Gents,
Excuse my ignorance,but at what distance would you like your next rifle to be regulated? 25,50,100 or 200yrds & why?
The reason for my asking is that if I only had one gun & nothing else it would be a DR,& I would hunt all game big & small with this gun,would this be possible? say with a 470? shooting pigs @ 200 yrds & elephants @ 20 yrds?
I do realise that handloading is a must perhaps, different bullet weights for different game & ranges?
With all these hi-tech bullets coming into production,does it give us more capabilities with our guns?does it make them more versatile?

Factories regulate them at 50 or 60 meters in Europe; 50 yards here. Small calibers can be regulated at 100 meters, with a scope; that is how Chapuis does it. The bullets are supposed to hit the width of the barrels at the regulating distance and never cross, at any distance. (The acceptance standard is usually 2 inches at the regulation distance) I know, all AR DR shooters' rifles never cross and will hit anything out to 300 yards. I have found it is not that simple.
Once you try to load different bullet weights for everything from plains game to DG, then your rifle no longer will regulate at any distance. Double rifles are not that versatile; they are pretty specialized things. Especially the true DG calibers. Now, up to 9.3, yes, you can do a lot with those. Don't let this stop you from trying though.

Peter Hambrusch of Ferlach regulates his scoped doubles for 90m.
I prefer my open sighted doubles to be set for 50m. Easily and common shooting distance with open sights.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Factories regulate them at 50 or 60 meters in Europe; 50 yards here. Small calibers can be regulated at 100 meters, with a scope; that is how Chapuis does it. The bullets are supposed to hit the width of the barrels at the regulating distance and never cross, at any distance. (The acceptance standard is usually 2 inches at the regulation distance) I know, all AR DR shooters' rifles never cross and will hit anything out to 300 yards. I have found it is not that simple.
Once you try to load different bullet weights for everything from plains game to DG, then your rifle no longer will regulate at any distance. Double rifles are not that versatile; they are pretty specialized things. Especially the true DG calibers. Now, up to 9.3, yes, you can do a lot with those. Don't let this stop you from trying though.

+1 - well stated

I regularly shoot bullet weights out of two of my DR's that are different than what the guns are regulated for,1st one is a 470,I have hunted pigs & warthogs with this gun using the Speer gold dot 400 gr bullet,the 2nd one is 458 Lott,the bullet weights that I have used in this rifle,are,350,400,450&500 grs,biggest game taken is a tuskless,with a 450 NF,the guns regulate just fine.
I try for 1-2"@50 yrds & if the load will hold about 4"@100yrds,I take it hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I know, all AR DR shooters' rifles never cross and will hit anything out to 300 yards.

And that is offhand. From a rest much further shots are possible.

There is so much BS on Ar that it is incredible.It is the nature of almost everyone here.

Bill, I sense that you already had the answer before you asked it and are far more experienced at this than your question indicated.
Ignorant, you ain't.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Bill, I sense that you already had the answer before you asked it and are far more experienced at this than your question indicated.
Ignorant, you ain't.

dpcd,
maybe I should say inexperience,yes I shoot some,I enjoy reloading,much of what I have learned is from other Members of the DRSS, notably ,Mark Cash,MacD37,Tony Black,M jines,Todd Willaims,Cal Pappas, just to name a few,my first DR was a Chapuis,I am always interested in learning more about this most enjoyable hobby,my shooting only really started maybe at most ten years ago,some of the guys here including you have a long time in this,way more than me,with all the newer bullets like Cutting Edge etc add to the game,I do not understand regulation as well as some do but can & do make my rifles shoot acceptably,I know how my 470 shoots at 100 & it is regulated at 50 yrds,it would be interesting to hear from other shooters what their guns are regulated at & how they shoot past that distance.shooting lighter bullets is also something that I learned here,it is called the 75% rule,search & you will find that it has been discussed here for a long time on AR & is an acceptable practice.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Peter Hambrusch of Ferlach regulates his scoped doubles for 90m.
I prefer my open sighted doubles to be set for 50m. Easily and common shooting distance with open sights.

ozhunter,
that is interesting info,can anybody think of any pros & cons to regulating a DR at 90 m which is almost 100 yrds? as compared to 50 yards? does it increase the working range of your rifle?

