(Merkel)..

This picture was posted to give evidence that Merkel double rifles are prone to mechanical double discharge. The fact is this picture is perfect evidence of a STRUMMING DOUBLING, by a person that is not used to shooting big bore double rifles !

In my opinion, the person firing this Merkel double is not the owner, or if he is this is likely the first time he has ever fired it.

First off a Merkel double rifle is chambered for a round no larger than 500NE, and if the rifle was being held properly, which it was not, even the 500NE would not have recoiled both hands completely off the rifle, but would not have let the rifle recoil that high, and kick the shooter back on his left leg with his right leg completely off the ground.

With the rifle held properly, with the trigger hand gripping the pistol grip properly, and the fore hand clasping the barrels at the front end of the splinter, and the body leaning into the butt with a proper cheek weld, even the double discharge of a 500NE in a 11 pound double could not have cause the shooter to be knocked almost off his feet.

In my opinion, a full 90% of all doublings of any brand double rifle are caused by inexperienced double rifle shooters on a rifle range where the shooter is shooting another person’s double. With that said I would bet my next retirement check that is the case presented in the picture above!

What say YE people????????????????????????

Is this a mechanical discharge?

Is this a novice strumming?

Question:
What say YE people????????????????????????

Is this a mechanical discharge?

Is this a novice strumming?

Choices:
Is this a mechanical discharge?
Is this a novice strumming?

 

Almost without fail, everyone that shot my Merkel in .470 NE pulled the front trigger first and strummed the back one due to the recoil. They never had shot anything that kicked that hard and were not used to it.

470 NE and it was strummed according to the thread on 24hr that was posted by said owner of the Merkel.

According to that thread, the gentleman pictured had never shot anything that large before.

Jorge will be the one "mechanical" vote :-)

MAC:
Excellent post and observations. I notice the same things when I go to our double rifle shoots and see the difference between experienced and inexperienced shooters and heavy kicking doubles.

This is exactly why I load my larger rifles down 10-20% so the inexperienced nimrod who just wants to "touch off a 4-bore" does not lose the rifle out of his hands.

Two gents, both experienced shooters, have had my .600 double on them and they controlled it well. I've never had a doubling but I shoot the rear trigger/left barrel first and have done so for 25 years. Once, in the late 1980s, I pulled the front trigger first and I had a .577 Cashmore double on me.

I don't understand strumming. The rear trigger is offset to the left so I don't understand how one can strum" it unless just the tip of the trigger finger is on the front trigger and the recoil caused it to slip back.

I asked a gent who took a video of a gent from New Zealand firing my .600 and it doubled on him. Perhaps he can zoom in on the trigger finger and the low motion film will tell something.

Anyway, good post.
Cal

Simple as ABC, he did not take hold of the forend, probably failed to grip the grip and pull the rifle into his shoulder, didn't lean into it a tad and definitely, judging by the right hand pulled the front trigger first.

BTW, I have seen in print on AR and in some magazines the doubles are regulated by firing the front trigger first ands the back trigger second so that's the way they are sighted in and expected to be used..Nothing could be further from the truth, fired either way the shoot to the same POI, and I always shoot the rear trigger first if for no other reason than to prevent doubling!

The double rifle is myth in the making, so much misinformation on it such as 4831 causes blowups, and monolithics cannot not be shot in good doubles and on and on, some has some bases in fact, most does not, but even on those with bases such as firing monolithics, that only holds true for some guns, but certainly not for all of them! Ive shot GS Custom Flat nose solids in all my doubles over the years with never a problem.

Here is the original post and some additional info on your particular photo........

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...0NE_-_P#Post10110808

If I may, I believe you are looking at the picture all wrong..
The shooter has not shot the gun but, he is about to shoot the gun..
His trusted gun bearer has tossed him the rifle over his shoulder whilst he is keeping his target in sight. As you can see he has caught the rifle with his right hand and is showing or anticipating proper trigger management by keeping his trigger finger forward and awaiting for the rest of the rifle to fall in place. If we were there we would see the above nimrod roll forward onto his front foot and deliver a quick right left showing the crowd the proper way of shooting a double, the right barrel first.

The poll seems to suggest that only novices strum the rear trigger. I have done it twice, in the heat of the moment in the field. But I clearly can be lumped in the novice category.

However, just this afternoon I watched the latest episode of Under Wild Skies with Tony Makris. Tony has done a lot of hunting and much of it with nice doubles. On the hunt today he was using a Westley Richards Super Magnum Explora paradox double. He was hunting buffalo and on his last two shots he doubled the rifle. To his credit, the footage was shown and he owned up to the issue saying that his finger was wet and slipped from the front trigger to the rear.

