Folks,

I wanted to get a sense for the size of the double rifle market if someone came out with a high quality double rifle, say in 470NE, for under $5,000 (maybe even less). It wouldn't have fancy scrolling or anything, probably be stainless, all parts machined (no hand welding barrels together or casting) and carry some sort of very hard and stable wood for its stock.

I spoke with some PH's I know and they said there would be a great market for this, especially among the PH community in Africa and the guides in North America in brown bear country.

Comments?

Hell I'd buy one. I've never known High quility and under 5000 went into the same phrase.

I think the market would be wide open.

Butch Searcy does well and he is twice the price, but his guns shoot and are very tough, thats the important part.

Honestly I think it is highly doubtful you could build a DR for 5K.

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
Honestly I think it is highly doubtful you could build a DR for 5K.

On the contrary, one can buy a damn nice Chapuis 9,3x74R for $3900 USD RETAIL. Now, does anyone really believe that there is a production cost justification for the extra $5500 that people pay for the .470? Of course, there isn't as the price is simply a reflection of perceived "willingness to pay". The same is true of custom bolt guns. I was on a custom gun builders site the other day and got a bit of a chuckle from the pricing of some guns he had in stock. Two new and essentially identical rifles with the exception of calibre. One was a 7mm and the other a .375 or maybe a .458 lott. Anyway, the latter was priced at a good $1500 more than the 7mm. Again, does anyone believe that a significant production cost difference exists here?

My point is that there is DEFINITELY room for a sub $5000 big bore double rifle. Not to say that they ever will, but anyone who thinks Ruger couldn't produce something like this, at this price (and still make a buck) is out to lunch.

JMHO,

John

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
To start you cannot just machine the barrels because they need to be regulated.

As an aside, this has been done and apparently with success! I believe the maker was an eccentric European who NEVER sold his guns until very recently. Hopefully someone will post the site selling his interesting creations....but, if I recall correctly, YOU'D BETTER INCREASE THE LIMIT ON THE AMERICAN EXPRESS !

Best,

John

i would be very interesting... my one desire is that either there is a deduct for no stock or that I can order it longer than normal..

make it SIMPLE
one caliber -- 470 NE
one sights -- NECG front dovetail and 1 standing, 1 folding rear
kreighoff type user adjustable regulation..

in fact, if you are withing a FOOT at 50 yards, leaving the factory, i'll do the rest, if that's a cost deduct

jeffe

JTG,

His name is Bouchet and I have seen his DR's anywhere from 75,000 to 200K.

http://doublegunhq.com/searchFrame.htm

I will be happy if you are right I just don't see it happening.

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
Honestly I think it is highly doubtful you could build a DR for 5K.

Actually, it's already been done. Or close to it. A new Merkel 470 only costs about $5K-US ... the problem is all of the taxes, charges, mandatory fees, and mark-ups along the way that are involved in getting them here.

If you back into a retail price point from there, what we're talking about is a double in 470 that sells initially for less than about $3K US.

quote:

A new Merkel 470 only costs about $5K-US ...

I got my Merkel .500 NE about 18 months ago for $7000.00. new_guy is right about the taxes and what not.

While in Austria last summer, I was perusing a hunting catalogue and I BELIEVE it listed a Merkel in the NE rounds as selling for 4000,00 Euros +

Don't hold me to that figure, but my initial thought when I saw that figure was "WOW, I could have saved a few bucks if I bought that gun here!"

The Frenchman's DR's are on www.bigfivehq.com. Click on search/purchase items. The are very overbuilt, very ugly.

Yes, there's an OZ site www.sportingguns.com.au that has MERKLE 470 NE for under $5300- U.S. dollars. (This site does not always come up for me.)

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
The Frenchman's DR's are on www.bigfivehq.com. Click on search/purchase items. The are very overbuilt, very ugly..

I DEFINITELY agree, but assuming they shoot straight (which I suppose they do given the price), they are a good example of what is theoretically possible in the world of bbl construction.

Best,

John

I hope he is not holding his breath in anticipation of a sale!!!!!!!


His name is Bouchet and I have seen his DR's anywhere from 75,000 to 200K.

http://doublegunhq.com/searchFrame.htm

I will be happy if you are right I just don't see it happening.[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:

Market for..... "high quality",...."reasonably priced", .....and "470NE double"!

..............and all in the same title!



There is a market for a high quality 470NE double rifle, but it will be higher than $5K.