Yeah, I sort of knew you were already well acquainted with the process; anyway, as you know, they are all individuals, so yes, using any of them at long ranges with different bullets is entirely feasible but may require some work. I use the 75 % rule in my .500 NE as the full loads are too much of a good thing, but I don't shoot it past 100 yards.

Ferlach regulates DRs with scopes at 90 meters, and probably, like most European makers, regulates ones with irons at 50 or 60 meters. It is hard to get good groups at 100 meters with iron sights, for me and everyone but readers here. For example, on my last Chapuis, they regulated it at 100 meters with my scope. For irons, they use 50 Meters. Especially DG calibers; it is going to be 50 meters, but that is not to say they won't shoot fine at 100, or more; ideally they will have parallel bullet paths. Not all of them do.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ozhunter:
Peter Hambrusch of Ferlach regulates his scoped doubles for 90m.
I prefer my open sighted doubles to be set for 50m. Easily and common shooting distance with open sights.[/QUOTE

hambrusch make the best sidelock and boxlock big calibre double rifles.

Judging from all the replies here,no one has open sight shooting experience.One day you will be mauled.

Gentlemen, there are three reasons this thread will not solve anything for the OP or anyone else!

No1 REGULATION of a double rifle barrel set has nothing to do with range. The targets simply have to be placed somewhere to keep track of shots.

No2 Regulation for distance has only to do with the filing of the sights or adjusting elevation dial on a scope.

No3 Once physical regulation is properly done the centers of each barrel’s individual group centers remain side by side or over and under to infinity. The centers simply do not cross! The regulator is adjusting one barrel’s CENTER of group in relation to the CENTER of the other barrels group to form a workable composite group of both barrel with the aiming point in the center of that composite group.
.................................................................

So Mac,

What do you do when you get one that crosses?

I know, I could reload, but Hornady's are so cheap. Should I re-regulate for $600?

It will be well worth the 600 dollars to get the rifle re-regulated if it crosses with Hornady ammo.
My experience with Hornady ammo is that it is nowhere near the advertised velocity in any caliber that I have run through my chronograph. If it's crossing with Hornady, then it is not regulated properly.
Just my humble .02

I have actually shot and chrono'd Hornady 470 Nitro in my Krieghoff. The average was a little over 2150. I cannot speak to other calibers, but these did perform as advertised.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
So Mac,

What do you do when you get one that crosses?

I know, I could reload, but Hornady's are so cheap. Should I re-regulate for $600?

Lavaca, no double rifle will shoot to regulation with just any load you shoot in them.

As to the bold in your post above! No fatory double rifle ammo will be as cheap and hand loading. It is my opinion that to get the best form any double rife, handloading is a must.

The load is not necessarily a bad load if you are finding two bullets crossing if you have fired only two shots.

The proper way to check a load in a double rifle for regulation is to fire two four shot groups, one group from each barrel on separate identical targets keeping track of each shot in the order it is fired, then find the CENTER of each barrel group. Overlay one target over the other and with felt tip marker mark through the holes in the top target and find the center of that target on the bottom target.

Now you have a valid starting point to see how the rifle is shooting. What you want to move is the center of each barrels group in relation to the aiming point, and to the other barrel's CENTER of group.

This is the reason the test targets that come with a double rifle are useless and tell you nothing except that two shots hit the target at a certain range. I've never seen one of those that was labeled as to what barrel each bullet was from, and are nothing but window dressing!

If the Centers are shooting wide and high, the load is too slow. If the CENTERS are crossing and low, the load is too fast.

This can be remedied by reducing the load slightly if the rifle is shooting low and crossing, or increasing the load if the rifle is hooting high and wide.

If a load cannot be found that will shoot to the regulation so the CENTERS of each barrel's individual group not remaining on it's own side of the aiming point by equal amounts as the other barrel, then more loading is needed, and /or the rifle needs to be re-regulated by a double rifle smith.

