Rusty, well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Rusty, well said.

Rusty is absolutely correct in this case and on many other subjects as well.

Even if the only type of rifle you like is a double rifle, there is no need to wait two or three years for one to be built to your specifications, when there are plenty of classics in fine shape that you can buy for the same or less money that fit you, and you can walk out the door with them once you lay your money on the counter! Top that off with there being plenty of newly made off the shelf double rifles and semicustom bolt rifles that are very serviceable that are even more reasonable in price that are take home on payment as well.

There are, as Rusty says, plenty new rifles of all configurations that are fine right out of the box at very reasonable prices, that are also lay your money down and walk out the door with no wait for them to be built.

NOW if what you want is a fine rifle made to order regardless of what type it is, there is going to be a deposit and a wait for delivery.

I would love to have a set of "big five" Heym doubles made in 375H&H fL "leopard", a 450-400, "LION", a 450NE "Buffalo" a 470NE "Rhino", and a 500NE "Elephant" all with each animal engraved on each rifles belly all with consecutive seral numbers.
Even if I had that much disposable funds, I, at my age, being in my 80th year of life would likely die before they were finished. However if I were rich and 30 years old that is exactly what I would do.

So I guess what I'm saying here is if you want something that works properly, and you want it NOW, buy what ever works for you, but if you want full custom, pay you deposit and wait for it, then if it is not well done(SABATTI) refuse it and ask for you money back!
............................................................................

Mac, Biebs, Rusty, all-
not a critique, more of an observation/commentary-

not certain what the availability of "system rifles" has to do at all with a "custom " double or for that matter any "custom" product- knife, holster, belt, boots, car, boat -etc

If "accuracy" along with "ease" of acquisition and/or "cost" and/or "speed" to the field are prime criteria -
then
the purchase of one or even two or three various caliber and very accurate and readily available/accessable Tikka, Accumarks, Savages--etc,
fills the bill faster and more economically and are typically acquired with greater speed/ease than the "system" rifles-

"Custom" products , especially "custom" doubles rifles are about entirely different goal/purposes

They are about a sense of individuality ,
but also about a sense of patronage-
an appreciation and support of the art, the artist and the product itself-
I am well aware that the three of you appreciate fine rifles as well as custom rifles and own them-
and like you , I too am "older" and see a as you do time is no longer a friend-

I too own "system" rifles- though not inexpensive, they are remarkable equipment-and as the industry progresses get even better-
and can be somewhat "custom" at the upper levels-

With "customs"
when a craftsman/artist fails a patron,
we all loose-

of course, specifically the patron/patrons that requested/paid for custom product(s)looses-

also, all those that appreciate the art/product

as well as the particular craftsman/artist and all other similar craftsman/artists that hope to offer their own renditions of the art/product-

I believe "feeling" "the need" for a custom product , particularly a rifle , is ageless
and much more related to personal desires and individual perceptions of the art vs need paradigm than age-

perhaps , because we are "older" and perhaps because we have already sponsored and/or owned custom rifle(s)
our " need" is not that of either a younger or an older man that has not had a "custom"

A bit rambling perhaps,
but
Norsk's loss
is Bailey's loss
is the next gun crafter's /artist's loss

is our loss
at least those of us that love firearms as tool and art

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
Norsk's loss
is Bailey's loss
is the next gun crafter's /artist's loss

is our loss
at least those of us that love firearms as tool and art

.....................I fear the last words here are unfortunately very true!

...................................................................

CC, good point. I think when we're young, our identity is more important to us, and our interest in a gun that's custom-made for us is a reflection of that. As we age, we become more practical, and function surpasses our need for individuality. Just as with cars, look at the money we used to pour into our cars to make them "ours". I used to be into Corvettes, Jaguars, BMWs and the like, to reflect my individuality. These days, give me a car that is comfortable, reliable, and relatively inexpensive, and I'm happy.

Very well stated.
I didn't commission one of Bailey's guns as a personal statement, at least not primarily.
I was struck with the beauty, and individuality of his work. The notion of a falling block double was just to much to resist.
I didn't want it because it was more accurate, faster handling,more reliable, etc. etc.
The esthetic was there, plain and simple. Did I add a couple of little custom touches? Sure. But what I wanted, above all, was one of Bailey's rifles. It speaks to me.
It is a statement of the maker's vision, and execution.

Glad you got yours :-(

Sure wish he could get his act together.

Man, they sure are cool and beautiful guns. I remember handling the first hornet at DSC years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
Man, they sure are cool and beautiful guns. I remember handling the first hornet at DSC years ago.

A group of us DRSS members were at the DSC show when Bailey came up to the Heym booth with a wooden double rifle action he had turned as a pattern for his soon to be first double rifle, that turned out to be the 22 Hornet double mentioned above.

