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Gabe How are ya?! What excellent advice for those who have never been shot at or hit. Happy New Year Rocky K. (Thor/Omega Group) | |||
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I'm not Gabe, I just thought he made some valid points. Never owned a glock in my life but I have more than one mag or speedloaders for the things I own. Edited original post so people don't get confused as to who is who. | |||
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Gabe (whoever he is) makes some interesting points, mainly that the initiative is almost always with the perp. Having said that, what kind of force on force drills does he use to demonstrate/teach this? I believe that there is ALWAYS a place for accurate shooting. The ability to put a bullet through the head of someone peering from behind a baracade or from behind a hostage being examples. I am not convinced that the type of stages shot in local IPSC matches are examples of defensive shooting techniques. Probably more like Gabe's example of walking into a Crips 'hood wearing a KKK outfit! In that case you might well shoot 60 rounds of ammo while running between baracades! If so, then why does he have a Glock with 2 spare mags? In Florida that might be difficult in the summer. I find that the gun I carry most ofter is in fact a snub nose 357 mag, mainly for it's small size and concealability. I think he does concede that you have to put up with what you bring! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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IME some of what he says is true, some isn't | |||
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As I read it I see him saying "marksmanship is important, but so is being able to lower your standards if need be so as not to get shot yourself." I didn't read it as him saying marksmanship doesn't matter. Here's a review of one of the classes he has taught. | |||
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My first defensive pistol class (in the nineties) was with the original Front Sight team: Chuck Taylor, Nash Piazza and Gabe Suarez were my instructors. The course was near Bakersfield California, long before Las Vegas was being put together. At that time Gabe was still L.A. SWAT if I remember correctly. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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So, to repeat, can someone explain what kind of drills Gabe or Front Site uses to teach the loss of initiative. It seems to me that just "waiting for the beep" in IDPA or IPSC doesn't cut it. After all you are expecting the signal. Note that I'm not being critical here, just trying to learn. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Peter, Not exactly easy to explain in a post, but it doesn't much resemble IDPA or IPSC. You could always look at his video: http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1358 _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Thanks Wink. I read the blurb on the video. Off hand, I have absolutely no intention of clearing my house unless I have to! I will stay in my room and call the cops. I am always interested in realistic scenarios that I can practice myself without having to pay and enter some match somewhere. I have a timer which is very useful. I have some serious reservations about the "double tap" scenario when faced with multiple targets. Just my 2 cents! Thanks for the feedback. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Peter, I also took a course at Gunsite with Louis Awerbuck as instructor. My exposure to Chuck Taylor, Gabe Suarez and Louis Awerbuck led me to believe that none of them have any dogmas when it comes to survival. I suggest you obtain some of their books, especially Awerbuck's and Suarez' books, and read what they say about tactical reality if you can't attend one of their courses. By the way, a week at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch is great fun and I recommend it to everyone. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Wink - Plastered in Paris...thats funny ! Last time I was in Paris I got plastered too! 1974 on my way to Mozambique. Louis and I were in the same class at Gunsite in 1980 and I used to give him fits when I'd say something in Afrikaans just when he was trying to focus on a shot..! Taylor is still a close friend and we communicate weekly. Never met Gabe but several mutual friends have a high regard for him and thats good enough for me. Happy New Year all. Rocky K. T/O Group | |||
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Flyinrock, you want to keep that Afrikaans stuff off the firing line, Louis is kinda high strung without any encouragement. I talked to Chuck about a year ago when he did some training in Versailles for the French police. He gets around. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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The only times I have needed a hand gun for real neighther my STI 40 nor my browning HigH power would have worked. Thank Goodness I was carrying my old S&W M58 in .41 mag. The hyaena that was standing on my bed is now a rug mount in the lounge ant the bastard with the AK who put a bullet through my right shoulder (causing me to drop my rifle) is a pile of stones that I stop to piss on every time I go to Sengwa research. | |||
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Ganyana, How did you ever survive carrying a BRT (Big Round Thing) instead of a state of the art semi auto?  I qualify with my 629 Mountain Gun on the off duty gun course every year for old time sake. It's also fun to hand it to someone who wasn't a cop in the 80's along with a speedloader and watch them try to figure out how to get it up and running.  I believe that the Force on Force training Suarez runs is using role players and Simmunition (paint ball type training rounds fired from a real gun). It's great at normal gunfight distances and you can learn a lot from watching how people react to stress from a threat that leaves a mark (and a bruise). | |||
