I originally posted in Big Bore, I am about to purchase my 1st Double. Plan a 470 NE for Elephant. Budget tops at 30K. Looking for most reliable and accurate for the money.

Your criteria is "most reliable and accurate for the money". Many will fit that slot; some listed below.
And there are several available for less than half of your budget. Guys will chime in, but I have Krieghoffs, Chapuis, Searcy, Merkel; all have well proven to be 100% reliable and dependable. and other guys like Verny Carron and Heym; that are dependable, but not anywhere near $30k. Prices are super soft right now because it seems everyone is getting too old for them. I see used ones selling for less than ever.
So, it depends on if you want an English rifle to collect (and shoot), or a more "off the rack, or less of a custom piece" European or Searcy (American) one to shoot. Prices are very different.
I'm pretty sure you can't touch a new H&H for less than $150K.
Others will come on and tell you more; I recommend you learn everything you can about double rifles before you buy one. I personally like the 450 NE over the 470 because bullets are easier to get and I can use lighter bullets for smaller things; yes you can get them to regulate.
It is always good to shoot some before you buy; for example, Krieghoff is totally reliable, and very accurate, but some can't master the safety/cocker. Come over and shoot some if you want.
If I had 30K to spend, I would order up a custom Heym. I don't want an old, more collectable one. In fact, I think I saw one on AR a while back.

Saw your other post in Big Bore forum.
Unless you bump up to $150,000, and have 2-3 years to wait, forget a new Rigby or H&H.

For a modern made double .470 look at Heym or Kreighoff. You can find used but excellent for well under $30 Grand.

If you really would like a Rigby .470, look at 1905-1915 and 1920-30 era boxlocks. They are finely built, work as well as modern, and have vintage nostalgia and panache. Lots of really nice classic English DR’s in Dangerous Game calibers that with due care will last well past your shelf date.

Look here: https://www.gunsinternational....rt_row=1&the_order=3


Where are you in Colorado? I’m on the Western Slope, South of Glenwood Springs. If you have never fired a .470 I could help you out to see if it suits you, though probably have to wait til Spring warm up.
- Mike

Or, look to a fine vintage (pre WWII) double from the UK. The fit, feel, lines, balance, and looks will far surpass anything made in Europe then or now. Although, VC makes a fine double to English lines. Also, a vintage rifle will hold it's value--like a 1967 Corvette compared to a 2019 Corvette. Buy both for $80,000 each and see what they will be worth in ten years!

I have Jack Lott's .500 nitro for sale. It's pricy but an anazing rifle owned by a well known personality, hunter, and writer. A few old photos of the rifle and game taken and I shot an elephant bull with it two years ago.

If you'd like to shoot a few doubles and are not in a hurry, after the new year I will advertise the Alaska double shoot, held yearly the first Saturday in May. All here are invited, and you also. 40-50 doubles there and everyone can shoot any they wish. We just have fun, don't compete there, don't charge for ammo, and feed you lunch. We can even plan a ride from the airport.

So, come on up, see Alaska, and shoot black powder express rifles from .450 to .577, bore rifles form 12-bore to 4-bore, and nitro doubles from .350 to .600. And a few howdah pistols and a Thompson and other machine guns, too.

Cheers,
Cal

thanks guys, I will look for new or lightly used modern.
appreciate the tip on the 450ne, After doing a little ballistic recon I see the 450 likes the 480 grain with almost the same muzzle vel as the 500 grain in the 470. the other side of that is the 470ne is much more common in Africa, just in case your ammo didn't make the trip or you run out, still a consideration

The 450 NE was first, (they just stuffed cordite into the BPE case and used jacketed bullets) but when the British banned it in India (they banned all 450 caliber guns) due to possible use by insurgents; the 470 was developed to replace it. That is why the 450 is less common. I like the 450 better as I said, and I have had 3 of them. My Searcy shoots bullets side by side about 3/4 inch apart. You probably know that DRs are regulated at 50 yards or meters.

From a budget/time standpoint I agree with getting a good used double. I would also try to find/examine/shoot as many as possible. DSC in Dallas would be a good bet for looking at what is available. I have had Merkels, Sabbatis, Chapuis, and Heyms. My personal choice has come to the Heym doubles for the following reasons.

The Heyms have a safety sear that prevents jarring off the rifle if dropped. May not seem like a big deal but I know of at least one PH that leaned his double againt a tree and it went off when it fell over. The safety sear also prevents jar off doubling unless the second trigger has actually been pulled. The Heyms are also well fitted and regulated.

My old and damaged thumb cannot reliatly "cock" the Krieghoff. However, I do like the potential safety of the Krieghoff if you can develop the muscle memory to ALWAYS decock when removing the rifle from the shoulder for anyting except reloading.

I personnaly had no real issues with the Sabbati except for VERY heavy and rough trigger pulls. Howvever, there are many threads on the reliablilty of the Sabatti you might want to look at.

My Chapuis developed ejector problems but other than that I had no problems, however; the fit and finish of the Heym seemed to be a bit better.