I was totally blown away at the accuracy of that wooden model. As far as I know that was the only traditional break top double rifle he built. It seems he went for the falling block as the only configuration he would build after the one and only break top traditional double.

He may have made others but if so I'm not aware of it!

.....................................................................DRSS

Any updates from you folks waiting on rifles or refunds?

No. A friend in Texas has his attorney on it now.

This thread is just sad!
....................................................................

MacD37;

I agree

Got to love these forums. I was within a week or so of ordering one of Baileys rifles. But after a few PM's with some of our members decided not to.
Thanks guys, you know who you are

Clan_Colla
I have no problems with what you say! I still appreciate a finely crafted firearm. They truly are things of beauty and a joy to behold!

At my age and that's approaching 70, the required wait for such a fine tool is just not worth it to me. I look at it as, "Why should I wait years for a rifle"? And yes, it will be years!
I will be be much happier having something I can shoot next week!
It is all personal perspective!

Along with you, Mac and others I too decry the loss of craftsmen who can produce such wonders. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be as good at managing a business as they are at making firearms. Plus the fact that prospective buyers want a "Mona Lisa" for the price of the paint and canvas!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
CC, good point. I think when we're young, our identity is more important to us, and our interest in a gun that's custom-made for us is a reflection of that. As we age, we become more practical, and function surpasses our need for individuality. Just as with cars, look at the money we used to pour into our cars to make them "ours". I used to be into Corvettes, Jaguars, BMWs and the like, to reflect my individuality. These days, give me a car that is comfortable, reliable, and relatively inexpensive, and I'm happy.

That's certainly one aspect of maturation. The other is memory. If I ordered a gun four years out at my age, I'd probably forget about it altogether. And cuss out the grifter that called my house telling me I owed him money

But I am sorry for both Bailey and his clients if this is the end of the story.

I was ready to order a rifle from Bailey, I had contacted him and he said he would get back to me "right after a show" that was happening a week later...

That was about three years ago and to this day, he never got back to me... That lack of attention put a HUGE flag up for me, so that was that!!

I spent the money else ware and I'm glad I did...

DM

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
Very well stated.
I didn't commission one of Bailey's guns as a personal statement, at least not primarily.
I was struck with the beauty, and individuality of his work. The notion of a falling block double was just to much to resist.
I didn't want it because it was more accurate, faster handling, more reliable, etc. etc.
The esthetic was there, plain and simple. Did I add a couple of little custom touches? Sure. But what I wanted, above all, was one of Bailey's rifles. It speaks to me.
It is a statement of the maker's vision, and execution.

The fact is the things CC mentions about factory bolt rifles and such things being quicker and cheaper to come by and are ready to hunt with as soon as one leaves the gun store. Even if a little custom work is done on the off the shelf bolt, auto, or single shot very little skill is involved in their making.

On the other hand, even the off the shelf double rifle is very labor intensive and requires a lot of human hand fitting, which translates to time one must wait for his rifle if ordered from the maker or even if bought off the shelf at a local dealer he must foot the bill for that human hand fitting. That is not true with the Wall Mart special off the shelf shooter.

There is nothing wrong with the fact that some are satisfied with a rifle that is totally machine made and put together in an assembly line fashion that may work out of the box and may not, when bought on the way to the woods for a deer. However when one is buying a rifle for walking into the bush with a wounded lion or buffalo, even the off the shelf double rifle is a better choice in my opinion.

Far more of the bite-backs are taken with a bolt rifle but most are not taken out of the maker’s box and hunted without some fine tuning before leaving home.

The “BLING” can be added to even a 310 Savage double barreled shotgun, but bling is not what one looks for in a double rifle when using the rifle for its real intended purpose. Though it is not a hindrance to that double or a bolt rifle, that part is a personal preference of the owner and has nothing to do with the double or bolt rifle reliability. To me the BLING is within the touch of the human hand in a doubles making of even a plain field grade working double rifle. Unfortunately that human hand in both fitting and decorating is not only time consuming, but is costly as well.

........................................................................ It is simply a matter of what the buyer wants, and is willing to wait for, and pay for. The Wall Mart is there for those who want that type of firearm, nothing wrong with that!...........OPIONION is something that is owned by all individuals, the above is mine! Others are free to disagree!

I'm always happy to see some new, small operation with a really neat products or services start up and advertise on this board, but there are so many that've gotten overwhelmed that I'm always cautious with deposits.

Been over a month since the last post. Any updates from you folks who have rifles on order?
Refunds?

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:
Hein never refunded deposits. Big difference.

Oh yes he did. After Howard and I sued and eventually got him arrested. Between fines and interest we got all our money back PLUS covered attorney fees.

Jorge that is great news. The last I read you won but could not collect.

There's a thread around here somewhere with all the gory (for him) details.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Got four AR members so far.

PM sent