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One of Us |
Yeah, I get what you're saying Bill about which comes first, the chicken or the egg with the bands. My point is that the CEB and Northfork shank is undersized and the bands touch the rifling while with the TSX, the shank touches the rifling and the bands are cut into the shank to provide a place for the displaces copper to move into. Basically the difference being the TSX has a larger area of contact with the rifling due to the shank having bands cut into it where the CEB and Northfork's shank does not touch the rifling. Semantics, but that's all. That said, the TSX should produce more barrel strain than the CEB and Northfork, and Michael and Sam's research confirms that to be the case across the calibers they tested.[/QUOT Understood & I am in full agreement on the TSX bullets,I will never shoot them out of a gun that has pencil thin barrels like my Chapuis had,that was an expensive lesson,although I am working on a plainsgame load outta my 500-416 K-gun,350 gr TSX's @ 2400 fps,they do shoot accurate,they have also worked real well for me in a Bolt action,where barrel strain is not such a big concern. DRSS | |||
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G55 , as best I recall from the late 70's,early 80's when the monos without driving bands first appeared-- i saw 5 or 6 vintage Anglo doubles (a couple very expensive ones, H&H,etc) with split barrels or OSR ( or striping as Todd prefers) Others with rib separations(though that may or may nor be related) Those of us who have seen the older barrels with damage won't use a non-driving band mono in the vintage guns- (i would not use (even) driving band monos in an expensive vintage at all) My Anglos never saw any bullets but: Woodleigh, Corbin, CCB (Barnes intermediate name) Sisk, Jack Carter, DKT and linotype gas check cast- Others that quickly adopted A-Square Monos, Barnes and one other one that now slips my brain-- had trouble-(as noted above) I have sold all my vintage guns and shoot NF, CEB--etc in my Heym's (cold hammer forged modern steel barrels) Further note-- You may or may not recall all the teething pains Barnes experienced early on in even the Bolt guns- - locked bolts,ruptured cases --etc Yes Pressure-- much more pressure over the same load of powder for the same bullet weight-- Then they coated them, (the blue bullets) to reduce pressure then they adopted driving bands-- to reduce pressure AND add compressibility --to reduce pressure AND yes, ultimately they lowered their recommended load volumes( powder weight) again to reduce pressure So Go for it-- start moderate and load up Chrono and pattern You gun your call maybe you will not see the things we saw with the older guns | |||
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I have zero experience with the TSX so that is a mystery! However the NORTHFORK I do have experience with, and the bullet's shank is originally first cut to groove depth, then the relief area between the very thin rings is cut to under bore size so the displaced copper in the thin bands has a place to go, as Todd said. The thin rings then are engraved by the rifling, and the top of those rings fill the depth of the grooves to seal the pressure in so there is no blow-by. This is the way all mono metal bullets should be made, and is the only mono bullet I use in my newly made doubles. I still have a box of brass bullets in 45 cal the have the shank that is groove depth with no cuts to make bands. The first time I fired one of those in a double rifle chambered for 458 RCBS it created so much chamber pressure that it locked the rifle closed so tight that I had the remove the fore-stock and break the rifle over my knee to get it open.  Anyone who wants these bullets I will gladly give them to them. The bullets are not only made wrong in shape, but are made of very HARD BRASS. Even the NORTHFORKS do not go in my vintage doubles, but I do use them in my newer double in both my new double in 470 NE, and 9.3X74R rifles. Now that Northfork has shut down My stash of 100 bullets in both 470 and 9.3X74 will be guarded in my safe and used sparingly. others may do as it suits!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Nosler knows no known issues with either the billets or the loaded ammo( that’s what I have). You would think someone would of said something by now. He did say to have any old gun checked by a gunsmith before firing anything through it. Standard disclaimer. I do believe in the early days of mono metals there were some issues of excessive pressure due to new bulletdesign etc and powder combinations. But once the right combo is found and proper pressure is discovered should be really no diffrent than any other billet. As long as it is at a safe pressure level. I am sure there have been some bad old guns out there that would of blown up with any load. In anycase I’ll shoot some and see what happens. The Barnes solids were very accurate so be interesting to compare. At least my gun is not a priceless gem so if something bad happens you all can say I told you so  White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Bottom line is per the data derived in Michael and Sam's research, if you believe mono metals like the CEB and Northfork will damage your gun, you should damn sure not shoot a Woodleigh or Hornady in your gun as they produce higher barrel strains. In fact, the highest strains tested. If you're worried about the CEB or Northfork, the only real option you have is the old ORIGINAL Kynoch. They are the only bullets that produced lower barrel strains than the CEB or Northfork. | |||
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So Todd what is the difference between strain and pressure?