I suppose it depends on what one considers "HIGH QUALITY". If you mean a solid working double rifle chambered for 470NE, then it can be done, and has been done. We have several double rifles that can be bought at the maker's shop for under $5K! However, if it is imported into the USA, to be sold here, it will be far above that price. Tack on shipping, import tax, fee to the importer, distributer profit, shipping to a dealer, and dealer profit, state sales tax when you buy it, and that price at the maker, will double, at least, by the time you get your sweaty hands on it!

The used market bottoms at about 20 % below new price, making even the cheapest well made working double rifle chambered for any large NE cartridge bottom out at around $8K if you're lucky, for one in very good shape! Here I'm talking one of the "off the shelf" doubles with only the bare basics. Most are a little rough around the edges, but are well made working rifles, that one can depend on to work up to the mark, in the field. Full retail at the store in the USA, will run you between $10K, and $14K for a working model, new!

I certainly wouldn't want to depend on a 470NE double rifle, that could be sold new in the USA for under $5K, to protect my life!

This might be a topic for a different thread or at least a detour for this informative thread but...

What are the import dities or paperwork needed to import a DR as a private citizen for personal use? Is it alot of hassel?
Thanks Guys
AkMike

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
even the cheapest well made working double rifle chambered for any large NE cartridge bottom out at around $8K if you're lucky,

This isn't entirely true. An AR poster picked up a nice used Merkel .470 recently for aroung $6500 if I recall. I remember seeing it online before it was mentioned here and thinking "damn, that won't last long". Bargains are out there even though prices are always better in Europe as mentioned above....and I wouldn't hesitate to trust me life to a Merkel vs. a Chapuis or Searcy.

JMHO,

John

OVERSEAS PURCHASE OF FIREARM.
Mike, this is off the original thread, but here is information.
You go on a trip to Europe, you purchase a firearm, as a purchase "incidental to the trip". You leave the gun at the dealer in Europe. You can tell me (EurogunImports) the details of the purchase. I will apply for an import permit showing I am importing for you. It takes 3 to 6 weeks to get the import permit.
When I have the import permit you tell the dealer to send the rifle via air freight to Euroguns in Houston. I will pick up the rifle at the airport, clear it thru customs and give the rifle to you. Of course I have to get an "OK" from NICS check on you
Cost: You need to add to the price you paid out of the country the following (estimated):
Freight and Insurance $225.
Customs broker fee 175.
Import duty 3.1% of purchase 155. (on $5K)
My fee 500.
That is it. There is a federal excise tax of 11%, however you would be exempt from this tax until you sell the gun. When you sell the firearm you are supposed to send the 11% tax to the BATF.

I recently purchased a Merkel 140 in 470 N.E. + gave $9,500.00.It was'nt a "bargain" however I felt it was fair.I'd love to find a good dbl. for $5000.00 but I'm somewhat cynical when it comes to getting something for considerably less than standard market value.I did enquire of Merkal as to the cost of having an additional set of barrels in 375 + was informed that it would probably be in the $5000.00 range approximately.I do agree that Ruger could come out with a double probably at a much more palatable price,but whether their marketing people would find it cost effective;who knows.I have heard rumors of a Texas company,(in Fredricksburg,I believe) that was planning on putting out a double in 45-70 for under $5000.00,although I don't know the validity of that.I did'nt check into it as I was'nt really interested in the calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
even the cheapest well made working double rifle chambered for any large NE cartridge bottom out at around $8K if you're lucky,

This isn't entirely true. An AR poster picked up a nice used Merkel .470 recently for aroung $6500 if I recall.
John

Anything can happen on any given day! I know a man who bought a 54 Corvette that had been in a barn since the first year of Viet Nam, when it's owner was killed in combat. He bought it for $700, and the kid's mother said she was glad to get it out of her sight!

I don't think, however, you will find many 54 Corvettes for $700!Not that I'd want one at any price, if I had to keep it!

The average price for a used, but like new 470NE Merkel 140-A Safari, with the factory fitted case,and papers, is between $7500, and $8000. This is because the MSRP, on a new one now is almost $11,000 in the USA!