My Merkel double several time on me and it was not due to accidently pulling the second trigger in recoil and did not have particularly good trigger pulls. Again there are many threads on this issue with Merkels. A safety sear would have prevented this. I will add, the effect of doubling is not a dramatic as you might expect if you have a proper hold and shoulder placement.



I currently have 2 Heym 88Bs in 450NE and 470NE and a new 89B in 450NE. As the 89B will be the long term keeper than makes the 88Bs candidates for sale. If you do come to the DSC in Dallas mayby we can get together and I would be happly to let you shoot all three.

Speaking of ejectors; I positively hate them. I can load as fast with extractors and my brass does not get flung 20 feet away. One exception is the Chapius where is costs more to delete them than it does to get them.
I see guys at the range instinctively catch their brass; I guarantee that if you do that on the range, you will do it in the field, thereby obviating any advantage.
John Taylor hated them too; he said they scared the elephants, but he was trying to kill as many as possible from a herd.
Anyway, I hate them; they offer no advantage to me.

I would be looking for a VC. Either a new one or used. In my opinion, they are by far the best value for the buck and beautiful, well functioning rifles. If the issue is intercepting sears as found on the Heym, VC will add them for a minimal fee. The last time I discussed this with them, the cost was something like $350.

Contact Kebco here on AR and see what he can do for you.

As to caliber, I strongly recommend the 500NE. Very similar rifle/ammo weights, similar level of recoil, but a significant step up in performance. If you're concerned about ammo availability in Africa, it's not as common as the 470 NE for sure, but I'll bet it's a lot easier to find than 450 NE.

As others have said, your best bet is to try and handle / shoot several different makes and calibers and see what suits you best. Unlike bolt rifles, a DR is closer to a fine fitting shotgun. Little differences in the way each is built really affect their performance in YOUR specific hands.

As mentioned, the upcoming DSC convention is a good place to start.

Just make sure the VC has a splinter fore end... so that Mr Toddyboy will be satisfied..


Morten

quote:

Originally posted by huntnjim:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Just make sure the VC has a splinter fore end... so that Mr Toddyboy will be satisfied..


Morten

quote:

I currently have 2 Heym 88Bs in 450NE and 470NE and a new 89B in 450NE.

Can you post an photo sir, all three in an line?

You don't need to spend anywhere near that amount of money to get a good reliable DG double, even an English one ... and I would expand the search to include a 450-400


Item No Name Caliber Make Condition Price ea
5190 Vintage Army & Navy BLNE 470 Nitro Double RIfle Cased 470NE Army & Navy EXC $13,500.00
4429 FN Herstal B25 C1 O/U Ejector Double Rifle 470NE w extra 12ga barrels, cased 470NE, 12ga FN Pletsers Belgium EXC $19,500.00
4077 Merkel Double Rifle SLNE 470 NE 470 NE Merkel EXC $19,750.00
3497 B Searcy 470 NE BLNE "Field" Left Handed 470 NE B. Searcy EXC $10,000.00
5253 Ferlach 450NE Ejector Double Rifle 450NE Ferlach EXC $9,500.00
5158 Cased Alex Henry Hammer Double RIfle 450-3 1/4" BPE 450 BPE Alex Henry EXC $7,850.00
4737 W.J. Jeffery 450-400 Double Rifle 450-400 3" W.J. Jeffery GOOD $12,500.00
4652 Holland & Holland SLNE Double Rifle 3 Barrel Set 500/450NE, 20ga, 9.3x74R Holland & Holland EXC $39,500.00
4281 Holland & Holland SLNE 450/400 2 3/8" Double Rifle 450-400 2 3/8" BPE Holland & Holland GOOD $11,750.00

quote:

quote:I currently have 2 Heym 88Bs in 450NE and 470NE and a new 89B in 450NE. Can you post an photo sir, all three in an line?

Here are the infos (one statement, following, then two pictures from his Heyms) from mister G. S.:

Attached is a picture of the Heym 89B in 450NE. I currently do not have a picture of the Heym 88B in 470NE. As you will note comparing the pictures of the 88B vs. the 89B, the stock and receiver are differently shaped. The more open grip on the 89B prevent the trigger guard from barking the second finger on recoil. What is not as noticable is the difference in barrel contour. The 89B concentrates the weight more between the hand wihich makes is swing more naturally than the 88B

Hope they are of help.

Bockhunter, describe these 2, caliber, barrel length

first rifle is the 88B, with light engraving, (perhaps a PH2)

second rifle is the 89B with case colored receiver , upgraded wood, as well as an RMR detachable sight

notice the more open grip and redesigned/reshaped butt stock (and cheekpiece) on the second, as well as the smaller fore end

As Bockhunter noted -
you can barely but not easily see the size difference of the receiver and barrel breech's(width) on the 89 as compared to the 88

i believe the are GBS's two 450NE's

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Just make sure the VC has a splinter fore end...
[bold]so that Mr Toddyboy will be satisfied..[/Bold]


Morten

Along with 99% of double rifle owners and shooters. A fat forearm is simply a waste of fine wood, and is just plain ugly!