Point is that doubling can be mechanical error or operator error but I suspect operator error is far more commonly the cause. And it can happen to anyone from novice to experienced shooter.

And the experienced DR shooters recognize and admit it, while the weekend warriors blame the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Jorge will be the one "mechanical" vote :-)

Nope, I know the man who owns that double and AFTER he had it FIXED because it was DOUBLING, he loaned it to this guy to shoot and he strummed it.

Gotcha! I knew the "doubling" issue would get your attention :-)

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
MAC:
I don't understand strumming. The rear trigger is offset to the left so I don't understand how one can strum" it unless just the tip of the trigger finger is on the front trigger and the recoil caused it to slip back.

Anyway, good post.
Cal

The strumming is caused by two things, one is poor trigger contact, as you state with the fingertip, and because when a double rifle fires the barrel being fired moves UP and away from the other barrel. The right barrel moving up and to the right moves the back trigger to the right in line with the trigger finger after the finger slips off the front trigger then hits the back trigger. These two things combined with a person not used to the heavy recoil is a sure fire STRUMMING double discharge!

looks like some new jersey dude shooting a 410for the first time

Butch, for a 500 NE and below, I only use one hand :-)

MAC: read my post, it was strumming...

What I want to know, is did he drop the rifle?

If it was not his, and he did; did he survive the drop by more than two minutes

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
looks like some new jersey dude shooting a 410for the first time

No, too classy and coordinated for someone from NJ--one of the commie capitols of the east coast.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
What I want to know, is did he drop the rifle?

If it was not his, and he did; did he survive the drop by more than two minutes

From the linkL The poor feller managed to touch both barrels off at pretty much the same time. As can be seen, he no longer has a hold on the rifle. Fortunately, there was someone behind him and to the right who caught the old guy with his left hand and as luck would have it, caught the rifle with his right.

One day several years ago when I first got my Merkel .500 NE.



I was trying a new load that kicked much more viciously (106 of IMR 4350) than my usual load (96 of R 15). I thought I was an expert already at shooting and got lax.

Strummed the rear trigger. But I felt it happen and knew exactly what I had done as soon as I had done it. I felt my finger slide back and pull the other trigger.

Shot 100's of times since now...never an issue...just love that rifle!

I suspect 99% of DDs are strums.

I wonder if the double discharges with Merkels may be attributed to the fact that this reasonable priced double is often a first big bore double for many (due to price) thus more inexperienced use? I certainly feel this was the case with my only two double discharges .

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I wonder if the double discharges with Merkels may be attributed to the fact that this reasonable priced double is often a first big bore double for many (due to price) thus more inexperienced use? I certainly feel this was the case with my only two double discharges .

Very interesting observation.

That the shooter's right hand came away certainly suggests a loose finger.

I've only ever had one doubling, from an old Greener shotgun where the left hammer was a ring-in and the trigger definitely a bit light. I did not lose my grip on it, though, and felt the second recoil just as a gentle additional push, like the second cylinder firing in a motor.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
BTW, I have seen in print on AR and in some magazines the doubles are regulated by firing the front trigger first ands the back trigger second so that's the way they are sighted in and expected to be used..Nothing could be further from the truth, fired either way the shoot to the same POI, and I always shoot the rear trigger first if for no other reason than to prevent doubling!

Ray while it maybe true that fired either way some rifles will shoot to the same point of impact, the first part of your sentence is absolutely true even though you obviously do not believe it yourself. Double rifles were derived from double shotguns which from day one because of the more open choke always being in the right barrel were set to fire in the sequence of right barrel/left barrel - front trigger/rear trigger.

There would be no earthly reason why, even though the barrels of a double rifle are not choked, for those early manufacturers right up to the modern day manufacturer to have a double trigger double rifle designed to fire in a different sequence than a SxS shotgun, just would not make sense design or manufacturing wise. Therefore double trigger rifles are designed to be fired front/right and then rear/left. That is how they they would be regulated and sighted. The rear trigger in a double could be made inline with the front but never is, it is deliberately offset to try and prevent doubling and needs a practiced and deliberate movement to move the finger back on release of the front trigger and through onto the rear trigger. Whether firing a double rifle in the other sequence has an effect on the POI only trial with each gun would tell and it may only be apparent after more than just two shots, I don't shoot them so do not know but I do know irrespective of what some think there is a technically correct sequence for shooting a double trigger double barrel firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
... I watched the latest episode of Under Wild Skies with Tony Makris. Tony has done a lot of hunting and much of it with nice doubles. On the hunt today he was using a Westley Richards Super Magnum Explora paradox double. He was hunting buffalo and on his last two shots he doubled the rifle. To his credit, the footage was shown and he owned up to the issue saying that his finger was wet and slipped from the front trigger to the rear.

