Doublers,

What is the .458 [flanged] ballistic equivalent of the .458 Lott (2250-2300/fps for a 500gr projectile)?

Well, I sure don't know of one

the 450 3 1/4 will do nicely and not let you down.

Eric
Original ballistics for the three 450 Nitro Expresses are a 480 grain bullet at 2150 to 2175 fps in a 28" bbl.

Field ballistics in the average 24 to 26" bbl double 450 rifle are @2100 to 2150 fps.

I have taken eland, giraffe, 2 cape buff, and 5 elephants with a 450 No2 and these ballistics with perfect results.

The 480 Woodleigh Solids, and 450 North Fork Solid Flat Points and Cup Points, and the 480 Woodleigh Softs and the 500gr Swift A Frame Softs have performed perfectly.

It is my opinion that a 450 to 500gr. 458 bullet at @2050 to 2200fps is plenty good enough for any animal on the Planet.

At least it has been for me.

There isn't one, nor is there any need for one. Keep in mind that the Lott wasn't created because the .450/.470 Nitro group weren't getting the job done at 2,075 fps to 2,150 fps. Those cartridges were pretty much gone at the time. The Lott was created because the .458 wasn't getting the job done at 1,900 fps - the velocity commonly obtained from factory ammo of the day.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thanks men, much appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
There isn't one, nor is there any need for one. Keep in mind that the Lott wasn't created because the .450/.470 Nitro group weren't getting the job done at 2,075 fps to 2,150 fps. Those cartridges were pretty much gone at the time. The Lott was created because the .458 wasn't getting the job done at 1,900 fps - the velocity commonly obtained from factory ammo of the day.
"

True, and even the 458LOTT works best at the balistics of the old 450NE 3 1/4"! I load mine down to those balistics! So I would say the 450NE 3 1/4" in a double rifle is better than a full house 458 LOTT in a bolt rifle, for the intended purpose of both cartridges, stopping something at close range!

"I have used a .458 Winchester for over 10 Years for Ele's,backing up clients and for following sick, dangerous game into the pucker brush. For me it always did what one would expect of a 500 grain .45-caliber solid- it tended to put big,bloody holes all or most of the way through any animal"
"Given good handloads or appropriate loads there is nothing I would rather have in my sweaty paws,in a hairy situation with dangerous game,than My Winchester M-70 or my old Westley Richards in .458 Winchester Magnum"..
Finn Aagaard

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:
Doublers,

What is the .458 [flanged] ballistic equivalent of the .458 Lott (2250-2300/fps for a 500gr projectile)?

short answer, there isn't one. basically "all" of the ~500gr bullets are launched at ~2150.

jeffe

Akrange
I hope this isn't off subject. I also like my .458 but I seem to be plagued with some old African freinds who seem to think the carteidge is unreliable. This probably was true early on due to some improper powders in the early factory loads. The same thing happend to the .338 in Alaska during the first couple of years after it's introdution.
Have you ever experianced a problem with the .458 or know anyone who still holds this negitive opinion of the .458

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Akrange
I hope this isn't off subject. I also like my .458 but I seem to be plagued with some old African freinds who seem to think the carteidge is unreliable. This probably was true early on due to some improper powders in the early factory loads. The same thing happend to the .338 in Alaska during the first couple of years after it's introdution.
Have you ever experianced a problem with the .458 or know anyone who still holds this negitive opinion of the .458

As akrange says there is nothing wrong with the 458 Win Mag with proper handloads, and proper bullets.

That, however, was not the question asked! The question was what flanged cartridge closely matches the 458 LOTT for a double rifle! As Jeffe states, there simply isn't one, nor is one needed. The 458 LOTT was brought out because the 458 Win Mag was unreliable, back when new. The case capacity of the LOTT allowed the cartridge to produce what the 458 WM was advertized to do, but didn't. As I said, the 458 LOTT doesn't need it's full power, and is better loaded down to what the 458 WM was meant to do. The 450NE 3 1/4" is the nearest thing to a proper .458 cartridge for a double rifle, and neither of the other .458 wm, or Lott are suitable for use in a double rifle.

Let's not get excited, and go off half-cocked, and start a crap-fest, the 458 WM, with propper loads, in a good CRF bolt rifle, or the 458 LOTT, in the same thing are fine cartridges, but in a double rifle the 450NE 3 1/4" is better than either of them, for the pucker bush!

Thanks again, men. If anyone ever has a "double" round up here in California, I'm going to need to be there. That is, of course, as long a California doesn't ban them as "semiautomatic" rifles.

I have almost zero African experience, but I nontheless would assert that the .450 3 1/4 is superior to any of the other various .450, .465, .470, .475 loads simply because it makes up into a double that is slenderer across the breeches.

Butch Searcy will regulate the 470 for a 500 grain bullet at 2,250 fps. That is probably as close as you can come to the Lott in a double rifle caliber.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Butch Searcy will regulate the 470 for a 500 grain bullet at 2,250 fps. That is probably as close as you can come to the Lott in a double rifle caliber.

465H&H

You're right! However, the 470 is not a .458!

Teat hound asked,

quote:

What is the .458 [flanged] ballistic equivalent of the .458 Lott (2250-2300/fps for a 500gr projectile)?

I really can't think of one closer thsn a 450NE 3 1/4", or the 450#2 NE

quote:

465H&H: Butch Searcy will regulate the 470 for a 500 grain bullet at 2,250 fps. That is probably as close as you can come to the Lott in a double rifle caliber.

