Howdy All:

Okay, another double rifle question. Let's say I was considering moving up from the .470 Kreighoff to a .500 NE and I see a Krieghoff .500 and a Merkel .500 sidelock for sale for more or less the same price. Both rifles used but advertised as being "as new".

Merkel has engraving and nice wood and ejectors. Krieghoff has some engraving and upgraded, really nice wood.

Thoughts on the pros/cons of each rifle? FWIW, I've had the .470 Krieghoff a long time and have shot two buffalo and a tuskless with it so the cocking mechanism is not a 'con' to me, I have gotten used to it. I know a lot of people don't care for it.

Also, I have followed the really informative California Rigby thread so that leads to another question: are Merkel double rifles built on shotgun actions (boxlock and/or sidelock) and for that matter is a Krieghoff built on a shotgun action?

I am just not going to be able to get enough money for that next step up, a Searcy or Heym, so I think it comes down to the K gun or Merkel.

Thanks.

quote:

are Merkel double rifles built on shotgun actions (boxlock and/or sidelock) and for that matter is a Krieghoff built on a shotgun action?

Or for that matter, what does it matter?

Bill, that's sorta part of the question.

Hey Will, to bad someone of your "vast" experience couldn't just answer the question. If you have nothing to contribute why not just let it go. I for one am very interested in this topic and find posts like yours very distracting and just a little pathetic.

If you are used to the K System, then buy the gun that fits you best as all other things will have equalled out.

IMHO fit to the person is paramount on a DR that is used for DG hunting.

Which I am sure you know having been there and done that !!! LOL

I am sure that either rifle would perform admirably, and because they have some differences in operation the choice is purely personal preference.

As to the question of action origin, I agree with Will. There is no difference between a shotgun action and a rifle action, they are the same. Each manufacturer may have some subtle design differences, but if the rifle passes proof, fine.

Of course, you will only ever see the better/stronger shotgun designs used on rifles.... sideclips, third fastener etc etc.

I have both a Merkel .500NE and a Krieghoff .500NE. If I had to do it all over a again, I would buy the Krieghoff and skip the Merkel.

The fundamental problem with these types of questions is that every rifle stock configuration fits everyone differently, as 500N mentions.

I seem to prefer butt stocks that have the minimum drop, like the current version of the Krieghoff but I am afraid the only reason for that preference might be that straight stocks seem to kick a lot less.

On the flip side the Merkel, etc., with large drop in the butt stock like a shotgun are just brutal for me to shoot, because of the stock drop. I don't know why but they just are.

I dearly loved the Heym 470 that I had but it was ***** to shoot. Damn did that thing abuse me! And there are guys that don't seem to know what I'm talking about. The same gun is a powder puff to them. Don't know why.

So if you are buying a DR off the shelf go shoot one since I doubt the mechanics are any different in any real way but to me the stock configuration is the critical feature. I couldn't afford to get a custom stock but if you can buy whatever you want and get it changed to suit you.

When I win the lottery tonight I'll be flying over to WR and get them to build me a straight stocked single trigger eight pound 470. I'll post pics.

P.S. (what a coincidence, PSmith and Post Script, )

The other reason I have the Krieghoff is the fact that I found one with a single trigger. I am not a big fan of the safety/cocker but in reality I found it not to be as big a deal as I was always shooting off my mouth about when I came to actually use it when hunting.

Carrying my flyweight magazine rifle and letting the tracker/gunbearer tote around the heavier DR sounds like the plan. And with that Kreighoff safety I know I shan't get shot in the back by the gunbearer nearly as readily if he was carrying a DR with a shotgun type slide safety.

Bill:

I agree with you 100% on a trip to Westley Richards right after winning the lottery.

Here's a nice one not far from you and it has a single trigger, and it's on sale!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...categoryId=SEARCH_gl

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
When I win the lottery tonight I'll be flying over to WR and get them to
build me a straight stocked single trigger eight pound 470. I'll post pics.

I guess you'll be buyin' two rifles then 'cause everybody knows when
speaking of double rifles TWO triggers are mandatory.

And don't you really mean 9.5 pounds at least for 470 NE?

