If anyone has read my last reply to Jorge's post above I just deleted it because it is not worth the aggravation.

I will just say the painting of Merkel double rifles as prone to doubling are simply not verifiable simply because it is not true! Merkel has been building double shotguns and double rifles for well over 100 yrs with the respect of world wide hunters since their founding.

My two Merkel double rifles have had over 800 rounds fired through them with only four double discharges, two by strumming and two while shooting the back trigger first by people who had never fired a double rifle in their lives. I have fired about 1/3rd of the rounds fired using the back trigger first and have never doubled the 470NE even once. So firing the back trigger first is not a problem poor hand and finger engagement is the problem.

I did double the little 9.3X74r double the first time I fired it because I underestimated it's recoil and was holding it too loosely. Never been doubled again in well over 400 rounds fired through it.

I've never had a double discharge in any Merkel I've owned that was not because of strumming.

Believe what you want but I have never had even one case of any Merkel I've owned, or that of several friends and acquaintances who also have owned Merkels to show any sign of a mechanically induced doubling problem.

Jorge is entitled to his opinion but I'm here to tell you Merkels are not double discharge prone!

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As a matter of interest can someone explain the mechanics of strumming double triggers?
My way of thinking is that if you were not 'gripping' the grip of the rifle tight then as it recoiled back you trigger finger actually gets shunted towards the front of the guard away from the rear trigger. I recall some complaining of mashing their fingers when shooting a double, maybe it's the second digit sitting in behind the trigger guard that gets hammered but doesn't this indicated that the hand is allowing the grip to recoil back through it?

Shot many a double trigger shotgun in my early days, some bloody old booters too and I was pretty lightly built then, but never have experienced a DD. Then I do like to have my finger on any trigger near the first joint.

Gents:
At the Alaska double shoot a couple of weeks ago a fella doubled my .600. Another fella video taped the shot and last week ran it up close and slow motion. He could see the "strumming". I understand what he saw the trigger finger on the front trigger slip back at the instant of the recoil of the first shot and brushed or strummed the rear trigger.
Cal

quote:

I understand what he saw the trigger finger on the front trigger slip back at the instant of the recoil of the first shot and brushed or strummed the rear trigger.Cal

Correct.
I see this many times and I had it on video too.

The first time I shot a shotgun it doubled.I remember the bruise I got and my surprise when I opened the side by side and saw that both shells had gone off.This happened the next time I shot it and my father gave shit to my grandfather about it.It turned out that my grandfather had been aware of the issue all long and had yet to get the shotgun to a smith.
I also seen a over and under shotgun that will strike a primer hard enough to go off should you hit the butt on the ground.I will never trust a DR no matter what or until I can take them apart and have complete know how.
As for strumming I believe this is common because most hunters don't have the years of experience shooting rifles so that there hand actions become trained and disciplined.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
As a matter of interest can someone explain the mechanics of strumming double triggers?
My way of thinking is that if you were not 'gripping' the grip of the rifle tight then as it recoiled back you trigger finger actually gets shunted towards the front of the guard away from the rear trigger.

eagle27,The problem with your take is, because the trigger finger is being PULLED when the rifle fires it continues to be pulled back when it slips off the front trigger contacting the back trigger like strumming the strings of a guitar. A millisecond later the back of the trigger guard bangs into the second finger under recoil.

As Cal just pointed out, if a DD is filmed and seen in slow motion zooming in on the trigger finger this can be plainly seen. The problem is, all this happens so fast that even the shooter doesn't even realize that there is a millisecond of time between the firing of each barrel that makes the shooter think only one barrel has fired. Then when he finds both barrels have fired he thinks something is wrong with the rifle when it is really a shooter problem.

Both phenomenons are caused by a loose hand hold on the grip, and a poor finger TIP purchase on the front trigger!

Everyone who owns a double rifle has accidently strummed the triggers of a double rifle at least once, but the experience is a fine teacher and it seldom happens often there after!
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Mac, that Merkels are more prone to doubling is a known fact but it has nothing to do with the rifles. It's because, as we all know, Merkel users have fatter fingers.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
As a matter of interest can someone explain the mechanics of strumming double triggers?
My way of thinking is that if you were not 'gripping' the grip of the rifle tight then as it recoiled back you trigger finger actually gets shunted towards the front of the guard away from the rear trigger.

eagle27,The problem with your take is, because the trigger finger is being PULLED when the rifle fires it continues to be pulled back when it slips off the front trigger contacting the back trigger like strumming the strings of a guitar. A millisecond later the back of the trigger guard bangs into the second finger under recoil.