White Mountains Arizona | |||
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I was told not to use Woodleigh solids in my old doubles (pre WW1, but really anything made pre WW2 or afterwards with pre WW2 components) but use Woodleigh Hydro’s due to their composition and driving bands. DRSS | |||
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Told by who? White Mountains Arizona | |||
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By a well known double rifle user and author. DRSS | |||
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Sean, I'll point you once again to the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future thread. It's described here in the very first post. http://forums.accuratereloadin...201069141#1201069141 Barrel strain is a measure Michael and Same tested whereby they were able to measure the barrel's level of metal displacement as the bullet passed down the barrel. Different from the level of pressure behind the bullet forcing the bullet down the barrel. As you read further into the thread, as I've posted links above, you'll see they correlated the data into easily readable tables. These tables show both pressure and barrel strains. | |||
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I have two questions? How does one measure barrel pressure? Is anything inserted into the barrel to do so? Same for barrel strain. | |||
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| One of Us |
A strain guage measures pressure I thought and that would make them interrrelated. Usually on the chamber area of the receiver. They must have put some on the barrel. But it still boils down to pressure. A properly sized bullet made of proper material will not bulge damage or mysteriously blow apart a barrel without some mechanism to increase pressure beyond the ultimate load strength. Mechanism being not able to move down bore correctly (obstruction) or incorrect powder or amount or incorrect load density. Or a damaged cracked or otherwise compromised barrel or material. Really no magic involved. The poster whose gun blew up in fact did it with hornady factory loads not a mono metal solid so this whole argument is not following logical progression. Apparently a myth has become fact. If anyone has a picture of “OSR” please post so we can see what it is exactly. White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Gunslinger55, to simplify, strain is the expansion or contraction of a solid material. We can try to measure it with a device called a strain gauge, which is a device whose electrical resistance changes as it is stretched or compressed. What causes strain in an object is the 64,000$ question. Pressure, temperature, torsion, shear and lots of other stuff can cause strain. Sorting it out can be very difficult and very expensive. We must give credit to Michael and Sam for actually using some science, rather than opinion, to try to sort out this problem. C.G.B. | |||
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 From the link I just posted, from the very FIRST post on the thread, about half way down, just below the photos of the bullets: I run a Pressure Trace system when I need to test pressures of any of my cartridges, and loads. Sam saw this one day, and decided we should hook the system up to a double rifle, a strain gage in the rear to measure actual pressures, and a strain gage on the barrel to make an attempt at measuring the stress put on the barrel at the point of where the strain gage is attached. With some thought on that matter, I could see no downside to at least make the effort to see what we could learn. I could not find a reason that it would not work, since that is what a strain gage does, it measures the amount of barrel stretch either by pressure, or the passage of a bullet down the bore! The Pressure Trace had been very reliable for me on all matters in the past, and I have tested it against factory ammo, and my own case measurements and observations, so as long as the gage is attached properly, and the connections are good, then it is a viable tool that one can use to measure pressures. It may not be exact, but it has always correlated will with all other factors, including factory ammo tests. So last week we attached the strain gages to one of Sam's 470 Nitro Double rifles , one in the rear for pressure readings, and one 5 inches from the muzzle to see if we could get a reading as the bullet passed that point on the barrel . | |||
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How long will bullets shoot accurate with a diameter measured only on two small bands? As soon as there is the slightest amount of barrel wear there will be no engraving on the bullet.Jacketed bullets will continue to engrave.It is not for nothing that jacketed and cast lead bullets shoot accurately for much longer periods than monometal bullets.The pressure is needed. | |||
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What if a FMJ bullet was reduced in diameter except for two small copper bands? I wonder how that would do in these tests? | |||
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Ok just pressure then. That’s the bottom line. No magic no wives tales no mysterious boogie men from the closet. If ammo is saami compliant or loaded correctly should never exceed ultimate design load if gun is not in good working condition and damaged. Seems simple to me. The nosler 470 loaded solid is saami compliant. Tell me again how pressure will magically exceed design strength? I think what some people are saying is an old double cannot even fire original pressure load for some reason. That’s the only thing that makes sense. And why is this phenomena not found in bolt rifles? Or is it? Same vintage bolt rifle will have same metallurgy? White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Yes bolts will have the same metallurgy,but the difference here is that a DR has two barrels soldered together, When you introduce a solid with no bands in the barrels the soldering between the barrels will also suffer stress,at the very least I would think that you might damage regulation,you could get away with it if the bullet is a little undersized,I have only heard of two guns blowing up,the one mentioned here & another of new manufacture that someone shot 5744 with fillers,with an older gun,you do not know how much fatigue is in the metal,so you take precautions not to fug your gun  you do not want to hot rod the old lady,show her some respect instead  DRSS | |||