My Recommendation is for HEYM and VERNEY CARRON in order of what fits you better.
I have owned two lovely 470 Verney Carrons in Luxus and Imperial models and one 450NE HEYM 89 Grade 3.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Just make sure the VC has a splinter fore end...
[bold]so that Mr Toddyboy will be satisfied..[/Bold]


Morten

Along with 99% of double rifle owners and shooters. A fat forearm is simply a waste of fine wood, and is just plain ugly!

I appreciate all the good feed back here. I will be the guy at DSC hanging out by all the doubles finding a good fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Just make sure the VC has a splinter fore end...
[bold]so that Mr Toddyboy will be satisfied..[/Bold]


Morten

Along with 99% of double rifle owners and shooters. A fat forearm is simply a waste of fine wood, and is just plain ugly!

Beavertail fore-ends were developed to appeal to those who hadn't developed an appreciation for classic DR lines when interest in DRs began a resurgence 20 years or so ago. They appealed to me at first as well as I couldn't understand how a splinter fore end was adequate.

Beavertail fore ends are akin to ruining good bourbon with Coke (Whisk-Cola), or a naturally beautiful woman with bleach blond hair, fake boobs, and too much make up. Just not necessary. Maybe appealing to the uninitiated but pretty soon, you learn that a good single malt scotch with a dab of water to open the flavor or a good hearted woman with nice natural features are the real gems.

I too initially favored beaver tail forends coming from American shotguns. The above from Mr. Williams is a most astute observation.

Splinter forward is my vote.

Longest shot you should be comfortable with using a double with open sights. This would be for DG or while hunting DG and a 62” Kudu comes into view.

have shot a pig at about 200 with my 450NE-

(had been practicing using the leaf sites on a 200 yd gong)

I went through the same decision process over the last few months and ended up ordering a Heym 89b in 500NE. I highly suggest you have a chat with Chris Sells at Heym (posts here as new_guy). He can arrange for you to shoot several double rifles and let you get a better feel for what you want. PM me if you need contact info.

I strongly suggest that you shoot several calibers including the 450/400.

Is recoil a factor for you? Have you shot big boresl like 458WM, Lott, 404 Jeffery, 416 Rigby etc?

I found my limit with standard loads of 2400 fps in 416 Rigby. Increasing to 2550 fps made it really punishing for me.

Now I have a 470 NE and it is at the very limit of my ability to handle reliably. I cannot shoot more than 10 or 12 rounds in a session.

Some years ago I shot a friend's Webley 450/400 and shot it very well. Recoil is lot less than the 470NE.

I wish my VC Demas was a 450/400NE

If you are after accuracy as your first functional requirement, and should be concerned that it fits you perfectly, call Butch Searcy

https://www.searcyent.com/new_dr1.htm

the PH line is half your budget, and you can talk with Butch on your desire for a fine regulation.

I am personally a fan of all calibers, i DO suggest you fine someone(s) with a 450/400, a 450, a 470, and a 500 if you can .. in other words, shoot as many as you can .. recoil is VERY different in a double vs a bolt gun ... Jines and I were shooting my 470AccRel and his Heym 470 .. the Heym had WAY more felt recoil, to both of us.

Anyone can handle a 450/400 ... and it's a grand old caliber .. but the 450 shoot .458 bullets, and you can spend a great deal of time SHOOTING it, if you reload

beavertail vs splinter? i have coal shovels for paws .. i like a beavertail for function, a splinter for looks

splinter-
holding the barrels, best for control

Down side with a Splinter is it can get a little hot in the hand when entering the fray

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
splinter-
holding the barrels, best for control

This!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Down side with a Splinter is it can get a little hot in the hand when entering the fray

We aren't talking about shooting birds with this thing.

if in a cull or a competition
i use a leather slip-on barrel cover as with my Brit shotguns
as well- a pair of driving gloves
or similar, not overly thick, as to still manipulate the rounds

Six or eight shots in 40c will leave fingers burnt, But hey, I love splinter forends also

Here at DSC, handled several 470 and 450 doubles yesterday and today. Almost bought the Markel Tyre in a 470 1988 from George at Champlins. Gary at Rigby was also a big help. I settled on a grade 2 Heym 470 with upgraded wood for 25k, from Chris at the Heym booth. This is brand new and even threw in a German quick detach red dot. I did not think I would be interested in the red dot because I am more traditional. After throwing it up to my shoulder and quickly acquiring the large elephant picture on a banner 70 yds away from the booth I was convinced it is quick.

Let me know if you need help posting pictures. I’d love to see it.

I put a Burris FF2 red dot on my double 400 several years ago. As a traditionalist, I hesitated to do so, but the realities of age and the speed that the target can now be acquired has overcome my reticence in doing it.
Congratulations on your new gun and sight, you will enjoy them!