As Cal just pointed out, if a DD is filmed and seen in slow motion zooming in on the trigger finger this can be plainly seen. The problem is, all this happens so fast that even the shooter doesn't even realize that there is a millisecond of time between the firing of each barrel that makes the shooter think only one barrel has fired. Then when he finds both barrels have fired he thinks something is wrong with the rifle when it is really a shooter problem.

Both phenomenons are caused by a loose hand hold on the grip, and a poor finger TIP purchase on the front trigger!

Everyone who owns a double rifle has accidently strummed the triggers of a double rifle at least once, but the experience is a fine teacher and it seldom happens often there after!
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I have been owning and shooting quality English and German double rifles for almost as long as Mac has. Although I use the pad of the first joint of my trigger finger, I have never had a double discharge. I do grant that it could happen the next time I fire a double rifle.

I use the finger tip pad because it allows me to pull the trigger straight back, where using the first joint doesn't. I learned that long ago when learning to shoot a pistol accurately. By using the front pad, it causes the trigger finger to be bent farther away from the trigger allowing more room to miss the rear trigger if the hand slips back.

Also, I think what happens with a strumming incident is that the shooter doesn't maintain proper shoulder muscle tension, pistol grip tension, thus allowing the shoulder to move back which pulls the hand away from the correct trigger finger position which causes the strumming. Look at the picture of the shooter Mac posted and you can see that his shoulder has been pushed so far back that his hand is way behind the trigger guard.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Mac, that Merkels are more prone to doubling is a known fact but it has nothing to do with the rifles. It's because, as we all know, Merkel users have fatter fingers.

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quote:

If anyone has read my last reply to Jorge's post above I just deleted it because it is not worth the aggravation.

I will just say the painting of Merkel double rifles as prone to doubling are simply not verifiable simply because it is not true!

Go right ahead and call me a liar Mac. I know what is SAW and witnessed and on several occasions.
Being called a liar is worth every penny of aggravation to me in throwing it right back in your face, ACE, and if you would have bothered to read my posts, you can READ where the owner of that double did indeed send it back to Merkel and the FIXED it, including the bending of the trigger under recoil. Man, I've gotten mellow in my old age...

Well seeing as things are getting a little tense, let me just say that if you had a 14 pound double rifle then doubling just wouldn't happen!!!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

If anyone has read my last reply to Jorge's post above I just deleted it because it is not worth the aggravation.

I will just say the painting of Merkel double rifles as prone to doubling are simply not verifiable simply because it is not true!

Go right ahead and call me a liar Mac. I know what is SAW and witnessed and on several occasions.
Being called a liar is worth every penny of aggravation to me in throwing it right back in your face, ACE, and if you would have bothered to read my posts, you can READ where the owner of that double did indeed send it back to Merkel and the FIXED it, including the bending of the trigger under recoil. Man, I've gotten mellow in my old age...

Jorge, You misunderstood my comment! I did not call you a liar, I'm sure what you saw was what you say it was or at least what you believe it was.

What I meant was the Merkel double rifles as a brand are no more prone to double discharge because of mechanical reason than any other brand, and I stand by that statement. I would guess that some of these so-called mechanical DDs were taking the word of the owner that he did not strum the triggers which he believs he didn't when he actually had, and then blamed the rifle.

Jorge I would never call you a liar on the internet any more than I would face to face! I'm sorry if you took my statement the way you did, but I assure you it was not meant that way!

The only problem I had with the picture you posted with only 14 at the top, and Merkel at the bottom of the picture when you knew this was not a mechanical double discharge. IMO that was a simple attempt to give the impression that it was was just yet another mechanical DD by MERKEL

Again Jorge, you are initialed to your opinion, and so am I! My opinion is Merkels are no more prone to mechanical double discharge than any other brand. I've seen DDs with every brand made over the last 57 years since I bought my first double at age 21 and a full 90% of them are operator error!
......................So, I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree!

quote:

you say it was or at least what you believe it was

A rose by any other name. Now I'm senile. I'm done, Mac.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

you say it was or at least what you believe it was

A rose by any other name. Now I'm senile. I'm done, Mac.

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Senile??? Anyone who is smart enough to learn to land aircraft on the moving deck of an aircraft carrier is certainly not senile!

I'm done as well! BYE!

C'mon guys....

