Chapuis and Verney-Carron are the two specific brands I am looking at. Siace is another brand I occasionally see mentioned. Am I missing other value brands that are mentioned less then Blaser and Merkel?

How do these lesser mentioned brands compare? Is factory support an issue for any of them. In the sub-$10K range, are key features being left off in terms of price?

If this is a often repeated question, please help me improve my searches.

Krieghoff, Beretta, Browning, and Heym's Artemis are doubles in that range that have US market presence.

There are many others in that range as well, particularly O/Us, which do not frequently make it to the US market. A few are Fabarms, FAIR, Finn Classic, Rizzini, Sabatti, and Zanardini.

Price goes up, generally, with caliber, optics, lower production volume, greater fit and finish, side by side versus over/under, and adornment.

I am sure people can help you out here with specific models and features. Can you tell us a little more what you are looking for?

I have a VC/Demas double in 450/400 and I feel it's an excellent double. Fit and finnish are first rate and it is regulated well. Couldn't go wrong with one IMO.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Sid, I have several thousand rounds through a Chapuis 9,3x74R. I have hunted with it quite a bit. It is an excellent hunting rifle.

I have shot several Chapuis 470's, several Krieghoffs, a 500/416, and several 470's, several Merkels, from 8x57, through 9,3x74R, 470, and 500, Searcy's in 470,500 and 577, Blasers in 9,3x74R, 375 H&H and 470.

All of them were good hunting double rifles.

I would not be afraid to hunt DG with any of them.

I prefer the Heym in a new made double. It is a step up in price over the others, but worth it IMHO.

Sid, what calibre are you considering?

when you say "Cheaper"
I think of Baikal and as rough in appearance as they may be--they have shot well.

Chapuis 9.3 X74 I can not consider cheap-- running 5 to 7K, nor a Merkel 470 @ 7 to 10K.

I think you need too set budget and choose features.
Though I appreciated the Krieghoff Cocking/Safety actuator many others do not.

In turn, I do not care for the Blasers's intermediate breech block ,others do; nor do they or the Merkels "feel" in my hands as well as the K, or Hyem.

The Heym is the most "classic" on the "new" guns in appearance by my eye and very well built. (As was the K gun)

A brand spanking new rifle will on average always cost you more in the names you mentioned.

While this is not news, many people buying doubles seem to shy away from the used ones,I think it's not worth the difference---
Except, a new Heym is fitted to you ,if you order the weapon.

I have a Baikal that I bought to take to a DRSS hog hunt as a "joke". I think I paid less than $300 for it and never shot it before I got to Texas. I didn't even have any ammo and just bought the first box of .308 Winchester I could find.

Dang if the thing didn't shoot 2" at 50 yards with the crummy iron sights that it has. Tony Black shot it even better than that, if I remember correctly.

Now, that's a cheap double!

That 308 double shot pretty good.

At one time Chapuis was getting a lot of mileage out of telling everyone they made the most double rifles of anyone on the planet. I don't think that was true then, and I know with Baikal it isn't true now.

Chapuis makes a quality gun, and it is a much higher quality gun than those made by most of the cheaper Italian firms, especially Sabatti and Zoli.

Blaser and Krieghoff both have rip off pricing on double rifles in America. If you take a look at www.frankonia.de and look at prices it will do more than piss you off. Even when you calculate the 20% German GST already in the price, and convert to dollars.

Heym over under rifles in the base model are around $4500-5500. This is very good value when you consider they are regulated with Hornady ammo.

I know where there is a Blaser S-2 in 30-06 that is new for $5500. It has very nice wood.

I like over under guns and doppenboch drillings more than I like standard side by side double rifles. If you feel the same you can get a double rifle or a double rifle drilling cheaper than you can usually get a side by side.

Hallowells in Montana has my ultimate gun. A Merkel 303 over and under with a Docter 1.75-6 in 375 engraved with moose and bears. Looks a lot like a rifle made for Russian aristrocracy in the 1920s, with modern optics.

