as a viable business and make a return on the investment. What I do object to is the granting of large areas to one outfitter in southern Sask esp for upland bird and migratory waterfowl. There are many cases where non Canadian residents have snapped up huge areas and come here, get the gravey and go home taking the money with them. There investment is minimal often consisting of using motels and restruants. No tents, cabins etc. Even the vehicles are not licensed locally. Some even bring gas with them to avoid the higher Canadian price.
Meanwhile a tax paying resident can not make a few bucks taking out a few hunters without exposing himself to charges under the game laws.