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Lets divide the world into two groups: good guys and bad guys. Bad guys, like predators generally, don't really want to give the prey an even break. This isn't a game for them, its business. As Suarez says, they are trying to catch the good guy(s) in an ambush. Good guys come in two kinds: civilian and other. I am no longer one of the "other." Civilians may or may not be armed. In states with right to carry laws, bad guys can't ever be really sure, "does he or doesn't he." However, smart bad guys don't intentionally screw with armed civilians-three things can happen: the civilian may get hurt/killed, they may get killed, or they might get shot too (and showing up at the hospital shot means jail time.) They stand to lose 66% of the time and that isn't good for business. Suarez makes a great point that is easy to overlook in his second paragraph: "But I would ask if you are so tuned and alert, you can probably avoid all those fights anyway which would make the carry of ANY weapon unnecessary." Avoidance is a great way for civilians to keep their hide in one piece. Don't go places where you increase your exposure. Don't look like a victim (a putz) when you are in neutral territory. Be purposeful and don't look lost. Don't wear gold Rolex watches or flash lots of money. There is nothing you need at the convenience store at 10:50pm. Don't look for a fight if you are on the periphery of a problem. Always have a plan. Not being in the kill zone is a great place to start, and running is a first class option if you screw up. If you can't run away, then use the adrenalin rush that comes from fear to focus on your survival, ie, flight or fight. Suarez is absolutely right, when you are in the "kill zone," move! Keep as much distance between you and your foes as you can, and minimize your target size. Most bad guys are not trained shots, and a moving target is even harder to hit. If you are armed, now is the time to let them know it. A round in the air lets them know that this "lamb" has teeth. A bullet whizzing by one's ear tends to awaken one's instinct for survival. They have the option to disengage, which has many upsides and few downsides for them. If they leave, you win. If you are out of options, remember that you are a large, mean, armed, angry SOB too, who intends to survive this confrontation. It's business for them, its life or death for you. Don't talk-move and fight with all the weapons you have at your disposal starting with the big brain you are blessed with. Remember the old aphorism, no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. After that it is good training and instinct. I generally shoot well enough and try to work in some pistol time; however, one of the reasons that I frequent our range during the week, is that people become alarmed at "fast draw" shooting, rolling around on the ground shooting, shooting with the "off" hand from odd positions, and loading and clearing the weapon with one hand (this requires putting the pistol where one doesn't always put a pistol!) But always remember, for civilians the goal is to survive, nothing more. Kudude PS: I have had occasion to "clear" my house (and discussion of it still induces gales of laughter from my wife and stepson) and to call the police and have them clear it. Barricade yourself, and CALL THE POLICE! k-d | |||
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Kudude, I am sure you know more tham me, but this is not what I would do. If the assailant has a gun and I feel that my life is in jeopardy I will not shoot a "round in the air". It will be a round in the middle of his chest. In Florida this would be justified. Perhaps not in other states. A round in the air could just give him time to put a round in you, at the distances typically experienced. Is there any reason why you advocate the "round in the air"? Incidentally, Suarez does talk about the inability of most folks to walk around in "condition yellow" all the time! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I think most people when faced with a situation described above would simply faint, after they peed, but perhaps simultaneously. Well presented post and good, thoughtful responses. I hope I never need my CZ 75. | |||
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Kdude makes meny excellent points, as a matter of fact his is one of the best postings i have read concerning the real world reality of a life threatining and or altering incounter with a criminal. His best point being keeping ones self and love ones out of harms way in the first place. I live in NW Indiana quite close to Chicago (or is that spelled Sh!tcago?). As we enjoy gas that is tipicly .20 to .40c a gallon cheaper here than Chicago we get thousands of people from there buying gas. The areas of Chicago that are closest to where I live are for lack of a more accurate discription, utter s!hit pits of human waists of space, so consiquently there is the potential for a life threatening situatiuon developing at one of the meny gas stations by my home. As a result i do not allow the wife to gas up her car anymore at these stations, and I personaly do not do so unarmed or at all after sunset. There have been just enough car jackings for me to have to adopt this statagy. We now get our gas in areas that do not border IL/IN. I began using my IN CC permit after a rahter sobering experince. Last year from April till November I worked six and seven days a week without exception. On one of my few days off i was taking my 5yr old son fishing to one of our favorite spots in IN, located in a town not known for any type of violent crime and is considered a "good neighboorhood" in which to rais your family. As I was getting my sons and mine gear out of the truck, I noticed several bullet holes in the "do not park on this side of lot" sighn. I was shaking my head in disgust when a IN DOC cop pulled up and started talking to me. I was comenting on the perforated sign when he said that aint crap, did you here what happened here last week? I said I work 60-70hrs/week I barely get time to sleep. He proceeded to tell me some drug types from eithor Gary or Chicago had brought 4 people here just after dark that were bound and gaged, took them into the lake area, knelt them down and shot all of them in the head. One survived and after the killers left, mannaged to find help at a local store. After