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Many of the Vintage Double Rifle barrels were also thinner profiles than their bolt contemporaries. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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| one of us |
Gentlemen, There seems to be two things that are involved here! One is chamber pressure, and the other is strain against the walls of the barrels of a double rifle. The high pressure is caused by two separate things. One is the amount and type of powder used in the loaded cartridge being fired. If the high pressure is caused by the powder over load, and, or use of backer rod over powder, then that is something that may be the fault of the hand-loader. However if the high pressure is caused by the hardness and ,or over size of the bullet made of material the is much to hard for the rifling to engrave, and with no place for the displaced material to go, then the bullet is the problem. The experiments done by the afore mentioned folks who to find strain on the barrel, or barrels to be damaged, proved what they were shooting for! However what they proved has nothing to do with VINTAGE double rifle barrels. that is because the tests were done in barrels that were newly made, not vintage barrels. Anyone who knows anything about vintage double rifles knows that the steel in the barrels is not only sub standard when compared to new steel barrels, but usually thinner as well. Even in most NEW double rifles the barrel walls are thinner than those of most bolt rifle, made today. In a new double rifle it stands to reason that those barrels will handle stress far better that of a double rifle made 90 years ago. It seems to me we got off the original subject here, which is the use of most mono-metal bullets in "VINTAGE" double rifles! However as BILL73 said, add to the vintage steel, and the fact that the barrels in a double rifle are soldered together and to the ribs top and bottom that may in some cases give way to the stress of a hard bullet passing along a very thin barrel causing the solder to fail. Also in most older doubles the barrels are very thin at the muzzles, and soft to boot so that the last five or six inches of the vintage barrels may be expanded enough to cause a loss of regulation. …………………………………………….. Carry on!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Show me a vintage rifle with barrels thinner than this. This is from the final stages of the testing Michael and Sam conducted when the issue of barrel thinness was brought up. Please note, they shot STEEL OVERSIZED mono's through this thin barrel.   Here is the barrel compared to a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70.........  Here is the barrel compared to a Winchester 1886 in 45/70.........  Here is the barrel compared to a 458 B&M..........  Back in the late 1500's, there were some guys that started thinking about the evidence suggesting the earth to be round, and not flat. The gatekeepers of traditional thinking claimed Heresy! When questioned, they noted that long time well respected map makers had always drawn the earth on a flat surface so it had to be so. Yes, but what about the tides and the earth's reflection on the moon, could it be that traditional beliefs are wrong in light of this evidence. NO! I'm telling you, there are sailors who have sailed to the edge. They tell us out at sea, you can see for miles and miles and it's all flat. They have seen monsters at the edge. Those monsters are rifling on the outside of a steel barrel. They were conceived by mono metal bullets. FLAT I tell you!!!   | |||
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Interesting. What was the hypothesis? They all shot the same? White Mountains Arizona | |||
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If barrel strain were only due to the gas pressure in the barrel then life would be good and almost simple. The bullet appears to be exerting more radial pressure on the barrel than could be explained by just the gas pressure. IE is the bullet 'slugging up' or some how acting as a wedge and amplifying the effect of the pressure? B&M's data would seem to indicate something like this is going on. An interesting phenomenon for sure. Pretty gutsy using a 70k$ double rifle as a test subject, no? C.G.B. | |||
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Probably the best bet would be to read the thread! But in short, nothing mentioned in this current thread is new. Everything brought up here was brought up while the testing was going on. In fact, Michael and Sam tried to address every concern and question put to them. They openly asked for new parameters to test. It appears to me they were really trying to find the truth on the subject. Michael went to great lengths to not tell anyone what bullets are safe or not. He simply tried to take an old wives tale, that being that a "too hard bullet" that somehow later morphed into "a monometal bullet" causes OSR, (Remember Graeme Wright's comment was NOT a mono but a "too hard steel jacketed bullet", test that theory and see if it holds water of if maybe there is another culprit. The research wasn't to disprove the existence of OSR as I personally had a M-77 in the early 80's with a striped barrel and others have claimed to see it on doubles. What the research tried