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Old original Barnes RN Mono at the bottom with the highest barrel strain for the 470 NE. Pre X bullet. I don't see any X bullets, as in non TSX tested but there may be some in the data somewhere. Again, would just have to dig it out of the thread if it's there.  | |||
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Here is a follow on to the 470 NE tests with additional bullets. Note which bullets had the highest barrel strains right down at the bottom!! Cast and Gas Checked Cast were higher than the original Barnes Mono.   | |||
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"That steel shank isn't going to give at all and compress the lead inside the way Shootaway opines." It is much easier on the feet walking on dirt road than concrete.The ground doesn't have to give.The lead core could act like a shock absorber. The results show that the highest pressures are caused by a mono not a FMJ.When the surface contact area on the lands is the same, it is the monometal causing higher pressure. | |||
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Mr. Williams, do you know what the chamber pressure has fallen to just before the bullets exit the barrel and what the barrel id and od is at the gauge location? Does the data collection system allow 2 channels so that you can get both strains at one time or do you have to run multiple tests to get both sets of data? Thanks. C.G.B. | |||
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CGB, I wasn't involved in the testing. Just an interested internet observer without a dog in the fight. I seem to recall some questions along those same lines dealing with chamber pressures while Michael and Sam were testing but I don't have a specific reference to it. As to the ID and OD of the barrels at gauge locations, I don't remember any discussion along those lines. Maybe PM SRose and see if he is monitoring this thread. He might have some info along those lines and certainly will have more info on the set up than I. Short of that, I'd say to find a discussion on the chamber vs barrel strain pressure readings, look through that thread and find one of the data summaries like the one I posted above. Look for the report where they first started reporting chamber pressures in addition to barrel strains. IIRC, they added chamber pressure readings when they got a few similar questions to yours. | |||
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Actually the data shows the absolute highest barrel strain to be from a cast lead bullet. Anyone claiming cast lead is unsafe for a DR? The second highest to be from a gas checked lead bullet. Those two readings certainly kill the "lead compresses" theory. The third highest from the old original Barnes mono, pre X and pre TSX. Across the board, the Woodleighs, especially the FMJ is right up there close to, if not at the top. Not to mention that the Woodleigh FMJ is undersized to boot! So the question arises, why is this the case and if it is the case, why do people consider the Woodleigh FMJ to be a "safe" for doubles bullet and monos not. I opine that it is largely due to outdated info that has somehow become the "recognized truth". One of those truths being that the standard round for vintage guns back in the day was the original Kynoch. Kynoch is now loading again and use the Woodleigh because those bullets are "standardized to the Kynoch design". Again, I always take a statement as the start of a discussion and not the end. Turns out that the Woodleigh is based on the on Kynoch SHAPE, but not of identical construction. The steel jacket in the Woodliegh, and current Kynoch is quite a bit thicker than the old Kynoch bullets. The testing Michael and Sam did reflect this fact. The old Kynoch's that Sam had produced the absolute lowest strains and the Woodleighs produced some of the highest. Same shape, different construction. The old saying holds: "There more going on than meets the eye". Another truth is that the original mono bullet, while producing a very high barrel strain, is not the mono bullet you'll find on the market today. The CEB and Northfork's have designs that now produce the lowest barrel strains of currently produced bullets. Based on that, one cannot simply say without qualification, mono's are not safe for double rifles. So with the DR info gatekeepers all agreeing that the Woodleigh and Hornady cup and core bullets are DR safe to shoot, one can only look at that data and conclude that if those bullets are not damaging rifles, the current offering of mono metals with driving bands are also safe since they produce much lower strains. And if anyone is worried about damaging an old vintage rifle with inferior steel and thin barrels, I would think choosing the bullet with the lowest strains would be prudent. Somehow, this has gotten turned around on it's head however and the highest strains are being touted as the go to option. | |||
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Sure, if the diameter and the type of alloy of the "lead" bullet was stated.Some cast bullets are very hard especially those that require a gas check and they are usually of a larger diameter. | |||
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Todd, Thanks for digging up the info,as we can see the Barnes non banded had the highest strain numbers except the cast bullets,funny enough I shot hundreds of cast through my first DR,a 470 Merkel with no ill effects,the gun is still going strong, now if we assume that banded solids are a new development,& I shoot NF's,would it be safe to assume that given the old vintage guns,inferior steel,tired barrels etc & adding to that non banded solids? that we might have found the cause of OSR? & other damages,also the reluctance of shooters to shy away from Mono's? Like DuggaBoye mentioned,the only way to prove OSR is to get a set of vintage barrels & shoot some old style mono's. Re the Woodleigh fmj's,they have been working well for a lot of people for a long time,tried & proven in the field over & over again,they have a reputation hard to beat. DRSS | |||
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Right Bill. Now we are talking on the same page a bit. If the Woodleigh FMJ's have been working well for a long time, tried and true, and they are shown to produce higher strains than the monos with driving bands, then we should be able to conclude that mono's are not the boogey man they've been made out to be. Possibly the old original monos but certainly not the current offerings. And then back to those original monos, are we even sure they are an issue in light of the cast bullet strains? George is correct in that there are cast bullets and there are cast bullets. We don't know from the data shown, anything about these particular bullet's hardness or diameter. But if one was to make a blanket statement as has been made about monos over the years, from this data it would appear the blanket statement to not shoot cast bullets would be more accurate. And that's what has interested me most about this research and every time this topic raises its head. That blanket statements are made without reference to real empirical evidence and data and simply accepted on the merits of "common knowledge". And when presented with real data that differs from the established norms, an inordinate amount of resistance is encountered. It's almost as if DR's, OSR, and Mono Metal bullets are a religion that should not be questioned further. Me, I like to question things and have my opinions challenged. It's a great way to learn. | |||
