Good day, gents.
I thought I knew a bit about double rifles. I have two books out (the .600 Nitro Express and The British Bore Rifle) with a third at the printers (the Double Rifle Primer). In addition, several dozen magazine articles and a fairly popular website (calpappas.com) and a question and answer column in the African Hunter magazine (Cal on Doubles). So, with that limited experience I was set back a bit by what I learned at Cabela's Gun Library in the new Anchorage store.

I visited the store to see if there were any quality rifles and guns in the Gun Library (there were none). I noticed a Chapuis double in 9.3 x 74R for $7500 and began to talk doubles to two of the gents there. I learned they sold a Merkel .470 for $12000 a few weeks prior and it only stayed on the shelf less than two weeks. Seeing there may be a market for doubles, and wanting to sell a few of my collection I mentioned four of my rifles and they invited me to bring them in for an appraisal and possible purchase (they do not sell on commission).

The first two I brought in were a Watson Brothers .500 best quality double owned my Jack Lott. The second was a W&C Scott .475 no2 side lock ejector, in near unfired condition and with internal parts gold plated. A short while later I brought in one of my 8-bores (Walter Locke) and my 4-bore (Robert Hughes). I learned that while newer production doubles may not be of the quality of a vintage English double they are in more demand thereby giving them a higher financial value.

Here are two emails to me:

"Hello Mr. Pappas,
This is ------- from the Cabela’s Gun Library in Anchorage, Alaska.  We spoke last week about the possible buy of your Watson Bros. Box lock in .500 N.E. that was owned by Jack Lott.  I have spoken to the Gun Library Manager and we are prepared to offer you $ 10,000 for the rifle. We would be passing on the W C Scott side lock in .475 #2.
 
I would recommend that in the selling of these two rifles that you contact either Rock Island Auction House or Love John Auctions.  Both of these Auction houses have extensive knowledge as well as experience in the selling of English Double rifles and would be a good choice. 
Best Regards,"
 
And a follow up email:

"Mr. Pappas,
I’m sorry to inform you of the bad news regarding the .500.  We believe the used retail value of the .500 is about $12,000, with the WC Scott slightly above that.  The British double rifle market is just at an all-time low at this point.  We would love to see both the 8 bore and 4 bore that you have, but on the other hand the market for those is very limited and we would be in the same place as both of the double rifles you brought in.  If would like we can discuss this further either over the phone or in person here at the Gun Library. 
Best regards,"

When I brought in the 8 and 4 the manager suggested I not even bring them in the store as he was not interested as they were novelties and would be difficult in selling them. He suggested I put them, and other doubles I had, on Gunbroker.com.

So there you have it. At first I thought I was offered such a low figure as the typical gun room personnel trying to screw a potential seller. After all, many who deal in guns are from the same primitive gene pool that used car salesmen are derived from. However, from passing on the .475 and not even wanting to see the 8 and 4 I can only make two conclusions: either they don't know double rifles at all or they do and were being square with me as to their value and not being desirable to sell in the Gun Library.

The assistant manager who wrote the two emails did tell me he owns a Sabatti .500. Damn! I should have invested in Sabatti when I had the opportunity and passed on the English doubles.

It sure taught me a lesson about my knowledge of double rifles and their value.
Cheers gents,
Cal
PS. I forgot to ask if either of them were acquainted with Shootaway. 
 
 

Cal, I wouldn't question their expertise...they just passed Firearms Retailing 101 :-)

Cal, I have a Sabatti in .450 3 1/4" that I will trade you heads up for the W&C Scott. You made the mistake of passing on investing in Sabatti once, don't make the same mistake twice. I will sit by the phone waiting for your call to confirm shipping details.

Simple business deal. Buy low, sell high. The problem they ran into is that you are not hungry enough to part with the rifles. They have a real pawn store mentality.

Cabelas Gun Library is an odd duck. I've been looking at a nice side-by-side 28ga with 29" barrels for over two years at the same location. I wanted to shoot the gun while I am waiting on the delivery of my Zeigenhahn & Sohns 28ga SxS. The shotgun is priced at a premium with a less than interesting stock. I asked about taking it off their hands for less than the asking price and they just smiled and said no. I just laughed and wished them a great year carrying the inventory.

the gun library in buda, tx is not much better... they had a browning lighnting 12 ga with 4 sets of sub-guage inserts for $1400... when I looked at it, the top barrel would not fire.. they knew it, took my offer of $850... dried hard grease was the culprit...