Uh huh....right. That Merkel was appearing on gunsamerica only in my dreams. Whatever. Anyway, regardless of what a gun "retails for" in the US, the fact is that a company like Chapuis or Merkel can make .470 rifles in Europe, pay Euro wages, send them through a dealer network here where everyone takes their cut, pay the shipping, broker fees, excise tax, AND STILL MAKE A BUCK when prices are (or should be) under $9000. They could probably still make a buck at quite a bit less actually. That tells me that Ruger could do it for $5000 especially if they built something like a 450/400 on a Gold Label sxs frame and could spread the costs out over two product lines. Further, I think there is A LOT of mark-up here on foreign produced big bore rifles above the medium bores that is NOT remotely based on costs of production. Again, we saw $3800 retail recently for a 9,3x74R (admittedly a killer deal) vs. $9000 (or quite a bit more if you love Champlins) for a .470 Chapuis? Sorry, I don't buy that there is a substantial (or any) cost justification for this. Given that, I think it's pretty clear that a company like Ruger could absolutely OWN the double rifle market in this country if they wanted to. Fortunately for all domestic and foreign producers, they clearly don't see owning that admittedly small market as a worthwhile use of resources.

JMHO,

John

quote:

Mike Brooks: This might be a topic for a different thread or at least a detour for this informative thread but...What are the import duties or paperwork needed to import a DR as a private citizen for personal use?

Find a FFL holder to receive the rifle just like any interstate purchase, apply to the BATF with a Form 6 which they will approve in about 5 weeks, have the seller send the rifle to the dealer who will perform the normal transfer. Your dealer will have to pick it up at US Customs or you can do it yourself with an affidavit from him. Seems complex at first but actually very easy.

quote:

Given that, I think it's pretty clear that a company like Ruger could absolutely OWN the double rifle market in this country if they wanted to.

John the Greek,

I sure do not disagree, in concept, with your above statement. The basic question is whether the double rifle market represents a sufficiently large market to justify the effort for Ruger. While the rate of return of the investment might appear to be favorable the question is whether the total revenue and total profit (basically the net present value) from this program would be sufficient to make it "meaningful" and thereby worthwhile.

I have seen this general statement made several times within these forums and wonder if Ruger has ever made any statements, either public or private, as to their interest in building double rifles?

The only way to attract a mass market in America would be to have a system as simple and fuctional as the Encore in that one could purchase a frame and add barrels as desired.

Even then, most hunters would consider the two shots an unecessary limitation. Those who wanted such a limitaion would be drawn closer to a single shot than a double.

At the end of the day, doubles are not a good hunting firearm for a lot of NA. Maybe they were the best and most reliable means of protection from charging dangerous game however, until the Great Plains become populated with transplanted Cape Buffalo they are just another anacronism.

The market for doubles in this country is limited to people like some of us who revel in the history and craftsmanship, the mystique of bygone African and Indian hunting safaris (whether we can afford them or not). For most of that crowd, a new-made and less inexpensive gun doesn't hold much interest other than as a curiosity or to say you have one in the safe. It will get drug out periodically for play but when it's time to get serious for a hunt I doubt most would drag it out first.

tiggertate
Actually, after using double rifles for the last 8 or 9 years, in Texas, Montana, Idaho, Alaska, Canada, and Zimbabwe, for game from turkey, bobcat, coyote, deer, wild pigs, bears, caribou, civet cat, jackel, waterbuck, kudu, klipspringer, eland, wildebeast, zebra, giraffe, baboon, buffalo, and elephant, I have found the double to be the IDEAL hunting rifle for ANY game usually taken less than say, 250 yards. I have stretched it to 300 on occassion.

I was pretty sure you'd respond to that post, LOL. You are the dedicated user, not Joe Hunter. Someone (several someones, in fact have taken much the same game with a spear that you have taken with a double but that doesn't mean there is a market for "well-built, low cost" spears. We were talking markets, not capabilities.

quote:

Originally posted by Don In Colorado:
John the Greek,

I sure do not disagree, in concept, with your above statement. The basic question is whether the double rifle market represents a sufficiently large market to justify the effort for Ruger. While the rate of return of the investment might appear to be favorable the question is whether the total revenue and total profit (basically the net present value) from this program would be sufficient to make it "meaningful" and thereby worthwhile.

I have seen this general statement made several times within these forums and wonder if Ruger has ever made any statements, either public or private, as to their interest in building double rifles?

I'd have to agree with you. I'd love to get a big bore double but I'll spend the money hunting right now. A quality made double for less than $5,000 would cause me to start saving right now for it but I feel that I'd probably be one out of less than 1,000 people who would do so.