to do was determine if a bullet, any bullet, mono metal or cup and core, could cause this OSR phenomenon, or is there another cause. They were not able to reproduce OSR even with an extremely thin barrel of the same thickness of 5 sheets of printer paper, combined with a .003" oversized mono metal bullet, MADE OF STEEL!!! We are all free to draw our own conclusions. There is a lot of info in that thread. For me, I like to form opinions based on evidence. Seeing a barrel with stripes and pronouncing it as being caused by a mono metal bullet without having observed the barrel, clean of striping, then shoot a mono metal bullet, then observing the stripes, is not persuasive to me, regardless of the source. Experts are proven wrong all the time when new evidence is brought to light. A long way around to say that in my opinion, I know that barrel striping is a real thing ( I saw it on a rifle I owned ). From the data and evidence Michael and Sam produced, I believe this striping issue to be caused by something other than a bullet, ANY bullet. YMMV  | |||
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I read a lot of it but I am only really concerned with the argument that they will damage my own gun. From any logical perspective I believe any failure is due to the fact the guns are inherently weaker or in poor condition. Nothing else makes any sense. And is disproven in the testing. How does a double cause a bullet to be a barrel obstruction? Which I stated earlier? Unless there is some dimensional irregularities ? Magic? Barrel stripping seems to be a byproduct of manufacturing I’m guessing. And if the design is inherently weak then modern ones suffer the same fate White Mountains Arizona | |||
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You should really take the time to read and comprehend the entire thread. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I started the thread. I am trying to comprehend some of the old wives tales here. But having s hard time White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Basically some are saying one type of bullet( still not sure which) somehow bulges the barrel as it travels down the bore breaking the solder connection between both barrels then pushes the rifling inside out then blows up your gun. That about it? It’s with the cup and core or mono solids. Very perplexing White Mountains Arizona | |||
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One would reasonably assume that AA, Mass Spec and shear load/tensile testing of the older barrels steel would reveal: inferior steel as compared to today (both in cheimcal (alloy) composition, impuities, inclusions, etc SO- anyone willing to give up a berrel set to destructive testing and chemical analysis?? Bueller Bueller Anyone (a retired R&D Mechanical Design Engineerhas once before offered testing during a different discussion )So if one accepts the premise that the older barrel are most likely inferior (yet remain very expensive) WHY would one suject their valuable barrels to a such speculative venture- (besides their hands , eyes and other non valuable personal items) Particularly when the older( geneally softer), projectiles have been working for eons. (and now in many cases new (some even softer) chemically bonded ones exist) In spite of Michael an Sam's wonderful work-- (thank you both again) with a thin MODERN steel, NON-double configured barrel NONE of my vintage barrels have seen, NOR ever will see monos-- So call me a luddite- for not embracing a better mousetrap- MY antique MOUSETRAP, which is afterall mine , which by the way -works just dandy as it is- And YES Virginia, there are those of us that have seen the (In your some minds the mythical) OSR--and yes-- in person, on vitage rifles that prior to the monos--their outer barrel surface was as smooth as a babies behind --as well as burst, barrels, rib separations --etc If the the toy is your toy--- Then--treat it as you wish, DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Please don't mind me asking,what solids have you used in your vintage gun? DRSS | |||
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Just a thought,Norma does load both soft & solid Woodleigh's for the 470. DRSS | |||
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According to the research woodlieghs were of the higher strain than the monos I do believe . So hence the My confusion White Mountains Arizona | |||
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BINGO!!!! | |||
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Kynoch RWS Star Custom Wyoming Bonded a few others I cal no longer recall even bought a Corbin rig years ago (now sold) to make my own DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Todd, Did Micheal & Sam test barrel strain on any solid shank bullets? Non banded? DRSS | |||
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According to the empirical data provided I believe them safe to shoot. I will shoot then and let you all know what happens. The non empirical data is wives tales....... White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Which bullet Bill? I assume you aren't talking about the Woodleigh FMJ or Hornady DGX and DGS when you say solid shank as that is what they really are with their steel cup and lead core. That steel shank isn't going to give at all and compress the lead inside the way Shootaway opines. If you are talking about the old original barnes mono, pre TSX, yes, I believe they tested several of those. I'd have to dig that info out. | |||
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Bill, here is one of the 500 NE reports. I see there is a Barnes Original in there but that's not the original X bullet. I know they tested some original X bullets but you'd just have to dig through that thread to find them. They may have been on the 470 NE tests.  | |||
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