Well Cal, I do not have your knowledge of double rifles, but they said I believe, that there was a limited market for double rifles in Anchorage Alaska, gave you the name of two auction houses and suggested Gun Broker. I share their belief that there is a limited market for 8 and 4 bore guns. Do you disagree? They are I believe in the retail business which involves selling stuff for more than you paid for it.
I have no experience in selling guns to Cabelas. I have, on occasion, tried buying guns that they had for sale for several months, at a somewhat lower price than what they were asking. I was unsuccessful! Not sure what conclusions I can draw from those experiences!
Peter.

Cabelas might be the worst!!! They had a few good people when they started but most have moved on...the Buda store manager does not know shit about guns, I listened to About 5 min of his sh&t one day and moved on...I go in and politely offer on something I am interested in...if they take it good...if they don't I walk.

Ed

Oh Cal I'd give you $12.5k....

Hey Cal, did you get a GUN LIBRARY diploma with that education? If so now you can actually write articles with the proper credentials.

The problem with this is you will now have to have all your books edited and re-printed!

...................................................................

the one in Boise has staff that apparently went to the same school.

I had a very clean Wildey Mag in 45 WM, with two spare magazines and about six hundred rounds of solids and softpoints (factory) I was thinking about trading for a nice OM 70 target in 308W.

They were asking $1250 for their rifle, and I thought we might trade square. They did have one at a Texas store, asking price for just the pistol was $1650. No extras.

I suggested mine was a much better deal considering the extras, and they countered with an offer of $600 trade for the Wildey.

I then suggested they look at their inventory, and compare values.

They told me then, that because they already had one in inventory, they really did not want mine.

That's when I came to the conclusion that they were generally, as my wise old Grandfather was wont to say; "penny wise and dollar foolish...".

I've never been able to talk trade with them.

I'll drop in to the Allen, Texas store whenever I have court not far away. They "salesmen" normally ignore me, which I don't mind at all, but they are in the office BSing with each other.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Cal, I do not have your knowledge of double rifles, but they said I believe, that there was a limited market for double rifles in Anchorage Alaska, gave you the name of two auction houses and suggested Gun Broker. I share their belief that there is a limited market for 8 and 4 bore guns. Do you disagree? They are I believe in the retail business which involves selling stuff for more than you paid for it.
I have no experience in selling guns to Cabelas. I have, on occasion, tried buying guns that they had for sale for several months, at a somewhat lower price than what they were asking. I was unsuccessful! Not sure what conclusions I can draw from those experiences!
Peter.

They tried to rape him plain and simple. No excuses needed.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Cal, I have a Sabatti in .450 3 1/4" that I will trade you heads up for the W&C Scott. You made the mistake of passing on investing in Sabatti once, don't make the same mistake twice. I will sit by the phone waiting for your call to confirm shipping details.

Don't feel bad, I had a couple of their managers offer me $750 for an old original Model 12 in 20 ga with solid rib....and a second full Skeet barrel set with wood and all!! Infuriating!! I walked.

HA, Ha...same guys later bought a "custom Mauser" in 257 Weaby. with no scope on it. Fellow had purchased the rifle at the local gunshow for $950, took off the desired Leupold 6-20x scope and took it down for sale to Gun Library. The "expert" offered him $1250, seller said nothing....then backed off and said, that is a nice "custom" I suppose you want more! How about $1500?.....and finally he trumped his offer, I'll give you $1750 for your rifle!!
Seller walked out with a big SMILE!!...didn't look back.

Go Figure....those experts were not seen on later visits!!

Remember my old comments on doubles pricing and the "Cabela's Double Bubble"....when that hit the wall, the bean counters made them dump the inventory...I think they are still smarting from that experience??

Cheers,

I've collected doubles since I was about 17. When I was maybe 19 I brought in a FN fully engraved sidelock with ejectors. They offered me $200 for it. I think they assumed it was a family gun I knew nothing about and thought they could steal it. I offered to buy all the true sidelocks they had for less than $500- didn't get any response to that.

I'm surprised that they didn't charge him for the quotes!

I was asked about what I wanted to sell my Rigby Shot & Ball for and I said "7"(meaning 7000USD!.
The guy said. "seven hundred is too much". .

I guess one can not expect everybody to be knowledgable about certain items and price assesment.

