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I am thinking of buying a double rifle to use as my one rifle for both buffalo and plains game. I doubt that I will hunt elephant. I am trying to decide between a .375 Flanged and a 450/400. The .375 has the advantage past 100 yards but the 450/400 is the better choice for short work. Either option will have a detachable scope. Your thoughts are appreciated. USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | ||
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I love the 450/400...might also want to look at 9.3x74R...most places I've hunted would let you will a buffalo with one...and it will do it no problem... Ed DRSS Member | |||
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An option for me is to carry the 450/400 while a tracker carries my scope bolt .375 H&H. USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I would take either & learn to shoot well,I have a 450-400 Heym,only shot a black bear with it so far,would not hesitate to shoot any game with it,if it was the only gun I had,but if you reload? maybe a double in the 450 class? load it up or down with different bullet weights for the game at hand. DRSS | |||
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Personally, I think the .375 Flanged is the more practical choice. Not only is it fine for buffalo and plains game but you can get a lot of use out of it in North America. You have a wide choice in bullet weights, from 235 grains to 350 grains, assuming you can get it to shoot to regulation with different bullet weights (and even if you cannot you can always sight in the scope for the right barrel). The rifles in .375 Flanged are going to be lighter and easier to lug around too. Mike | |||
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I absolutely love a light 450-400 3 inch, but would have to agree with Mike for an all around double that will get a lot of use no matter where you hunt being a 375 FL mag! The availability of ease of obtaining bullets for re-loading at any gun store is a very big plus as well! ...................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Hmmm... actually thought the 450-400 3" would be easier to source since Hornady includes it in their line-up. On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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. . . what self-respecting double gun owner would not reload?   Mike | |||
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Amen to that. | |||
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I take it what you mean by "all around" is a one rifle for Africa.That would be a rifle that will have to serve as a stopper,50yds DG,and 100yds plains game.I would go for a 450NE. | |||
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If I were to own only one double as an "all- around". It would be a scoped 450-400 with a 1-8 Swaro or 1-8 S&B claw mounted | |||
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If big game is on your ticket, the .450-400 with its heavier 400-grain bullet. If medium game is most of your hunting, then the .375 or the flanged version would get the nod. As to distance, all of the above are fine with open sights to 100 yards and with a 'scope to 200 yards. I only have two doubles with a 'scope (.450-400 and a .350 no2 Rigby) and this has worked well for me: I sight the 'scope dead on with the first barrel I fire (for me that's the left) and I don't bother with the right barrel. At scoped distances I can live without a quick second shot. And, since both rifles are ejectors I can get a second round into the left barrel fairly quick. If I am shooting close, I remove the 'scope and have both barrels shooing to regulation. My longest shot was on a caribou at 195 yards. Just my two cents. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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If I am not mistaken the 450/400 has the same energy as a 300WM.I would not feel comfortable in the Zambezi Valley with such.The minimum chambering would be the 450NE for me. | |||
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Included in the energy calculation is the bullet's velocity being squared. This places too much emphisis on velocity. (If you send a .22 LR bullet at over 5000 fps the energy is about the same as a .458 magnum). A better way to compare is Taylor's KO value. Here the true potential of the larger cartridges comes into reality. Cheers, George. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I've had both but at present I have the 375F  | |||
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If you are using only factory ammo that would be the case! However once a supply of brass for the 375 FL mag is secured .375 bullets of all kinds are available over the counter at just about any gun store you visit. Like Mike Jines says, I too find that to get the best from any double rifle one needs to hand-load to be able to use different weights and style of bullets to shoot to regulation. That also is a money saver as well making it easier to do a lot of practice with your double rifle. The only reason I ever buy factory ammo for a double rifle is to get the brass for re-loading, and to use the factory for target practice to keep sharp in muscle memory exercises, to get quick shots off on target and for quick reloading for shots three and four on target. .............Others may have a different opinion, and I think that is still allowed here on AR! ..................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I have done one gun trips with a scoped 450-400 plains game and elephant. Works just great. If you own a gun and you are not a member of the NRA and other pro 2nd amendment organizations then YOU are part of the problem. | |||