Most quality, even field grade doubles can be loaded to find the rifle's sweet spot, but if not re-regulation is the only fix.

I think what Bill was asking is how to work up a load for a double that is regulated properly, to shoot with different weights bullets not only to regulate properly but shoot flatter dawn range. That, I'm sure, can be done but it will not be an easy task. After all we a re discussing double rifles, and they are a zebra of a different stripe in the gun world, and make their own rules.
....................................................................

I think my question has been cleared up by Mac,I am kinda groggy,had surgery on my right knee on monday,but here goes,

1)Each barrel has it's own group,

2)The center of each group shooting parallel to each other is called regulation,

3)The distance does not matter,
with iron sights it is usually 50 yrds & with scopes it's farther out simply because you can see better,the added weight of the scope will also result in a different load than without,

4)yes you can shoot different bullet weights to regulation as we all know with the 75% rule,

5)How far you can shoot & with what bullet weight is simply dependent on the shooter's skill,in reloading & shooting,

6)Shooting parallel to infinity? you proabably get closer to this as, maybe the quality of the gun goes up & shooting conditions remain constant,otherwise I cannot see this happening & besides it does not matter anyways,hunting ranges are not to infinity,

that's all I can think off,anyhow I am poised at my keyboard for somebody to annoy me,the knee hurts a little & the pills are wearing off

The distance for regulation should be 100yds.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The distance for regulation should be 100yds.

And the reason is.......


465H&H

As far as shooting parallel to infinity, I think it is primarily the care of the regulator as opposed to the quality of the rifle. After all, I hear some higher quality rifles are indeed regulated to cross at a given distance, and was told this was "Continental" regulation.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The distance for regulation should be 100yds.

And the reason is.......


465H&H

I dont feel like educating you people.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Peter Hambrusch of Ferlach regulates his scoped doubles for 90m.
I prefer my open sighted doubles to be set for 50m. Easily and common shooting distance with open sights.

ozhunter,
that is interesting info,can anybody think of any pros & cons to regulating a DR at 90 m which is almost 100 yrds? as compared to 50 yards? does it increase the working range of your rifle?

I believe with a scoped double your last sentence is the case

quote:

Originally posted by MR.MASKAYEV:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ozhunter:
Peter Hambrusch of Ferlach regulates his scoped doubles for 90m.
I prefer my open sighted doubles to be set for 50m. Easily and common shooting distance with open sights.[/QUOTE

hambrusch make the best sidelock and boxlock big calibre double rifles.
my 577 gives a just under 1 inch groups at 60 meters,its a boxlock with webley screwgrip dollshead.
my 600 also a hambrusch gives a 1.3 inch group at 60 meters,very accurate and very very dependable and functional guns.

Peter Hambrusch is certainly a pleasure to do busness with!

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

ozhunter,
that is interesting info,can anybody think of any pros & cons to regulating a DR at 90 m which is almost 100 yrds? as compared to 50 yards? does it increase the working range of your rifle?

I believe with a scoped double your last sentence is the case

Bill if the rifle is regulated properly a scope can be adjusted to hit zero at any range.

Also once regulated properly physically, one can simply file the standing sight at what ever range he wants, and the down range sights to zero at longer ranges, because the only thing that is effected is elevation, all the irons will have a common windage, just cut for longer or shorter range!

The barrels are physically regulated to shoot side by side not range!

Mac,Oz,
thanks all makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The distance for regulation should be 100yds.

And the reason is.......


465H&H

I dont feel like educating you people.

We don't expect you to educate us, just to give us another chuckle!