No different than most retailers. They did offer some good advice.
I'd put your guns on GunsInternational or maybe GunBroker. Or consign them with a specialty gun store like Champlins, Steve Barnett, Cook & Winston, Hallowell, etc. Or maybe a prominant auction house like James Julia. Julia often gets top dollar retail and does not charge a seller commission for more expensive guns.

Retail sellers purchase at wholesale or less whenever they can. Not sure why you'd get your panties in a bunch over the industry's biggest retailer attempting to buy low and sell high. If they were to pay you what you could sell the gun for, where is the profit for them? Those big ole stores don't stay open for cheap. I've offered a potential seller a low number many times just to see where the market is in the seller's mind, or just what they are willing to take for something. MY standard offer is 20% of what I think it could sell for, and negotiate up from there. Most sellers think you are just too dumb to know the actual value and don't take offense.

I am not sure that the issue Cal was attempting to raise was their desire to buy low and sell high, most of us can appreciate that business model, I took the issue to be more that they did not understand what they were doing and what they were actually looking at. Like going into the hardware store and ending up with a clerk that does not understand the difference between a sheet metal screw and a wood screw. But perhaps I did not get the gist of Cal's comments.

Mike:
You are correct in your observations, as usual. It was not an issue of buy low and sell to make a profit, it was the absolute stupidity of two gents in charge of gun sales and purchases and the outlet of a huge chain.
Cal

You didn't seriously expect guys who work for any mass retailer to know as much as a world renowned double rifle expert, did you? I spend a lot of time at gun shops answering questions; there is no minimum gun knowledge requirement to work there. If they were experts in anything, they would not be working at Cabelas.

I really enjoyed reading this thread and I too would readily pay you their prices for your doubles - with a smile and a thank you sir.

Bit like taking a 1960s Jaguar E Type to the corner car lot.

On the other hand being a European living in Africa, I really do envy you guys your stores like Cabelas and Bass Pro Shop and even Walmart ! There is nothing similar in Europe let alone Africa where there are thousands if not millions of items under one roof over hundreds of square meters of space and with free parking !

One (of the many) thing(s) I have learned living in Africa, is not to expect too much of people !

HA....right ON...I had two Hawkish Range Officers standing behind me at the range the other day while getting ready to sight my newly acquired 405 Win Double....one says to me..."Are you going to fire slugs in that??" I responded, no, regular shells. He says, "you can't fire that on the rifle range"....I said WHAT?? and handed him the box of shiny Winchester Teddy Roosevelt commemorative rounds...he says..."OH, I've never seen one of those!!" Yep curly gray hair and a "trained" Range Officer at the local gun club....never seen or heard of a DOUBLE!!...and of course has no idea of value??!!@@##*****

Cheers,

I must say that I have a couple of friends that have made some very good buys from different various Cabelas Gun Librarys.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
HA....right ON...I had two Hawkish Range Officers standing behind me at the range the other day while getting ready to sight my newly acquired 405 Win Double....one says to me..."Are you going to fire slugs in that??" I responded, no, regular shells. He says, "you can't fire that on the rifle range"....I said WHAT?? and handed him the box of shiny Winchester Teddy Roosevelt commemorative rounds...he says..."OH, I've never seen one of those!!" Yep curly gray hair and a "trained" Range Officer at the local gun club....never seen or heard of a DOUBLE!!...and of course has no idea of value??!!@@##*****

Cheers,

Same exact things happens to me at our range here in jacksonville. I just ignore them and they get irate and when they come forward to give me shit, I just hold up a cartridge in the iar without taking my face of the stock and carry on. idjits..

The Lehi Gun Library manager offered me $200 for a pre-64 mod 70 30-06 that was pristine. Seems to me they don't know their @$$ from a hole in the wall.

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:
The Lehi Gun Library manager offered me $200 for a pre-64 mod 70 30-06 that was pristine. Seems to me they don't know their @$$ from a hole in the wall.

I think your story is much like mine. They may not be experts, but they know enough to give a fair offer, and they tried to screw you, as they did me. Just my opinion.

I think we all need to realize that, despite their "homestyle and personal" PR thrust, Cabela's long, long ago outgrew their homey roots. They are now big business and have trouble hiring knowledgable people for their main store floor let alone the Gun Library. Some of the folks are good, some bad.

Also, most of the folks who contribute here on AR are at the far,far right end of the gun savvy bell curve. We need to take that into account when we encounter these situations.