I think their should be a disclaimer when people state "facts".
Are they are a formally trained gunsmith, tinkerer, collector, hobbyist?
Their is a huge difference. Not saying practical experience is not useful but many times we have diagnosis by non experts and they are accepted because of their "status"

My gunsmith (Jan Kolenbrander)who is a graduate of the colorado gunsmithing school and who has also worked for a member of the ACGG told me that he has worked on a number of Merkel doubles.I can't remember what the exact issues were however.I should ask him sometime.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

I suspect 99% of DDs are strums.

Then you would be wrong in the case of Merkels. Many of the ones I've written about here, were shot by folks keenly aware of the strumming issue, but assuming your assumption is correct, then Merkel has yet another issue, that of poorly placed triggers. Bottom line is virtually all the doubling issues here have been about Merkel.

Jorge,
With all due respect sir...I would wager I have personally shot as many or more rounds through large bore Merkel double rifles as anyone. Both my Father and I have personal ranges 50 yards from our back doors and we shoot A LOT and host a lot of other shooters. As I admitted...I strummed mine once when I shot a load I was unused to.

Thus far though I have not been able to get a Merkel to mechanically DD yet and I have shot 100's of rounds out of them comprised over greater than 10 different rifles. The 2 knowledgeable DR gunsmiths I have asked about both said the only ones they have seen DD were ones that had improper trigger jobs. However strumming by those inexperienced is a VERY common occurrence amongst all makes.

Thus far, as I buy and trade off other doubles, I have yet to find a handier trustier rifle than my Merkel .500 NE.

So...I just have to say...I trust my own experience.

25 years ago I had a .577 Cashmore double on me. I fired the right barrel first and must have strummed the second trigger. Then I developed the habit of shooting the left barrel first and have never had a doubling in 20+ years and thousands of rounds fired. The folks who have have my rifles double on them have always fired the right barrel first.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
25 years ago I had a .577 Cashmore double on me. I fired the right barrel first and must have strummed the second trigger. Then I developed the habit of shooting the left barrel first and have never had a doubling in 20+ years and thousands of rounds fired. The folks who have have my rifles double on them have always fired the right barrel first.
Cal

But, doubling as a result of strumming while firing the right barrel first ( also interpreted as the "correct" barrel first ) is a problem with poor technique, not a mechanical issue.

Technically speaking, a double should be capable of firing either barrel first as in the old practice of loading a solid in one and a soft in the other, giving instantaneous choice of bullet type.

I don't know how many hundreds of rounds I fired in that Merkel 140 of mine. I never doubled it. If there was an issue with the gun, with as many rounds as I fired, it would have shown up. I described how two novices doubled that rifle by using poor technique. Jorge counted my rifle in his list of Merkel's that doubled after I first made that statement. That rifle should definitely NOT be in his list.

Eagle 27,
I agree with your post in that doubles are regulated right left or front to rear triggers, but my point was they all seem to shoot the same POI and group size both ways, at least the many I have shot did..

As to Merkels doubling, well doubles just do that under certain circumstances, mostly from too light triggers or lack of knowledge in how to shoot them..

Never owned a Merkel but they feel good and everyone I have shot was very accurate. Been around them enough to not be concerned with doubling any more than any other double rifle.

I double-discharged my Merkel .500NE. Both my hands kept a firm grip on it. Because I was shooting from a crouching position (something I do fairly regularly), I was tipped over onto my back, legs sticking up in the air, barrels pointing skywards.

Mine was caused by poor / soft steel in the front trigger gradually bending over time until it allowed the rear trigger to be knocked under recoil. I have a new trigger on it now, made by my good friend Alex Beer. All is well.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
I double-discharged my Merkel .500NE. Both my hands kept a firm grip on it. Because I was shooting from a crouching position (something I do fairly regularly), I was tipped over onto my back, legs sticking up in the air, barrels pointing skywards.

Mine was caused by poor / soft steel in the front trigger gradually bending over time until it allowed the rear trigger to be knocked under recoil. I have a new trigger on it now, made by my good friend Alex Beer. All is well.

Now that is a REAL mechanical double discharge in a Merkel double rifle! The soft trigger steel is certainly a maker fault. That is a legitimate complaint.

Is this the same rifle I believe that had the soft front trigger bent all the way back to the back trigger that was posted a picture of here on AR a few months back, and has subsiquintly been fixed? I assume there have been no repeats of that fault. If so that is two with a soft trigger that evidently missed the tempering process!
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