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
I think my question has been cleared up by Mac,I am kinda groggy,had surgery on my right knee on monday,but here goes,

1)Each barrel has it's own group,

2)The center of each group shooting parallel to each other is called regulation,

3)The distance does not matter,
with iron sights it is usually 50 yrds & with scopes it's farther out simply because you can see better,the added weight of the scope will also result in a different load than without,

4)yes you can shoot different bullet weights to regulation as we all know with the 75% rule,

5)How far you can shoot & with what bullet weight is simply dependent on the shooter's skill,in reloading & shooting,

6)Shooting parallel to infinity? you proabably get closer to this as, maybe the quality of the gun goes up & shooting conditions remain constant,otherwise I cannot see this happening & besides it does not matter anyways,hunting ranges are not to infinity,

that's all I can think off,anyhow I am poised at my keyboard for somebody to annoy me,the knee hurts a little & the pills are wearing off

Pretty much spot on except no. 6. I've found that for the most part, if the rifle is regulated properly, you can find a load that will shoot parallel, or close to it, out to any reasonable range you are likely to shoot. A good example is that little Chapuis 9.3x74R of mine. You know, the one without OSR that has only fired mono metal bullets!

Anyway, that rifle really didn't like having a Trijicon scope added to it. Others have had different experiences but mine went from shooting almost anything I fed it with open sights, to not really shooting anything well with the scope. But I kept working with it and after about 14 load combinations, I found one that it will shoot parallel for pretty much whatever range. I took an impala for bait with it in late 2013 at 267 yards. Posted a video of it somewhere here on AR. I doubt I'd shoot much farther than that with the rifle / load but it demonstrates that fine tuning the load to the gun, especially through handloading, assuming the gun was regulated properly in the first place, can pay real dividends. If you're shooting factory fodder, and only willing to stick with that one brand / load, there isn't much you can do to improve how it shoots short of having the rifle re-regulated with that specific ammo. Even then, you'll be at the mercy of that company's future decisions concerning changing the load / bullet design, etc.

When you are checking regulation of barrels and accuracy does it matter if there is a around or not in the other barrel. Obviously usually one would shoot
The right and then the left and the right is empty. But what if one shoots each barrel without another round in the opposite? Is the inertia of a round enough to affect accuracy in a large bore?

Yes, loading only one barrel instead of both may influence POI. Same goes for shooting one barrel before the other. The norm is right/under 1st, followed by left/over. Everything that alters mass, balance, barrel(s) heat/expansion is liable to induce a different behaviour of the rifle.

Cannot the administrator put trolls on universal ignore mode?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
You know, the one without OSR that has only fired mono metal bullets!

......................................................................

Bravo for ignoring the troll

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
I think my question has been cleared up by Mac,I am kinda groggy,had surgery on my right knee on monday,but here goes,

1)Each barrel has it's own group,

2)The center of each group shooting parallel to each other is called regulation,

3)The distance does not matter,
with iron sights it is usually 50 yrds & with scopes it's farther out simply because you can see better,the added weight of the scope will also result in a different load than without,

4)yes you can shoot different bullet weights to regulation as we all know with the 75% rule,

5)How far you can shoot & with what bullet weight is simply dependent on the shooter's skill,in reloading & shooting,

6)Shooting parallel to infinity? you proabably get closer to this as, maybe the quality of the gun goes up & shooting conditions remain constant,otherwise I cannot see this happening & besides it does not matter anyways,hunting ranges are not to infinity,

that's all I can think off,anyhow I am poised at my keyboard for somebody to annoy me,the knee hurts a little & the pills are wearing off

Pretty much spot on except no. 6. I've found that for the most part, if the rifle is regulated properly, you can find a load that will shoot parallel, or close to it, out to any reasonable range you are likely to shoot. A good example is that little Chapuis 9.3x74R of mine. You know, the one without OSR that has only fired mono metal bullets!

Anyway, that rifle really didn't like having a Trijicon scope added to it. Others have had different experiences but mine went from shooting almost anything I fed it with open sights, to not really shooting anything well with the scope. But I kept working with it and after about 14 load combinations, I found one that it will shoot parallel for pretty much whatever range. I took an impala for bait with it in late 2013 at 267 yards. Posted a video of it somewhere here on AR. I doubt I'd shoot much farther than that with the rifle / load but it demonstrates that fine tuning the load to the gun, especially through handloading, assuming the gun was regulated properly in the first place, can pay real dividends. If you're shooting factory fodder, and only willing to stick with that one brand / load, there isn't much you can do to improve how it shoots short of having the rifle re-regulated with that specific ammo. Even then, you'll be at the mercy of that company's future decisions concerning changing the load / bullet design, etc.