that if at all possable anywhere I go, especially with my family in tow, I bring my 3"XD40 with the 12 round clip W/1 in the chamber. I can not tell you how meny times I have been there fishing till well after dark if the fish were and often are biting. I also try to keep as situationaly awere of what is going on around me as is possible. I have also learned to be on higher alert so to speek when I am in what one would consider the "danger zone" or zones when out. Like parking lots, gas stations, and make a point never to park near vans or in remote hard to view areas of prking lots. I no longer drink to excess when I am out with the family and rarely did in the past. Simply put I do not go into Chicago or other places near high crime areas all that often with my family and when I do I stay on high alert 100% of the time while there. We also try only to go to highly sicure places like Sox park or navy peir or places with a strong highly visable police presense that criminals tend to avoid like the plaque. I also have always also beleived that if left with no choice and force is nessasary in a confrontation, I will always atempt to inflict harm in such a mannor as to eliminate the risk to my self as compleatly and quickly as possible. Even more sevearly so if any member of my family is present. Such as if it is a hand to hand situation, first taking out an assilents eyes has always been top on my list above say a punch to the face. But I agree if you can flee and call 911 or 999 it would be the best option considering you may have little to worry from the law (at least here in Indiana) if you use deadly force justifiably so, but you could be finacially destroied in the fallow up civil law suit. I also make a point to make eye contact with and stare down anyone I feel may be sizing me up like a lion does a zebra and use my bodies demeiner to convay the message of one of aggresive in nature not that of a scared victim in the making. The places I go with out my XD40 are getting fewer in number all the time especially since the shooting at that store in the mall in Tinley Park were a botched robbery ended in four people being shot and killed. | |||
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If only it was that easy! Who that hell knows how a gun fight will end up, its a crap shoot at best..All you can do is your best..I have seen men that proved themselves in a gunfight on several ocassion turn to shit in another gun fight. Just too many varibles involved. I know training is important, but if you go up against a true killer then your in a world of shit no matter how good you may think you are because your the good guy, you think like a good guy and you will die like a good guy. I been around too long!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I agree with Atkinson. I dont care how much you train if you dont have the mental makeup you wont learn it. Some guys can do it and most just cant. As to weapons. I dont live in a battle zone and feel perfectly well armed with a 5 shot revolver. Its not what i usually carry but even when i have a 1911 i dont carry extra mags. Im a civilian and wear civilian clothes and i just am not going to drag around a gun and two or three mags or a spare gun. If i lived in Beruit or south africa i might ajust my attitude but i dont. You can talk that crap about preparing for a fight and i will never argue that training isnt a good thing but you will never know how your will react in the real thing unless youve been there and those are the people i listen to. What gun your carrying is a very minor point in the big picture. Having the metal makeup to handle the extream stress of the cituation without a depends is whats real important and no teacher can teach that.
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Smale, Spot on, welcome to the REAL world... I'm retired now to my hunting business but I packed a gun for 20 plus years in DEA and a few more running a Drug Task Force. I learned early on that packing two guns and several clips would make my pants fall off. I carried a .45 or HiPower in the car, and a 5 shot Smith airweight stuck in my pants with a rubber band around the grip so it didn't slip out of my waistband, amazed me how well that works. You must develope a mind set of I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6, and oh how the higher echolon hates to hear that statement, it gives them the willys!! but when your gone you will be missed for about a day or two then life goes on for them..your wife and kids are just minor memory to the brass! end of story. Take care and get er done. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray I guided up in the Id,MT,WY area for years when I wasn't busy flying around the world getting into/out of trouble. Your point of "Good Guy" is well taken and the vast majority of people who think of using a gun for defense are simply not equipped mentally or emotionaly to kill someone. Besides 10 years USMC, several years as a LEO, and a number of years working in dark places, I thought I was well equipped and qualified. Truth is, I was/AM but it wasn't until I got shot several times that I knew without reservation or hesitation, I'll shoot to kill or slice and dice...whatever it takes. I feel fairly confident my wife will do likewise if faced with a hostile intruder and she is quite good with her 1911's. Have spent time with her on the range and in doing house drills so she can take care of business if I'm away. No doubt she'd do well on the competition circuit if she chose but she takes it more serious than that! I have a number of retired friends in the northern ID area who I shot with over the years who are distinguished shooters. In fact, I suggested we form a team of distinguished shooters and name it "The Trigger Jerks". Best Regards Rocky | |||
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I had not shot a pistol for about perhaps 10 or 15 years when I read your thread, so I went out and shot my Browning, my Colt and my S&W Combat Magnum...Shot much better than I thought I would, guess its like riding a bike, once you learn you don't forget, welllll almost!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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