P.S. I'm nearly through your book and have been enjoying it. Your son's

chapter was a part that I really liked a lot and I am sure you are glad

that you had him as a contributor.

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
Bill:

I agree with you 100% on a trip to Westley Richards right after winning the lottery.

Here's a nice one not far from you and it has a single trigger, and it's on sale!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...categoryId=SEARCH_gl

That is a sweet looking double. I wonder if they will take my truck on trade?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
Bill:

I agree with you 100% on a trip to Westley Richards right after winning the lottery.

Here's a nice one not far from you and it has a single trigger, and it's on sale!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...categoryId=SEARCH_gl

That is a sweet looking double. I wonder if they will take my truck on trade?

That is a friggin nice gun-- held it a month or so ago, to short for me but could make somthing work . Great caliber-- I even know where one can get about 100 peices of 476 brass

The K gun fits me better I like the more straight stock design. sholder both the rifles they are distinctly different. If your used to a K-gun that is where I'd start!


Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

That is a sweet looking double. I wonder if they will take my truck on trade?

Mike, I have to confess I actually tried to figure out if I could get this Westley Richards if I traded ALL of my rifles in at Cabela's. Sadly, even with the Wiebe, the Wilkins, the Dakota, and the Krieghoff I come up short...I hadn't thought about throwing in the GMC truck.

I recognize that I have a problem...isn't that half the battle?

You may recognize that you have a problem, but that don't buy no double rifles.

Or safaris...

The stock on the Merkel makes the recoil felt harder than on the Krieghoff
I would rather use a Krieghoff 500 than a Merkel 470 because of this, and there is quite a difference between these calibers.
So if you are used to the Krieghoff system, stay with it.
My Merkel 470 didnt stay long with me.

What about this: My gundealer, who sells both Kriehoff and Merkel tells me that Merkel uses shotgun stocks on their doubles unless it is a exstra upgraded gun?

Jken: Just so I understand, Merkel uses shotgun stocks for their doubles unless you pay for an upgrade? Also why did you get rid of the Merkel?

quote:

Originally posted by Jken:
What about this: My gundealer, who sells both Kriehoff and Merkel tells me that Merkel uses shotgun stocks on their doubles unless it is a exstra upgraded gun?

This has not been my experience. My Merkel shotgun has a very different stock than any merkel double rifle I have seen. Maybe things are different in Norway.

Since you have the K-gun already and it appears you have been happy with it....I would stay with the K-Gun.

If you what to try somethign different then you cant go wrong with the Merkel.

quote:

Originally posted by Jken:
The stock on the Merkel makes the recoil felt harder than on the Krieghoff
I would rather use a Krieghoff 500 than a Merkel 470 because of this, and there is quite a difference between these calibers.
So if you are used to the Krieghoff system, stay with it.
My Merkel 470 didnt stay long with me.

What about this: My gundealer, who sells both Kriehoff and Merkel tells me that Merkel uses shotgun stocks on their doubles unless it is a exstra upgraded gun?

Kreighoff vs. Merkel comes down to personal preference. I prefer a double rifle that shoulders like a fine shotgun; they point more naturally to me, therefore, the Merkel is my choice.

Recoil? Having shot Merkels in both .470 & .500, I can say I can handle either one and really like the .470 better.

I spend alot of time with the Merkel folks here in the US, and it has been made clear to me that all Merkel DG doubles are built on special reinforced actions.

They tried to use shotgun actions early on, but found that weren't strong enough, so they designed a heftier action just for the DG doubles.

As for the wood? Wood it wood. The key in a DG double is selecting a piece that has a nice straight grain figure, especially near the neck. Highly figured wood in a .470 or .500 is risky business.

When selecting for a shotgun, fancy wood is great, or in a smaller bore DR. Both my 8x75RS Merkel DR and my 47SL Merkel sidelock 12 gauge have very fancy wood. It's OK in these guns.

The guns I have seen for the European market normally have not had as nice wood as in the US. We have been stressing the importance on wood over engraving for at least 8 years now, and the Merkels coming into the US have improved.

For awhile, I am sure Rigby/CA was using Merkel shotgun actions, altering them, and building their dangerous game doubles on them. I think that's where the rumour got out that Merkel uses shotgun actions. It's just not true.