The Russians are capable of making a very fine rifle, however I do not find Baikal to be very nice. Functional yes, nice no. Some of the best AK's ever are Russian. Some of their former East Block neighbors though seem to have the entry level firearm figured out much better.

Heym's are very nice rifles but, they are really not a "cheaper" or "entry level" rifle for average people. SxS's seem to be uniformly more expensive then O/U for reasons that are not obvious to me. I'm assuming that one of several reasons you don't see larger African calibers in an O/U is the cartridge size and length would require too much articulation in the action to actually slide the cartridge into the rifle.

For caliber choices in entry level rifles, I would limit them to two: 9.3x74R and 470NE.

Chapuis and Verney-Carron seem to be the common starting points for DGR SxS and cheaper O/U rifles. Web searches turn up Merkel and Bernadelli O/U models that are priced in the same general range but, most people like myself have never seen them in person.

I have been reading up on SIACE recently being more of an O/U shotgun guy. I noticed they have what appears to be a nice O/U model in 9.3x74R and 45/70 with features found on higher cost rifles like a hinged trigger.

In terms of price point or cheaper, anything over half the price of a car is just too expensive for most people IMHO (heck most people would argue anything over 1/4 the cost your car is too expensive ). That logic puts the entry level O/U doubles in at the starting point and rules out most European SxS doubles. In my own case, I could sell some of my lesser used firearms to help purchase a superior rifle but, that still won't get me to a brand new Heym and leave enough money to pay for a hunt. After all, what good is it to have a fine rifle or shotgun and then to be unable to afford to hunt with it?

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
Looks a lot like a rifle made for Russian aristrocracy in the 1920s, with modern optics.

Except that the Russian "aristrocracy" was dead or in hiding by 1920.

I know that Blasers are not everyone's cup of tea but, If you are so inclined, you can make a great deal on a new Blaser S2. Alex Roy at EuroOtics will sell you a .375, .500/.416,.470, or a .500 for wll under $9000. I think Safarikid has an unfired .500 (or perhaps a .470) in the classifieds for $7500. In my mind, if you can get a .500 for $7500, that's heck of a deal.

Dave

If I was going to get something for $7500, I would buy the Chapuis .470 in the Classifieds. I think that is a far nicer rifle than the Blaser. My $0.02.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If I was going to get something for $7500, I would buy the Chapuis .470 in the Classifieds. I think that is a far nicer rifle than the Blaser. My $0.02.

A lmost any double rifle is better than a Blaser! Thats my $0.02. If I were going to buy a combi-cocking double rifle it would be a Krieghoff, at least it re-cocks it's self when broken to re-load after firing the rifle, the Blaser does not! That my friends, is not a system you want when trying to stop something that wants to ram your butt against the nearest tree trunk, or rip your face off with a large clawed forepaw!

In the real world I believe the best bargain in the double rifle working class double rifle field the Merkel double rifle is still the bargain others wish they were! They are as strong as a bank vault, and everyone I have ever shot has been very accurate. The new ones now have selective ejectors in the Safari models as well. They ain't fancy, but they will be shooting long after that $8K is forgotten! By the way Butch has a no frills field grade for under $10K, made ti fit!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
Looks a lot like a rifle made for Russian aristrocracy in the 1920s, with modern optics.

Except that the Russian "aristrocracy" was dead or in hiding by 1920.

Looks like I missed it by a couple years, Alexander died 17 July 1918. But he lost his Monarchy in 1917.

Anyway here's the gun.







http://www.hallowellco.com/merkel_323%20375.htm

I have bought a couple rifles from Morris at Hallowell. He does obtain some very nice pieces. I have also found him to be flexible in his pricing. However, don't approach Morris with a "good ole' boy" slang-talking demeanor. Morris has the manners of the finest English butler, and prefers to deal in gentlemanly terms. I have a friend who Morris won't even talk to. Also, watch your emails to him...he will immediately pass judgement if your first communication with him is filled with misspellings and poor grammar, and you will get nowhere in your dealings with him....Biebs

Have to contribute.
Two makes are missing: Antonio Zoli and CZ who makes a double under the Brno brand.