I suppose Butch could do the same thing with a 450 NE or 450#2. In a big case like the #2, I would think the pressure would still be fairly low. [Quikload estimates 450NE pressure 44K, 500 grains @ 2260]

My post was of a Educative Query..I'm a Student here.. I will be honest..There are still alot of High End Rifle makers chambering rifles for the .458 WM..Both doubles and bolt..The .458 WM may not be a good pick for a double but none the less it still has life as a Dangerous Game Round.. When the Shit hits the fan in the Pucker Brush..Can I get a Amen Brothers..
AK

quote:

Originally posted by akrange:
My post was of a Educative Query..I'm a Student here.. I will be honest..There are still alot of High End Rifle makers chambering rifles for the .458 WM..Both doubles and bolt..The .458 WM may not be a good pick for a double but none the less it still has life as a Dangerous Game Round.. When the Shit hits the fan in the Pucker Brush..Can I get a Amen Brothers..
AK

You are absolutely correct on the 458WM if properly loaded, but not in a double rifle! No rimless, or belted rimless cartridge should ever be used in a double rifle that will be used for the takeing of dangerous game! It isn't the power of the cartridge, but the fact that tiny little palls are used for the extraction of the empties. These little things are prone to breakage, and are made inoperable by a little dust! Addtionally the cartridges, in many cases have to be manually pushed into the chambers, becausr they will sometimes jump the palls, and when the rifle is closed it breaks the pall. These are conditions you don't want, or need in a dangerous game double. When one of these things happens to you in a tight spot, and your next words are, "DAMN! I wish I had bought a double with a flanged cartridge insead of this thing!" That's when you will get your AMEN, brother!

Simply because the makers make them, doesn't make it a good idea. At the price of even a good working double rifle, they are not going to turn down a customer's request, for a cartridge he wants. Some makers chamber there junk push feed rifles for dangerous game cartridges, but that doesn't make it a good idea, any more than a rimless cartridge in a DGR double! My advice is, if you want to hunt witha 458 WM, then select a good CRF bolt rifle for that cartridge, and stay away from double rifles. Of course it is your choice, and your butt on the line!
DO YO THANG!

I seem to remember that a few years back there was an article in Gun Digest (I think) on a german gunsmith that was producing double rifles for his own line of flanged cartridges. One was a 450 caliber that pushed 500 grain bullets over 2,300 fps. Any one have a better memory than me?

465H&H

What you have just witnessed is a "Big Mac Attack"..And He was Hungry... All I have left is my Broken Palls.. May I rest in Peace..Amen
P.S. A well Know Double Gunsmith who is working on My .458 WM Double right now talked me out of making it into a 450 3 1/4 because it was to Mech. Sound and No gain.. I think we'll have that talk again..
AK

Actually, Mac is right. The makers chamber for belted magnums because they don't have a choice, not because it's a good idea. Sure, they work fine, right up until they don't. I've had extraction failures with too many. Your 'smith was wrong, gaining a rim is worth more than the cost of the conversion.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by akrange:
What you have just witnessed is a "Big Mac Attack"..And He was Hungry... All I have left is my Broken Palls.. May I rest in Peace..Amen
P.S. A well Know Double Gunsmith who is working on My .458 WM Double right now talked me out of making it into a 450 3 1/4 because it was to Mech. Sound and No gain.. I think we'll have that talk again..
AK

Gulp- My CZ489 stopper now in .458 Lott is unreliable? Gee after over 1000 rds with perfect extraction all I can expect is sudden failure? Wow I'd better get going on the screw on Rim conversion of the .458 lott pronto! Sure this isn't just a scam to get me to sell it? Last two hunting trips with it I just barely managed to get it home with me. The true believers somehow became convinced. Very quickly in fact when they first held and shot it.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Gulp- My CZ489 stopper now in .458 Lott is unreliable? Gee after over 1000 rds with perfect extraction all I can expect is sudden failure? Wow I'd better get going on the screw on Rim conversion of the .458 lott pronto! Sure this isn't just a scam to get me to sell it? Last two hunting trips with it I just barely managed to get it home with me. The true believers somehow became convinced. Very quickly in fact when they first held and shot it.-Rob

You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make him think.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Gulp- My CZ489 stopper now in .458 Lott is unreliable? Gee after over 1000 rds with perfect extraction all I can expect is sudden failure? Wow I'd better get going on the screw on Rim conversion of the .458 lott pronto! Sure this isn't just a scam to get me to sell it? Last two hunting trips with it I just barely managed to get it home with me. The true believers somehow became convinced. Very quickly in fact when they first held and shot it.-Rob

Good one Rob, and you are right of course, so far!

There are guys who have driven drunk,for their whole lives,without getting cought, or killing themselves,or someone else. Then there are others who do it one time,and it happens! Only God knows which group the user of an O/U double rifle,chambered for a belted rimless, high pressure cartridge, will be in after only one encounter, or after 50 encounters!

The FLANGED round in question is called the .450 ASSEGAI.

It is the name of the Zulu stabbing spear which is used

in close combat, hense a fitting name. In the A-SQAURE

manual it is described in detail starting at page 558 and

it DOES match up to the better LOTT performance numbers.

It is the 500/416 brass necked open to .458 and it is an Art

Alphin design. I would bet that 400NitroExpress would not

approve of it's pressure levels for a typical double rifle.

Though the pressure readings are about the same as 450/400.

So perhaps I should retract my reference to 400NitroExpress...

2300 FPS is not needed in a 500 or 480 or 450 grain .458 caliber

bullet when using a double rifle. The proof is the number of

elephant, rhino and buff kills that have occured in the 20th

century using such bullets at 2100 FPS [more or less] with .458"

diameter bullets and its close companion bullets like the .474" etc.