Todd,
did you chrono the new loads? were they faster or slower than the factory loads that the gun was regulated for?

Bill, I did run them through a Chrony but I've slept at least a couple times since then and don't remember the exact numbers. That said, the current load that shoots well in that rifle is very close to design velocities or "factory" ammo. That was one of my "requirements" for declaring the load acceptable ... i.e. shooting close to parallel within a shade of design velocity. I don't believe a load that shoots parallel at the expense of 300fps or so below design velocity to be acceptable. One of the great benefits of handloading!!

Todd,
the reason for my asking was this,you added a scope & increased the weight of the barrels,this resulted in a new setting & speed for the regulating load yes? so did the increase in barrel weight result in increased velocity for the regulating load or decreased velocity?
I added weight to the forearm of one of my DR'S,my regulating load went up about two grains of powder,however I have added weight to another DR but this time in the buttstock & nothing changed,the load stayed the same,I am wondering if there is something to be learned here? wonder if others here have noticed anything like this with their rifles?

When you modify the mass of a DR, i.e. scope mounting, stock change, etc., you're not modifying velocity (how could you ?). What you do instead, and that is paramount however often forgotten, is modifying BARREL TIME (= the length of time a bullet travels through a barrel moving under recoil). That is the key in DR regulating. You have to keep this in mind when handloading : barrels that shoot apart mean a too lengthy barrel time (bullet too slow or too heavy) and crossing barrels point at the opposite (too fast ot too light). Knowing this allows you to correct bullets/powders accordingly. It also underlines that each DR is regulated for one and only bullet weight / velocity combination (exceptions do exist but are rare). You either buy the "regulation" ammo or try and reproduce the same barrel(s) harmony, taming bullet weight and velocity.

In the example you describe, you added weight to the forearm, increasing the total mass of the rifle. Hence it moved slower in recoil and ,no you didn't increase velocity, but you lengthened barrel time which in turn, let the bullet exit later out of each barrel, making them shoot apart. You then had to add powder to accelerate the bullets and make them exit earlier and reproduce the original barrel time. Adding weight to the buttstock as compared to the forend influences barrels behaviour a lot less. Up to a point, that is ; add more weight (replacing with a new and denser stock, for instance) and you're likely to reproduce the same scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Todd,
so did the increase in barrel weight result in increased velocity for the regulating load or decreased velocity?

Bill I understand your question was to Todd, and he did have a real time getting his rifle to shoot properly after mounting the scope.

The reason was the addition of a scope and mounts will not effect the speed of the load you are using.
The reason it changes the point of impact is because the weight of the scope and mounts is above the barrels and depending on the weight of the scope and mounts and how high it is mounted, this tends to retard the natural muzzle FLIP.

When a side by side double rifle is fired the barrel being fired tends to move away from the other barrel and up at a different amount than it did when fired without the weight.

When a properly regulated double rifle with the iron sights pointed at the aiming point on the target, the right barrels line of sight will actually be pointed at a place on the target that is low, and on the left. As the recoil flips the muzzles that barrel will move up and to the right, and when the bullet exits the muzzle it will be pointed at where the sight was pointed when the trigger was pulled, and vice-versa for the left barrel.

When weight is added to the top of the barrel set depending on how heavy the scope and mounts are and how high they are above the barrels the more or less the muzzle flip will be retarded so that the bullets hits the target differently than it did from the barrels without the extra weight. The velocity of the load will not be changed, but the muzzle flip will!

When mounting a scope on a s/s double rifle it should be as light and as low as it can be and still line up with eye, and as strong as it can be to take the punishment of the recoil of the rifle being used!

Todd put in a lot of time, powder and bullets to find a load speed that would overcome the adding of his scope. In his case he found a good load that let him shoot a wart hog right between the eyes at some distance with that rifle!

I'm about to get into the same situation because I now must mount glass sights on all my doubles because of an eye problem.

Good luck Bill!