Of the hard core gun cranks that are around the US the number that are really interested in double rifles is really small. There's 10-100 times more guys around who want to paint their rifles and scopes with Krylon and call themselves "snipers".

tiggertate
Thanks for the complement.
Actually most all of the game I have taken say @95%, even the elephants at 6 yards could have been taken in complete safety with a single shot... However that quick second shot feels very good to have.
I have found that the quick, immediate second shot has been more of use than a magazine of 3 or 4 rounds.
The reality of it is it is the guy behind the rifle that makes the difference... I just feel the double gives me the best chance of survival in the most dangerous of situations.

In terms of the comparative value of the double rifle market to Ruger a few calculations can provide some insight as to their possible interest. I note on the Ruger website that in 2003 (the last annual report posted) they reported firearms-related revenue of $130 million and gross profit of $34.7 million.

I recall reading in one of these forums that during the recent Reno convention Butch Searcy received something like 100 double rifle orders. For the sake of argument, let us say that it was 200. Again for the sake of this example, let us assume that we can sell 5 times this number annually or 1,000 rifles. (I think that it is reasonable that at a lower cost we will help stimulate the market at least a little.) Let us also assume that we can sell these rifles for $5,000 apiece and make a 50% gross profit (or roughly twice what they make on their current product line). (Again these are only assumed data for the sake of this calculation.) This would amount to $5 million dollars in additional revenue and $2.5 million in gross profit. This would equate to an incremental increase of 3.8% in total revenue and 7.2% in gross profit.

I hate to say it, but I would suggest that the Board of Directors might yawn at this point....

Unless one could project a market of at least 2,600 rifles a year (or a $13 million market; 10% of the total firearm sales revenue) I doubt that they would have much interest. They might have some interest if one could reasonably project a material increase in gross profit.

(I sure wish these numbers looked better....)

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
tiggertate
Thanks for the complement.
Actually most all of the game I have taken say @95%, even the elephants at 6 yards could have been taken in complete safety with a single shot... However that quick second shot feels very good to have.
I have found that the quick, immediate second shot has been more of use than a magazine of 3 or 4 rounds.
The reality of it is it is the guy behind the rifle that makes the difference... I just feel the double gives me the best chance of survival in the most dangerous of situations.

And I would agree to the extent of my limited experience.

I think Remington's lack of effort in forcing the Bakial double rifle to the market says a good bit about the demographic information out there for double sales in the US market. They can't even justify enough sales (for a major producer) to push a functional $700 version into the US market.

tiggertate:

Spoken like someone who has never hunted with a double. It has nothing to do with nostalgia. It's about choosing the best tool for various types of hunting. The problem with doubles is that so few have ever actually tried a good one. It's the bolt action that is the wheezing dinosaur.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Actually, my bolt riles do wheeze but not as much as me, LOL.

So few have ever tried a good one precisely because a good one is reachable by so few.

But I'll also bet damn few tourist hunters in Africa use doubles, either. Maybe 5%? They are certainly a professional's tool and can be a hunter's delight but there will never, ever ever be a mass market for them at any price here in Amerca. Which was the gist of my first post.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

But I'll also bet damn few tourist hunters in Africa use doubles, either. Maybe 5%? They are certainly a professional's tool and can be a hunter's delight but there will never, ever ever be a mass market for them at any price here in Amerca. Which was the gist of my first post.

I agree Triggertate, there will never be a mass market for double rifles in the USA, or anyplace else! The reason is not that folks don't want them, it is because they can't be mass produced. The bolt rifles can, and as such they are inexpencive, to make, and if you look at this without squinting, most "off the shelf" bolt rifles could be sold for under $200 and still make a profit, especially if they were made at Eastern Europian wages!

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
Uh huh....right. That Merkel was appearing on gunsamerica only in my dreams. John

John, I denote a little twinge of anger in your post, and I don't know why!

I'm not saying it wasn't there for that price, it was, I saw it, and if I didn't already have one, I'd have been bidding on it! All I was saying was, you won't find them, in top shape for that price everyday! Hell I bought a brand new Cased, 140-E 9.3x74R double five years ago for $4695, but you will pay more than that for a used one, in good shape, today, unless you find a sucker! My reasoning for quoteing the MSRP was not to say they are worth that price, but to say with new ones listed at that price,in the USA, the price of used ones, in the USA, goes up as well!

Now! I'm through with this! BYE!