The Zoli you can do a couple of searches on - earlier their reputation seemed to be of varying quality, but the recent buyers appear to have been very satisfied, indeed.
I've been looking at one for a year now; and I think that once I stumble on a cheap one I'll buy it.

The Brno is far less known, but I had an e-mail exchange with a fella from Canada who bought one and seemed pleased; although he commented it being a lot rougher than the old Brnos which were hand-finished (during the Communist era when labor cost next to nothing in then-Czechoslovakia).
The accuracy is be OK, though, as per the reputation of CZ/Brno; and the price certainly is affordable.

For both you can also get other caliber rifle barrels, as well as rifle/shot combo barrels and 20ga shotgun barrels making them versatile, indeed.

- Lars

[URL=Verney-Carron O/UDouble Rifle, 9.3X74R ,NIB]Verney-Carron O/UDouble Rifle, 9.3X74R ,NIB[/URL]...........2,400 !!! in Gunbroker

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If I was going to get something for $7500, I would buy the Chapuis .470 in the Classifieds. I think that is a far nicer rifle than the Blaser. My $0.02.

What Mike said.

I don't think the Chapuis is a "nicer" rifle than the S2. Different maybe, More traditional for sure but the S2 is a one of the most accurate, strongest doubles on the market. Most of us can't afford a Heym. The Safari S2 give us a durable, accurate rifle at half the cost. If you prefer a Merkel or a Searcy, I say go for it. I would love to have a Searcy but the wait is a year and I actually prefer the S2 over the Merkel. I have heard it here before... Why can't someone make a double we can afford? Well, the S2 is that gun and I don't care a wit that it is different. They work and everyone I have ever talked to that had one says they shoot like they had eyes. I have an R93. That's not everyone's cup of tea either but I can tell you that it is a superb take down rifle with a great trigger and a great barrel right out of the box. Don't be afraid of something new!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I have bought a couple rifles from Morris at Hallowell. He does obtain some very nice pieces. I have also found him to be flexible in his pricing. However, don't approach Morris with a "good ole' boy" slang-talking demeanor. Morris has the manners of the finest English butler, and prefers to deal in gentlemanly terms. I have a friend who Morris won't even talk to. Also, watch your emails to him...he will immediately pass judgement if your first communication with him is filled with misspellings and poor grammar, and you will get nowhere in your dealings with him....Biebs

With his nose that far up in the air,he needs an umbrella to avoid drowning when he goes out in the rain! I would think he wouldn't even touch the dirty old money anyone wanted to spend with him!

...............Talk about a snob!

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
I have a VC/Demas double in 450/400 and I feel it's an excellent double. Fit and finnish are first rate and it is regulated well. Couldn't go wrong with one IMO.

An "Azur" SxS model, I take it?

I handled a second-hand o/u Verney-Carron in 9,3x74R today.
Points well, and seemed solid enough at quick glance.
A couple of questions to anyone who might be in the know:
- who manufactures scope mounts that fit the VC system?
- why the hell is the safety catch next to the trigger inside the trigger guard rather than where it's supposed to be? Can this be altered without too much problem?
- I posted a question about adjustable doubles holding their regulation. Any views with regards to the VC's patented regulation system? Actually experiences would be much more appreciated than views...

@ 1300€ it was attractively priced.
A new one would set me back i.r.o. 3500€ (wasn't able to find the price of a new one in Finland).

- Lars/Finland

Mac, I have just done a bit of business with Mr. Hallowell and I don't think he is a snob at all. He was very pleasant and helpful and I am sure I asked some dumb questions.

Morris Hallowell is a class act and I am inclined to do more business with him.

j

quote:

Originally posted by Josh A.:
Mac, I have just done a bit of business with Mr. Hallowell and I don't think he is a snob at all. He was very pleasant and helpful and I am sure I asked some dumb questions.

Morris Hallowell is a class act and I am inclined to do more business with him.

j

Josh opinions vary! However anyone who will not speak to a person simply because he dosn't spell well, is a snob IMO! I know some damn fine people who neither read, nor write, but one thing they are not is snobs.