I just watched that too and was a bit surprised that he was shooting the explora off sticks earlier in the episode. It recoiled off the sticks so much, I thought he was going to lose it! Cannot be a good thing for insuring your first shot is true. I thought he would have put his forearm on the sticks to maintain a decent hold on the forend but he shot it without any grip on the barrels at all.
I don't have as much experience shooting doubles as most folks here and have never had a DD, however, when I allow others to shoot any bigger recoiling doubles of mine, I always have just one barrel loaded as to prevent a dropped rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I wonder if the double discharges with Merkels may be attributed to the fact that this reasonable priced double is often a first big bore double for many (due to price) thus more inexperienced use? I certainly feel this was the case with my only two double discharges .

OZ, I agree that is most likely the case with a large number of strumming. However as Mike says it can happen to even a seasoned double rifle shooter as well. I have two Merekels and when I got the little 140E-1 chambered for 9.3X74R I promptly strummed the triggers on the first time I fired it. The reason was most all of my double rifles owned before had been heavy chamberings and I was not expecting the recoil the little 9.3 would develop so was not holding it properly and the Double discharge was so close together that I did not realize it had fired both barrels till I opened it and it kicked both empties out.

That is one of only two double discharges I have experienced in 57 years of owning and hunting double rifles of all brands. The other one was a 450NE A&N that I bought when I was 22 years old and was my first big bore double also strummed on the first firing!

My two Merkels have both been doubled by others but only the one time by me with the 9.3.

My 9.3 Merkel was made back in the early 1990s, and my 470NE was made in the late 90s so both are early rifles. Both have several hundred rounds fired through them with no problem with either of them.

It is my guess that many if not all of the double discharges attributed to the Merkel brand are simply strummings and there is not a brand in existence that has not been doubled by strumming, and in no way is a indictment on the quality of any of them, Merkel included. I have owned several double trigger Merkel double barreled shotguns and have not had a problem with them either! IMO, if you start a silly counting of doublings of any brand you can count them as 90% strummings as well. The poll and comments so far has indicated that is likely the case.

................................................................... carry on!

Let's not beat this to death lads. Even most Merkel owners acknowledge the doubling issue with Merkels and certainly the over a dozen that I've documented as accurate. They might have since resolved the issue, but that is part of the Merkel MO.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
And the experienced DR shooters recognize and admit it, while the weekend warriors blame the rifle.

.................... Well said! Case closed! On to better things to discuss!

.....................BYE

For the reading impaired, THIS particular rifle HAD a doubling issue until the owner had it fixed:
If you'll recall, you are indeed correct about this rifle. This is the only time this rifle has doubled since I received it back from Merkel. It has since had several hundred rounds thought it, shot by folks from 13 year old girls to 80+ year old men without incident. I would guess that is more rounds than your typical double rifle will see in its lifetime these days. All without incident until a novice comes in.

This is also the first time it almost hit the ground. The man completely lost the rifle. The rifle was horizontal when the chap behind him caught it. Nothing to do with the rifle. It was partly the shooter, and my fault for not qualifying this fellow prior to letting him shoot.

If it were the fault of the rifle I will say so but in this case it wasn't.

The only Merkels that I have ever seen have a mechanical doubling issue are ones that had an incompetent (at least for Doubles) gunsmith do a "trigger job" on.

Lane, did you get to shoot your new double yet?

If you haven't doubled one yet, you haven't been shooting long enough!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Lane, did you get to shoot your new double yet?

Hi Biebs,

I have not...but will soon. I mainly bought it for 2 reasons: 1) it was too cheap and 2) because it had integral mounts to put on a Trijicon RMR. And I wanted to try the RMR as I cannot see irons anymore.

To be honest...it weighs 1.5 # more than my Merkel and is not nearly as handy.

After I pass judgement on whether or not I want to put a red-dot on my Merkel .500 NE...I will probably sell it as it is too heavy and bulky.

Lane,
David put a Doc Optic on his 475#2 Jeffery. He used it a couple of months ago in Africa and really liked it! Love my FastFire on my Hollis!

Like you, iron sights don't work for me.

I got a New Trijicom RMR and the right mount to put it on this Searcy. I will give it a whirl and see if I like and also pass judgement on whether I could carry this rifle all day hunting.