Mike

Jorge: When I bought the Merkel I didnt know much about doubles, or big calibers. It was a beautiful gun in every way, and an offer I couldnt refuse so I jumped on. It kicked like a mule, and left me crying. I had to let it go.

I cant tell what stock Merkel uses, but it feels a lot different. I just hope my gundealer knows.
If I could find a Merkel with a stock like a Krieghoff, at a price I could afford, I would buy it.

I have learned, and tried a lot since my first Merkel, and I am still learning.
That is why I am here on this forum.

I am a newcomer here, and I am impressed what you guys on this forum knows.
What you have done or are able to figure out, and how willing you are to help each other.
I take my hat of, and bow my head.

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
Howdy All:

Okay, another double rifle question. Let's say I was considering moving up from the .470 Kreighoff to a .500 NE and I see a Krieghoff .500 and a Merkel .500 sidelock for sale for more or less the same price. Both rifles used but advertised as being "as new".

Thoughts on the pros/cons of each rifle? FWIW, I've had the .470 Krieghoff a long time and have shot two buffalo and a tuskless with it so the cocking mechanism is not a 'con' to me, I have gotten used to it. I know a lot of people don't care for it.

Also, I have followed the really informative California Rigby thread so that leads to another question: are Merkel double rifles built on shotgun actions (boxlock and/or sidelock) and for that matter is a Krieghoff built on a shotgun action?

I am just not going to be able to get enough money for that next step up, a Searcy or Heym, so I think it comes down to the K gun or Merkel.

Thanks.

PSmith, IMO if you are used to the K-gun, then I'd stick with that brand. There are vast differences between the two rifles, and frankly the K-guns do not fit me well, and the Merkels do. Again which rifle fits you best, and that is most familiar to you is the one I would reccomend, because there is no difference in quality between the two. On the down side the Merkel is a little light for caliber when chambered for 500NE, and I have not shot a K-gun in that chambering.

To answer your question on the actions! The answer is "NO" neither are built on shotgun actions, in fact, it is the other way round with the Merkel at least the shotguns are built on Rifle actions. IOW, the actions for both rifles are made strong enough for the chamberings they are useing! I don't think Krieghoff makes a S/S double shotgun, but Merkel does, and they use the same action as the rifle not the reverse! The stocks on the Merkel, however are different from the shotguns. I have two Merkel double rifles, a 140E-1, 9.3X74R, and a 140-2 Safari 470NE, and I don't find them to be uncomfortable to shoot under hunting conditions.

The de-cocking system on the K-gun is much better than we all though when it was new to everyone. Most think the Blaser system is the same as the K-gun, and that is not so, the K-gun is a far better choice for use on dangerous game because it doesn't automaticlly de-cock the rifle when the barrels are opened for any reason, and the Blaser does. In a quick re-load after fireing the K-gun it automaticlly re-cocks the rifle on opening, so that the rifle is ready to fire as soon as the rifle is closed. The Blaser must be re-cocked manulally if the rifle is opened for ANY REASON before it can be fired again,not something you want in a close charge of a hook-um, or bite & scratch!

The K-gun and the Merkels are not saddled with that dangerous feature!

Good luck with which ever you choose!

quote:

Originally posted by Jken:
Jorge: When I bought the Merkel I didnt know much about doubles, or big calibers. It was a beautiful gun in every way, and an offer I couldnt refuse so I jumped on. It kicked like a mule, and left me crying. I had to let it go.

I cant tell what stock Merkel uses, but it feels a lot different. I just hope my gundealer knows.
If I could find a Merkel with a stock like a Krieghoff, at a price I could afford, I would buy it.

I have learned, and tried a lot since my first Merkel, and I am still learning.
That is why I am here on this forum.

I am a newcomer here, and I am impressed what you guys on this forum knows.
What you have done or are able to figure out, and how willing you are to help each other.
I take my hat of, and bow my head.

Thanks, Jken, I am also a newcomer to the doubles scene and I love it! I bought my entry level Sabbati and it has worked well for me and I hope to move on to other brands as funds permit. Right now I have a Verney-Carron on order but I have not decided on the caliber. The Sabbati is in 450NE. Cheers and welcome! jorge