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No one has mentioned the 500/416!!!Hmmm! Oh, if it wasn't invented 100 years ago it can't be any good! Then there is that silly cocking device! Sorry! Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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There may be some truth in this! Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Although I'd go with my 450-400 I think I'd be happy the 450NE as well cause I love shooting mine and it is accurate. | |||
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Except for historical or nostalgic reasons I've never figured why one would own a .375F at three to four times the price when a 9.3x74r does exactly the same thing for all intensive purposes. If you are looking for an all around working gun and a shooter the 9.3 is a sensible choice. If you are looking for double in a stopping caliber that is more practical a .450 fits the bill nicely due to lots of bullet choices. It is also a myth on this site that the .470 has poor performance on big game. With modern bullets this is absoloutley false. A .470 always has been and always will be a fine choice in a double. I pressed my .470NE into general service for years. I got to where I could reliable hit the kill hogs out to 200 yards with that rifle. It's about knowing your rifle and shooting it a lot under field conditions more than it is about caliber. The .450-400 saves you quite a bit of recoil over the .450's and up. | |||
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surestrike I agree with what you are saying about modern bullets. The "solids" eg. banded bullets from G.S. Custom and others, have changed the game significantly IMHO, especially for the "medium" calibers like the 9.3x74R (and the 416's! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I've owned many double rifles over the years and finally stopped with the 450-400 3". Thirty five years ago I started with a Jeffery 450-400 3". At that time the 450-400 was the unwanted stepchild of the shooting world with everyone raving about the 470 class rifles. I tried about everything from 450-400 to 500 nitro and am now back where I started with the 450-400. It is amazing how gun writers can influence impressions of what is good and what is not. I love my Heym 450-400, but would give about anything to have the Jeffery back. The 450-400 is now the darling of the shooting world and maybe I've again been influenced???? I don't think so though. The 450-400 is a great round and as I have grown older I appreciate the lighter recoil. | |||
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Good news is that you should be fine with either choice. I have a 450/400 and a 9.3x74; both with claw mount scopes, and both very accurate. I hand load and have solid & soft point loads for each that regulate together. I don't expect to hunt another elephant, so if I pared down to one double, I suspect it would be the 9.3x74. Probably because its lighter and I always carry my own... Good hunting, | |||
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I see for some it is more of what they can carry and shoot instead of what is an all around African double chambering.If you are a weak and hopeless fellow (like most here) then I guess in your dreams a pea shooter on sticks can be the all around rifle. | |||
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Another vote for 9.3x74R - once you will appreciate the versatility of it, you will probably shoot and hunt with it far more than you would with the one in other calibers...and it will grow on you - proficiency with. On the other side - I have shot one in .375 H&H quite a lot lately and it performed flawlessly - blasphemy the mag rim aside I would get one in no time - probably the easiest and cheapest aquired ammo anywhere - even in the darkest of Africa. Pick your poison. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: The only reason I ever buy factory ammo for a double rifle is to get the brass for re-loading, and to use the factory for target practice to keep sharp in muscle memory exercises, to get quick shots off on target and for quick reloading for shots three and four on target. .............Others may have a different opinion, and I think that is still allowed here on AR! I will give you an "AMEN" on that comment. I would also add that Nosler makes ammo for the 375 Flanged Magnum in both solid and partition bullet varieties. The solids actually shoot quite well in my V-C double, but the real reason for me buying the Nosler ammo is to get the cases for reloading - and Nosler cases are top shelf IMO.  | |||
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George: You had to go to school to be as rude and insulting as you are. I mean, this can't be naturally occurring? Were the classes undergrad? Master's level, or doctorate (PhAH)? Wasn't your diseration entitled, "How my $5000 double exceeds every Holland, Purdey, Woodward, Lang, Lancaster, Rodda, Churchill (etc.) ever built." Just wondering… Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal, it embarrasses me to have agreed with him. His brain does not operate in conjunction with normalcy. I think this stuff just pops out voluntarily or involuntarily. | |||