As far as the rest of Cal's deal, we all want to buy low and sell high. I don't go into Cabela's or any other store and offer to pay more on an item if they are priced below market. We all have and tell our stories of where and when we found a smokin' deal or talked someone down on the price of an item. Just a part of life we all share.

HA...Yes I have a story too....friend and also the General Counsel for the Public School district and avid African hunter and double collector cruised into the local Cabela's store and spotted a beautiful 20 ga Italian Shotgun, brand new with hanging tags...priced at what he thought was probably 50% of the retail price...HE BOUGHT IT!!

You should have heard the Manager of the Gun Library saw it clear the inventory and the BIG RED NUMBERS in the Profit and Loss oolumn!!

A knowledgeable cashier in the Gun Dept doing the NICS Check and payment should have caught this!! Goes to show you what lack of trained people can cost you.....in this case $3500-4K!!
Cheers,

I had a similar experience at Bass Pro.
They had a gun I was interested in so I brought in a Westley Richards '97 falling block to see if we could work a trade.
First thing their "expert" did was grab his copy of Blue Book of Gun Values. Of course it isn't in there so, not being interested in educating the guy, I walked.

Cal,

I empathize with your predicament. I'm willing to go even up for your 500NE for Joyce's 450/400. I saw the gleam in your eye and the blush on your cheek (the one recently whopped by the stock) after you shot it. If you want the Oak & Leather case with it you will need to throw in the .475 #2

Best always
Jim

I was in the same Cabelas a couple of weeks ago and looked at the Chapuis. I only handled it cause it was the only double there. The fella that showed me the rifle gave me a strange look when I asked what bullet the rifle was regulated for - seems he'd never heard of regulation...

Cal, I've been in the Anchorage Gun room a few times and not to be too insulting, I was underwhelmed with their expertise. I don't have your extensive knowledge, but the "wisdom" dispensed regarding doubles, shotgun or rifles, was amateur.

I heard one sales guy talk about "handmade double barreled shotgun made in the famous gun valley of Massachusetts". I thought he must have been mistaken and was referring to a CSMC double. Nope, some Turkish made shotgun with a "Scott" name I'd never heard of.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Cal,

I empathize with your predicament. I'm willing to go even up for your 500NE for Joyce's 450/400. I saw the gleam in your eye and the blush on your cheek (the one recently whopped by the stock) after you shot it. If you want the Oak & Leather case with it you will need to throw in the .475 #2

Best always
Jim

What are friends for?
Truly an unselfish offer.
Cal

Hi There guy's.
I think you are all missing something here. I live in Phoenix and go into the gun library whenever I wander into the local Cabelas.

These employee's are in a room with perhaps 600 firearms? The Phoenix room is pretty full.

If I were the boss, I would prefer they be knowledgeable about the 599 firearms and not worry so much about 1-3 DR's. That's what the Phoenix room has in stock usually.

I have watched them handle bolt guns and fine shotguns, they seem to be able to get through a sale OK.

This forum specifically is full of nothing but DR nuts. There isn't a retail shop anywhere with the knowledge of DR's that is assembled here. I think Cabelas does a pretty good job for our "normal" interests.

Steve

I think you are missing an important fact. You are reading on AR about double rifles. I am sure you are knowledgable and interested in firearms. Remember the large percentage of Cabelas shoppers don't know the difference between a Mossburg and a Purdy.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana1:
I think you are missing an important fact. You are reading on AR about double rifles. I am sure you are knowledgable and interested in firearms. Remember the large percentage of Cabelas shoppers don't know the difference between a Mossburg and a Purdy.

I don't know if you're directing that at me. If you are, we are in agreement. There really shouldn't be a very high expectation of DR experts at Cabelas.

Oops, my mistake. It was a "Dickenson" - again, the employee claimed it was "hand made in the Gun Valley (i.e., the Connecticut River Valley). The importer (stamped on the side of the barrel) is in Billerica, MA.

http://www.cabelas.com/product...6recordsPerPage%3D40

Not everyone can be an expert in everything, but damn, don't make it up!

Seems the Gun library employees also suffer the same affliction!
With them 'playing the game' so hard of buy low sell high, you would think they would move a bit on some of the guns they have bought at a basement price.
I would never sell a gun to a retailer, but I might buy more if they were not 20 to 50 % overpriced on what they wanted to sell.