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When Micheal was in the process of searching for the cause of OSR, as mentioned in past posts he kept turning a barrel down until it was paper thin with no ill effects. I asked Micheal to liberally oil a barrel before shooting. On the premise that many may not pass a clean patch through a barrel before shooting and if a little is good a lot may be better when storing a gun. Low and behold he got OSR. Was or is this the cause?? it will take someone "MUCH" smarter than me in Hydrolics to explain.. | |||
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I don't remember him getting OSR from the oiled barrel but I think I remember him getting some permanent expansion of the diameter. Let me see if I can find that data. | |||
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O my it does exist DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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No. It does not. Here is the oiled barrel report. Down at the bottom of the chart. The heavily oiled barrel resulted in a permanent expansion of the .0225" barrel by .0008". No rifling appeared on the outside of the barrel.  | |||
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Thanks Todd my memory is plagued by way too much useless information. | |||
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Todd, FYI if you go to Nitroexpress.com,in the double rifle section,you will find a discussion that is maybe 12 pages long,it might give you some more knowledge on this matter. http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post144117 Page 10 has mention of our very own Cal inspecting OSR on a DR. BTW,400NitroExpress was one of the original members of the DRSS,sadly he passed away recently,he was a wealth of knowledge re DR's. DRSS | |||
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Bill, Cal and I have spoken at great length about OSR.  | |||
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Its no problem to find 12 pages of double rifle BS, it pops up every so often, mostly mystical BS and voodoo... Ive shot hundreds of monolitics thru all my double guns, Searcys, Merkels, and a number of English rifles...Ive shot them just like I would a bolt action but kept the pressure to book level more or less...Its all BS compounded by experts of sorts who imagine many of these things..work up your load just like any other gun, look for pressure signs, mic your bores on English guns and use those bullets...and 4831 and 4350 are fine powders in doubles and never blew up my guns, 3031 will ring a chamber Im told, but never had it happen.. I think what happens is some folks use too much powder and blame the mistake on a million other reasons, making excuses for stupidity.. Its pretty hard to overload a double if your trying to sight your rifle to group properly. the group will start opening up if you load to hot..When I hear this I know a bolt action dude is at work and a newbie to doubles..It is different. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Many people on these forums view Cal as an authority on vintage double rifle related items and rightfully so. Here is Cal's first hand experience with a rifle with OSR: http://www.calpappas.com/2010/...eliever-has.html?m=1 I can only attest to what I have seen with my eyes. I have handled 4 rifles with OSR, one of them being 400 Nitro's rifle referenced by Cal above. Two of the rifles I handled came into my hands with OSR evident but I had no history of the rifle so I can't say what caused it. The other two, 400 Nitro's above and one other had no sign of OSR prior to being shot with Barnes X bullets and Swift A Frames. The OSR in this fourth rifle was more severe than in 400 Nitro's rifle. I believe much of the OSR damage was caused by early versions of the mono solids prior to the driving bands introduced. The later versions like the NFs, etc with driving bands are safer to shoot particularly if they are the correct size for the bore and the rifling imprints only on the bands. As I said earlier in this string, it's your rifle, you do what you want with it. | |||
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Trying my best to dig up this PM conversation Cal referenced. It appears gone from my personal zone. Maybe Cal can dig it up on his. We had a long discussion about the rifle he was presented by Graeme at some show where the owner claimed it was caused by a Barnes bullet. http://forums.accuratereloadin...371033681#7371033681
Been here before boys. Got the T Shirts to prove it.  | |||
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It proves that unless you reduce the diameter of the bullet and leave only two small bands to contact the rifling,monometals are harmful to barrels. Lets us not forget that FMJ solids are only used on game like elephant or for a follow up buff.In other words they are rarely shot.Brass solids are used as softs too and more often than FMJ's.Also how long will brass bullets shoot accurately?The ones I tried stopped shooting long before softs and cast.They would not shoot accurately at all if I remember correctly. | |||
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I would have thought the hydro would have been in between the CEB and Solid Shank Barnes for chamber pressure as less surface area in contact with the rifling. | |||
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So is that chamber pressure more than spec? If the pressure is over spec all bets are off. If within then nothing to get excited about I’d say. Looks like more variance in chamber pressure than barrel pressure across the board. Is any of those readings more than a 75 grain load of cordite and a 500 grain bullet? In a 470 for example. What do you think the safety margin is in a double? 150 percent? 200 percent? I doubt it’s 125 percent White Mountains Arizona | |||
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I would say that is higher than normal velocities/spec than original 75gr cordite loads would have produced. Remember 2150fps was what was achieved with 28” barrels. You lose around 25fps/inch of barrel. Realistic velocities in vintage rifles with 24-26” barrels was probably closer to 2050 to 2100fps. Your rifle will shoot more accurately at these velocities as that is likely the velocity that factory Kynoch ammo would have produced and hence the velocity it would have been regulated at. | |||
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Surely if ever you would see OSR it will be when a tungsten carbide rifling button is hydraulically pushed and rotated through a barrel to form the ISR. Here we have something much harder than any hunting bullet with no 'give' whatsoever, slightly over-sized to the desired bore size, being forced down the barrel to impress the ISR. Do new button rifled barrels show OSR? Perhaps there is a far cheaper way to rifle barrels that we haven't thought of, shoot a cast bullet through a barrel to engrave the rifling then use that as the button to ISR new barrels  | |||
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All this doom and gloom about shooting saami compliant loads through a vintage big bore. Makes me think I shouldn’t shoot it at all...... White Mountains Arizona | |||
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