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My vote should not count near as much as others here. But let me make a feeble plea for the 375FLM. When one says all around double, I envision a rifle used on game in the 800 pound range and down most often with the need to make an occasional 200 yard shot. That can sever as a dangerous game rifle if need be and on occasion. The 375 FLM can be built 9 pounds with scope and that scope and 300 grain bullet can get you to 200 yards. Thee recoil of such a rifle will be like a 20 gague. You can go down in scope or remove the scope for that once in a life time buffalo hunt. Mr. Clan Colla graciously allowed me a few rounds with his Heym in 375FLM. If I were to get another double this set up will be it. Right now there are some places and things to hunt. I am indebted to him for the trigger time. | |||
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I would go with the 375 Flanged. Especially if you don't think you are going to be hunting lots of buffalo and elephant. My Heym consistently shoots these groups below. (It did take a lot of load workup though, most small doubles I have bought are more fussy) These are 4 shot groups.     Mac | |||
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Why not have both? Order 2 sets of barrels........hell, make it 3 and get a set of 20 gauge barrels too. No need to overthink this (it just takes money)!!!  Andy#3 | |||
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I have a set of barrels in 7x57R also  | |||
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+1,Peter has it right,the 500/416 will do it all with the standard load a 410 gr bullet @ 2350 fps,although I have several DR'S,my k gun in 500/416 is boringly accurate & lethal on everything that I have shot with it so far & that includes a pretty big cape cow,she never took a step,I still like the 45 cals because I love to reload different loads weights etc,but gotta admit that the 500/416 is one under appreciated caliber. DRSS | |||
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Impressive groups - what was the range? | |||
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George, I am once again amazed that you are able to alienate yourself from 99% of the folks on this board with a few poorly chosen words. Hats off to you! I was hopeful that you would ADD something to the conversation instead of lashing out at others. My vote for an all around double rifle would be anything from a 9.3 x 74R to 450/400. They all have enough energy to get it done. I am partial to the 450/400 for doubles myself. Bigger bullets= bigger holes. With good bullets and good shot placement everything you shoot will die. Cheers, Matt
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surestrike, the main reason is not nostalgia but the fact that in most places in Africa the 9.3X74R is not legal for dangerous game animals, and the 375H&H fl mag is! For Africa a all around rifle of any kind must be legal for what you are hunting. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the 450-400NE 3 inch but we are not talking about me, we are talking about the OP's choices. The 375H&H, and 375H&H fl mag have taken everything Africa has to offer from dik dik to elephant. So has the 9.3X74R but not on legal hunts. I have two 9.3X74R doubles, and four 375H&H bolt rifles, and I dearly love my little Merkel 140E-1 9.3X74R double, and is always with me in the field, but my 470NE is there as well, and the serve two different purposes, but I would love to have a 375H&HFL mag double rifle as well for a one gun hunt in African that also included cape buffalo. The only one shot kills I have ever had on buffalo have been with a 375H&H bolt rifle. All others have taken at least three shots. .........However this is a free world and only the guy buying the rifle has the choice of which he wants. ..................................................................... .................................................................. As far as cost, that doesn't seem to matter to those who want a double rifle of their choice. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Right around 90 yards. Mac | |||
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I wonder if anyone has actually ever been turned down when trying to hunt with a 9.3? I would find it hard to believe that common sense would not be applied but I guess that is often a rare commodity in Africa. Mac | |||
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Mac, I am curious,you said the only one shot kills that you had on buffalo have been with a 375 bolt,all others have taken at least three shots? do you mind elaborating on this? was it shot placement? poor bullet choice?better penetration with the 375?which other calibers did you shoot buffalo with? I have used two calibers on buff so far,470 & 500/416,they both killed, the 500/416 was more impressive,but I think it was shot placement in my case,I would take either on a hunt again. DRSS | |||
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