Lane, for $5, a tracker will carry it for you all day :-)

I kind of like to carry my own shooting iron.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
One day several years ago when I first got my Merkel .500 NE.

I was trying a new load that kicked much more viciously (106 of IMR 4350) than my usual load (96 of R 15). I thought I was an expert already at shooting and got lax.

Strummed the rear trigger. But I felt it happen and knew exactly what I had done as soon as I had done it. I felt my finger slide back and pull the other trigger.

Shot 100's of times since now...never an issue...just love that rifle!

I suspect 99% of DDs are strums.

Ledvm, I have found that most who get a strumming double discharge especially if new to big bore double rifles are not aware of touching the rear trigger at all, and only find out when the try to fire the second barrel, or open the rifle to find both cartridges fired.
It is my opinion that if the rifle did not belong, or even if it does but is new to them, they tend to think something is wrong with the rifle. Also firing the back trigger first is not a sure hedge against a double discharge, though it is rare for those who are used to heavy recoil.

I had three different people get double discharges with my Merkel 470NE but all three were not used to shooting double rifles. This led to all of them blaming the rifle.

Because I couldn't believe this was possible without something being wrong with the rifle, I fired about fifty rounds through the rifle all using the rear trigger first without a single DD. The reason I first thought this was a new problem with the rifle is, I had fired the rifle many time before back trigger first and had never gotten a DD that way.

I have since fired the rifle may times while hunting back trigger first without a problem. In fact I have never had a DD with this rifle no matter how I fire it.

This puzzled me,till I was told how this happens by a member here who shoots sporting clays and skeet with shotguns, that it is not only possible to cause a DD when firing the back trigger first, but is also possible with a single trigger shotgun or double rifle as well. Both when there is nothing wrong with the gun.

His description was, If the shooter is firing the back trigger first but not holding the rifle/shotgun tightly this lets the gun move back rapidly into the shooters hand and shoulder letting the trigger finger push the front trigger forward. If the trigger is not hinged so it will move freely forward, the trigger will move the trigger transfer bar compressing the sear spring, and when the trigger is pushed back by the spring it disengages the sear letting the right barrel fire.

This was something I had never heard before and I had said that the only way to really avoid a DD would have to be a single trigger in a double. Believing that left me puzzled about a DD my young 8 yr old son got with my 12 ga O/U single trigger shotgun. I could not see how this could be possible unless something was amiss with the lock system. I took the shotgun apart and found nothing wrong inside. Like most I first blamed the shotgun but could find no mechanical reason for the DD.

The member then told me how that happens with a single trigger rifle/shotgun! He told me this happens all the time on a clays range. He said My shotguns length of pull was too long for the child so when he fired the shotgun the recoil pushed against his shoulder so hard moving him back so the trigger was moved back away from his trigger finger and when the shotgun was moved forward again the trigger hit his finger again firing the other barrel.

Like safeties nothing made by man is 100% reliable, and all can be made to malfunction by man!

.................................................................................................................................

I've mentioned this previously but with the Merkel 500NE I owned in the past, that rifle was doubled twice. Never by me however.

The first time was while hunting buffalo cows in RSA with a "questionable" PH. By that, I mean he shows up for the buffalo hunt portion of my safari with a Remington semi-automatic 30/06 topped with a stainless fixed 6 power scope as his back up rifle. This he borrowed from the local police chief who was in charge of the concession. But I digress. Anyway, he wanted to shoot my double after the hunt. Figuring he was a qualified PH, again there's that "questionable" thing, I handed him the rifle along with two cartridges. Without my noticing, he placed both fingers inside the trigger guard, one on each trigger. BaBang!! Doubled it!

The second instance was while hunting pigs with a friend of mine here in TX. He had never fired a double and wanted to have a go. He put two fingers in the trigger guard in the exact same way but I caught it this time as I knew now to look for it with someone who has little to no experience with doubles. But, he strummed the rear trigger anyway due to not having the proper hold on the rifle.

So yeah, my Merkel doubles a couple of times. Both were operator error that would have doubled any DR fired in the same manner.

Now days, for anyone who wants to shoot one of my doubles, unless I know them to be an experienced DR shooter, I let them load only one barrel.

quote:

I suspect 99% of DDs are strums.

Then you would be wrong in the case of Merkels. Many of the ones I've written about here, were shot by folks keenly aware of the strumming issue, but assuming your assumption is correct, then Merkel has yet another issue, that of poorly placed triggers. Bottom line is virtually all the doubling issues here have been about Merkel.